I have a new idea

[Kaspar]

This is just an idea that goes against basic modern thinking.

Is it possible that we in this age are no more civilised than we have been since the beggining of human life?

I think it is. The reason that we think we are better is because we are more technologically advanced. I think that we could still morally be equally civilised.
The problem is I have no proof because what has died has died. Still I don't think there is any evidence to suggest they weren't as civilised as us.

If anyone wants to argue with me and say that we are developing as kind, thoughtful and compassionate human beings...Let one hundred flowers bloom

Peace

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I hope I dont offend anyone here, but I would say that the evidence lies in the old testament of the bible, where we see that however-many-thousand years ago, a man who raped a girl would simply be required to marry her. Or in the quran, where if your wife disobeyed you you were told to beat her.

Ancient texts are full of such examples of how morality has changed over the years.

 

[Kaspar]

I hope I dont offend anyone here, but I would say that the evidence lies in the old testament of the bible, where we see that however-many-thousand years ago, a man who raped a girl would simply be required to marry her. Or in the quran, where if your wife disobeyed you you were told to beat her.

Ancient texts are full of such examples of how morality has changed over the years.

True so maybe however-many-thousand years ago men were allowed to beat their wives, (I think if you look at bananabrains explaination it isn't a raped girl but a couple who are having sex - a two sided affair - being caught are required to marry)

But how many men beat their wives still? and even if they don't beat their wives with the amount of acohol consumed in the UK and US i wouldn't rule out the possibility that there is still domestic violence on a large scale.
Also how many poor quality mainstream ganster rap tunes say beat you B**ch if she disobeys you? and that cult has a large following.

 

[Blessed87]

I think you're right about the world not becoming more "civilized." Yes, what's accepted in a society has changed, like what's barbaric and what's not, but people aren't "advancing" down at their core being, the just have more information at their disposal.
I think the reason why people are so big on "mankind's advancement" is because people believe that things are evolving and getting better. On a large scale, things aren't getting better. There's still a ton of suffering all over the world. From a spiritual perspective, it'll never get better until this earth is done with, because good and evil are at war.

 

[Bellator]

I agree, humankind in general is more civilized than it ever has been. I think this is largely because of modern communication. Throughout history, groups of people have hated each other because they didn't know much about them. They didn't know what it was like to be a part of that other group. European colonialism and expansion in years 1500-1700 happened becasue they couldn't see the perspective of the "barbarians" they were conquering. When the US whent to war in Iraq, there was opposition from a lot of americans becasue they know that war implies death, destruction, and suffering. Even 50 years ago, people would have blindly said "ok" to war becasuse of the notions of valor and nationalism. (I'm not trying to get into a political argument here, but we can all agree that war in general causes suffering) I think World societies are generally becoming more peacful. I also think this will eventually lead to a "golden age"/the "enlightenment of mankind". Or, maybe I'm too optomistic, and the apocolypse will happen in a few years

 

[Satanist]

Mankind is not more civilised than before.It just seems that way becouse all so called civilisations always think they are the best and becouse they never really knows about anything other than themselves.
To day most people doesn't really know anything about other nations ,they just have predjudice and think they know.

Even in the dark age people though they understud other peoples which they didn't.
Most poeple still think all other cultures are just like theirs
and there isn't a chance that you will meet a person of a culture that is different becouse they would kill you or redirect you to what fake turist corner you expect.

There isn't much civiliation whatsoever. Nihlism is spread. Most people are still ignorant of the finer aspects of art and philosophy.
Children are raised by Television and religious extremist group isolate children in private schools.

Teenagers still rape to get their first score.

And what do we use our social skills and resourses for?

Recreation.
We use civilisation for fun, f*cks, drugs(including alchohol and Tobaco),friends and status.

Without those human needs. There is no point.
So there is no glorified civilization.
Just a superficiant word.

There is no human value. Just character. the sum of abilities.
That is what culture is used for and if you aren't good for anything then you are in deep ****.
There is always a reason for love or hate
so generally people deserve what they get.
Everyone must suffer bacouse there is always a price
which also is a weakness.
In some way we are all evil.

It's a circle.

Family values are just another animalistic expression
and not better in any way.
Any animal can sit in it's lair and gather resourses untill it dies of overweight.

 

[Kaspar]

I agree, humankind in general is more civilized than it ever has been. I think this is largely because of modern communication. Throughout history, groups of people have hated each other because they didn't know much about them. They didn't know what it was like to be a part of that other group. European colonialism and expansion in years 1500-1700 happened becasue they couldn't see the perspective of the "barbarians" they were conquering. When the US whent to war in Iraq, there was opposition from a lot of americans becasue they know that war implies death, destruction, and suffering. Even 50 years ago, people would have blindly said "ok" to war becasuse of the notions of valor and nationalism. (I'm not trying to get into a political argument here, but we can all agree that war in general causes suffering) I think World societies are generally becoming more peacful. I also think this will eventually lead to a "golden age"/the "enlightenment of mankind". Or, maybe I'm too optomistic, and the apocolypse will happen in a few years

Ahh you are very optimistic and I do still believe your arguement a little about the getting more civilised but personally I have begun to think that the dark ages were actually equally as tolerant and knowledgeable as we are today.
For example in spain before the christians conquered the Marsh Arabs a lot of different nationalities were living together and tolerated each other. Another example is Jerusalem (before the recent Palestinian-Israeli conflict), Jews, muslims and christians alike lived together in peace.

I think that you overate the communications arguement. Although we can more easily spread information very quickly it isn't reliable and doesn't have a physical presence. I think that if muslims are going to Mosque outside your house you will actually tolerate and accept them more than if you surf through a Islamic site or find a link to one. Also on the internet you have the chance of finding a racist site or one which is biased against muslims like comparativerelgions (the one without a - inbetween) which i think Brian agreed is quite biased and a poor souce of information.

Also even today we have conflicts between major ways of living and philosophys. George Bushes War on Terror, which is about imprisioning Arabs who are often muslim and then getting into power by saying he is a good christian is showing an inbuilt prejudice.
Secondly there are lots of race riots that have happened in the West which show intolerance and hatred not to mention the anti-immigrant or refugee propaganda spread though the press on a regular basis. In Europe there is a common dislike for Gypsies that seems to be acceptable to alot of people.

I don't like to paint such a negative picture of human relations around the world because things such as comparative-religion exists with many other bridge building organisations. Not to mention the tolerance experienced where i live in Hackney in London which is very multicultural with lots of different ethinic cultures.

I think my arguement is that even though now we have lots of complex and interesting methods of education and toleration we underate the respectable atmosphere that would have be present in ancient towns. Where so many different faiths and religions lived at peace together. It is possible that alot of the people back in the day where probably as experienced as us?
Didn't Jesus study with some buddhist monks in his teenage years?

I think the parrallels between the past and now are very stiking and alot can be learned by studying the Bible or simply old literature.

yours gracefully
Kaspar

 

[Vajradhara]

Didn't Jesus study with some buddhist monks in his teenage years?

Hi Kaspar,

there is no evidence of this at all. it is, however, a fairly popular story and, considering the derth of details in the Bible... it has some plausibility. no evidence, but plausible. perhaps that is enough?

metta,

~v

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I do believe that we as a (global) society are slowly getting the idea that communication and negotiation is the best way to deal with conflicts. But whether that is true or not, I agree with the premise that as a species we are as violent as ever. A hundred years ago (or even less) public executions were the main form of entertainment, and the more gore the better. These days, we watch horror movies instead. It doesn't matter that it's just actors with red make-up, the impulse is the same. We watch auto races hoping someone will crash horribly (that's always the best part when that happens), and then it's replayed four times, from different angles. Documentaries and news reports and Oprah episodes about murderers are irresistible. Don't get me wrong - I think it's a very good thing that people watch movies where actors pretend to get violently killed, instead of watching the real thing in the town square. But the human impulse to see blood and guts and death as entertainment is just as present nowadays as it was during the height of the French Revolution, Wild West, or any other time and place usually put forth as uncivilized.

 

[Bandit]

I do believe that we as a (global) society are slowly getting the idea that communication and negotiation is the best way to deal with conflicts. But whether that is true or not, I agree with the premise that as a species we are as violent as ever. A hundred years ago (or even less) public executions were the main form of entertainment, and the more gore the better. These days, we watch horror movies instead. It doesn't matter that it's just actors with red make-up, the impulse is the same. We watch auto races hoping someone will crash horribly (that's always the best part when that happens), and then it's replayed four times, from different angles. Documentaries and news reports and Oprah episodes about murderers are irresistible. Don't get me wrong - I think it's a very good thing that people watch movies where actors pretend to get violently killed, instead of watching the real thing in the town square. But the human impulse to see blood and guts and death as entertainment is just as present nowadays as it was during the height of the French Revolution, Wild West, or any other time and place usually put forth as uncivilized.

i feel the same & have thought of all these things as well. the impulse only seems to have been curved through hollywood or some other form of entertainment. feeding people to lions was considered fun.
the ones who like to feed the lions & present some type of torture, dont get the picture until they are the ones being fed to the lion & being tortured. Quite often i dont think they even get it then.

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I think you're all nuts. It is clear in my eyes that humans are a lot more civilised today than we have ever been in the past.

Look at entertainment, OK we still have violent movies and video games, but what are the odds of staging a gladiator match in a major stadium today? People will simply not accept two guys killing each other as entertainment.

Look at politics. With institutions like the UN and the EU, there is no more blatant imperialism. One county cannot simply invade another for no other reason than a desire to rule. OK, Mr Bush is trying, but even he, at the head of the most powerful nation on earth, must justify himself to the rest of the world.

Look at society. In the past it was assumed that the children of the rulers would rule and the children of the workers would work. Today we have true democracy, the people choose their leader, and if that leader does a bad job, (s)he is removed from power.

Look at War. Ever hear that old saying, all's fair in love and war? well not any more. In the past, torture was completely accepted, the torturee was, after all, your enemy. War crimes? no such thing 200 years ago, you could do whatever the hell you liked.

Look at education. Today we demand that all our children be educated, we will not accept ignorance any longer. Even in countries which are too poor to educate, efforts are being made, there are so many charities, we are trying so hard.

Look at medicine, we assume that everyone has a right to medical care, and when we discover that certain groups of people cannot get it because they cannot pay, we are outraged. I cant speak for the rest of the world, but in my country, all healthcare is freely available to all.

Look at us here. We, of so many different faiths and nationalities come here to discuss our differences. As long as this kind of dialog exists there will be no more crusades, no more spanish inquisitions and no more of the other barbarisms that have happened in the past in the name of religion.

Yes, I know that there are holes to be poked in each of these exampled, there are many exeptions and there are many parts of the world where much is still to be done, but we are onn the right path, we are making progress, we are, collectively, greater than we have ever been.

 

[Bandit]

[Awaiting_the_fifth]I think you're all nuts. It is clear in my eyes that humans are a lot more civilised today than we have ever been in the past.

i know we are all nuts. more civilised, yes. but it was not that long ago (a century) that things were still very barbaric.

Look at entertainment, OK we still have violent movies and video games, but what are the odds of staging a gladiator match in a major stadium today? People will simply not accept two guys killing each other as entertainment.

i dont know about that. it does not seem that far away for humans to go back into the woods & caves & create a posee. depends on where ya live is what you see.

Look at politics. With institutions like the UN and the EU, there is no more blatant imperialism. One county cannot simply invade another for no other reason than a desire to rule. OK, Mr Bush is trying, but even he, at the head of the most powerful nation on earth, must justify himself to the rest of the world.

this true, but it might have a negative over time & the global system put us right back into the Roman Empire.

Look at society. In the past it was assumed that the children of the rulers would rule and the children of the workers would work. Today we have true democracy, the people choose their leader, and if that leader does a bad job, (s)he is removed from power.

i agree for the most part.

Look at War. Ever hear that old saying, all's fair in love and war? well not any more. In the past, torture was completely accepted, the torturee was, after all, your enemy. War crimes? no such thing 200 years ago, you could do whatever the hell you liked.

they are still doing whatever they like, depends on what side takes you as a prisoner.

Look at education. Today we demand that all our children be educated, we will not accept ignorance any longer. Even in countries which are too poor to educate, efforts are being made, there are so many charities, we are trying so hard.

i agree

Look at medicine, we assume that everyone has a right to medical care, and when we discover that certain groups of people cannot get it because they cannot pay, we are outraged. I cant speak for the rest of the world, but in my country, all healthcare is freely available to all.

i agree

Look at us here. We, of so many different faiths and nationalities come here to discuss our differences. As long as this kind of dialog exists there will be no more crusades, no more spanish inquisitions and no more of the other barbarisms that have happened in the past in the name of religion.

yes, but if you look outside of CR on most boards that just speak only there religion, you see a whole different picture.

Yes, I know that there are holes to be poked in each of these exampled, there are many exeptions and there are many parts of the world where much is still to be done, but we are onn the right path, we are making progress, we are, collectively, greater than we have ever been.

i agree

 

[pohaikawahine]

today we and our children talk about things in a new light .... we all watch the destruction of our world by man-made objects and activities as well as nature (given the tremendous power in the latest hurricanes and the tsunami) .... the children around here learn and feel, they do fund raisers through read-a-thons to help children in other places .... small steps, but beginnings ....


we are nuturing a generation of great minds and it was Einstein that said "great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" .... Aldous Huxley "science has explained nothing: the more we know, the more fantastic the world becomes and the more profound the surrounding darkness" and physicist Max Planck "a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." the new generation accepts as fact many things that were not believed in the near past (i don't speak of the ancient past because i believe there were more evolved minds) .... and they are evolving to new concepts and more universality in terms of human relationships and their place in this world ..... where i live inter-racial inter-faith marriage are so common place that our children do not even question these differences .... they are more than not simply life .... we are all more than we think we are and we are all looking within to find out more, we want a better world therefore we can create a better world with our own collective consciousness .... the frequencies of our mind waves begin to match and the waves get higher and higher .... to my mind, yes we are getting better and evolving .... I'll work on whatever mind set will insure another seven generations and another and another .... "moment by moment, hour by hour, day by day -- this is how we live our lives, and this is how we change the world. with each breath, eah thought each action" (author unknown but greatly appreciated) .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

 

[Kaspar]

Awww what a lovely thread I have started. People have just written optimistic, hopeful and heart warming posts. Thanks pohaikawahine and Awaiting_the_fifth

I am really glad to be in discussion with such people. My point is that although we as people are so positive and forward looking, there always were people like us who got on well together, could never dream of being cruel and wouldn't ever exploit a soul.

The fact about the evidence that awaiting the fifth gave is that now we have more institutionalised humanity that maybe wasn't so strong back in the middle ages for example. Unfortunately people living in peace, getting on well and leading positive lives doesn't make the news which means its unlikely to make history. It is only the terrible things that poeple want the next generation to remember giving us the illusion that we are making progress towards humanity.

I feel guilty to call it an illusion because it is people like us who do make a difference that is maybe worse to bad or good to better. Not a huge noticeable change but still a change nevertheless. I argue for us today to look back at history with more admiration. That some of the people of the past were more civilised and cutured than we would like to think. To look for the examples that don't make big history, of all the little towns who have lived together in peace, or all the schools in poor countrys who have provided education through thick and thin.

I think one factor that leads us to believe we are so much less desperate than the people of the past is the pure fact that every person who reads this post has access to the internet which implies they also have a house to sleep in, food and water and a loving family. Unfortunately this puts us in a biased situation when thinking about life. When these basic needs are taken away and we do not have to comfort to be humane. All evils can become neccessary.
"A hungry man is an angry one"
When people are forced to fight for survival they often will put morallity second.

To backtrack. I don't mean to offend CR and saw we are blind to the reality in the world even though that is one point I have made. I intend for this to be about digging deeper into history past all the well remembered evils to the forgotten goods that made life bearable for so many people.

Peace