Why did Jesus have to die?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Awaiting_the_fifth, Sep 29, 2005.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Without the LIFE of Christ, there would be no importance to His death. Jesus suffered at the hands of men, not at the hands of God. In His life, He was the perfect man. In His death He showed that God had enobled man to such an extent that man's spiritual existence was forever and worthy to be in the company of God.

    One (death) is meaningless without the other (life).

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  2. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    please do not confuse father and son relationships here on earth and what jesus christ and god the father relationships are. these are two different things. first off, you were born earthly father and mother, but jesus was conceived a king and messiah from the spirit of god and from a righteous virgin. this is how god wanted it, born a man to die for us, because he was born into this world, he is called gods son. second, jesus is the word of god, the son of god with the authority of god, without sin and holy, crowned with glory and honor. we are none of these with our earthly fathers. so to base your reasoning on earthly son and father relationships and with jesus christ and god the father relationship is going to be incorrect to say the least.

    (John 10:30-33)
    [Jesus said] "I and the Father are One."
    The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
    Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

    Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."


    (1John 5:8~12)
    [For there are three that bear witness in heaven:
    the Father, the word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One.]
    And there are three that bear witness on earth:
    the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
    The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself;
    the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar,
    because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.
    And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
    He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
    (1John 5:20)
    And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding,
    in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
    This is the true God and eternal life.

    I pray that you see jesus christ, the holy spirit, and the father are one, because god is so holy, jesus christ and the holy spirit are different manifestations of god to connect with us.
     
  3. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    Jehovah God, and his first-born son are in unity of purpose they are one in purpose and Jesus was willing to come down from his heavenly home to acomplish Gods purpose But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet...hebrews10;12-13

    Jesus said to them: "My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work....John 4;34


    (John 6:38) because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me

    I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do..... john 17;4



     
  4. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff Well-Known Member

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    Again, the question was, Why did Jesus have to die? Not who is/was Jesus. But since the matter has been raised, why did Jesus pray, in the Garden of Gethsemane, "not my will but thine"? How can God have two simultaneous opposite wills?

    Anyway, just quoting irrelevant scripture does not answer the question. If Jesus's purpose was merely to be a sacrifice then it could have happened any time. Presumably if he had been killed as an infant, then the prophesies would have predicted just that. It is not incumbant on anyone to deliberately do something just so the prophesies seem to come out right.

    This is a forum for discussion. A prerequisite might be that we are willing to question our native dogmas, rather than merely repeating them.

    The fact that Jesus had a ministry means that it was important for him to live and teach, and important for us to take good heed of what he taught, and not just think of him as a sacrifice object.
     
  5. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    yes you are right how can jesus be God when he prayed to his father in the garden of gethsemane , he never prayed to himself did he? which again proves he was not God the bible is always right, the dogmas that dont match up to the bible dont really fit with the bible but as you say there are dogmas out there but its always best to stick with what the bible says
     
  6. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Thank you, Cliff. This is the first post on the thread that makes sense to me. It occurs to me that Jesus of Nazareth was put to death for the exact same reason as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Both men were challenging the status quo, and both men upset a great number of people (and controlling authorities) in doing so. Allow me to demonstrate (sic) ...

    In Jesus' case, it was the cinedrion (sanhedrin) which most resented him. The Roman authorities also saw the threat he posed to their rulership, although we should note that Pilate wanted nothing to do with Jesus ... and even provided an opportunity to exhonerate him. The Jewish people would not have it, and they chose Barabbas instead - a criminal vs. the one who came as Messias.

    This is just a presentation of historical fact so far, my opinion being that Christ was indeed the Jewish Messiah. But what we know from history, even if details are sketchy, is that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified like a common criminal (as Barabbas would have been) ... and left for dead (even if perhaps this was not the case). We might say he was murdered, in that regard - crucified by a world which could not (yet) accept him as Saviour and Teacher.

    Certainly we must assume that Christ would have preferred to continue his ministry of healing, teaching, and demonstrating through loving service how Humanity is meant to live in cooperation and harmony - with each other, and with the other kingdoms of nature. To suggest that 30 years were spent in preparation for a 3-year ministry, whose wonderful crescendo of accomplishments was only for the purpose of an abrupt & anticlimactic crucifixion, with the most bizzare of all denouements - the resulting possibility of vicarious atonement & remission of sins ... is altogether absurd if not outright blasphemy!

    That one must believe in such absurdity to be "christian" is, imo, one of the greatest triumphs of the powers of evil in the world today ... and in fact, the true story of the Nazarene and his great sacrifice is so carefully guarded in some areas, such as the southern United States (as well as the Vatican) that to challenge these ideas may well lead to lynching, "dragging," or - even worse - excommunication! *shudder* And make no mistake, lynchings & draggings are simply Biblical stonings in today's guise. Remember - those nice men that shot Dr. MLK, Jr. were certainly all "good christian folk" ... and so you see how worthwhile all this hogwash about being saved is. "By their fruits ye shall know them!"

    Certainly we are all free do as Voltaire suggests in my .sig line, and thus it seems perfectly valid to me to believe that Christ was crucified and left for dead - but actually survived the ordeal, was brought to the Essenes to be healed & recuperated, and went on to fulfil his mission in the only way the world would allow ... incognito. And thus he labors on, with his elect - each of whom has the same power to heal and work wonders (mysterious things, because as yet unknown - certainly not "miracles") as he did. And he is aided by the Devas (or angels), who are known in life (incarnation) as well as in the hereafter.

    Only last week I came across information detailing this idea (of Christ surviving the crucifixion), which at one time might not have made sense to me. Now things are different. Read it here, and remember - that most of the Bible has been edited, revised, reworded, chopped away, paraphrased, twisted ... and yet, yes, you are right, carefully preserved that you may enjoy it in its original English form, the way Jesus & his disciples spoke & wrote it themselves, telling stories around the campfire as it were, and recording them with pefect, godlike accuracy. Hint: There is a vested interest in keeping people dumbed down & not asking too many questions. Think that's a conspiracy? You're darn right it is!

    Let's see, sheep ... goats ... and the injunction to be, "Harmless, as doves, and wise, as serpents." Goats, they charge straight up the mountain-side, while sheep will slowly wind their way around - a sure path, but slower, and sheep can be amazingly lemming-like. Just look around.

    Yeah, I may be a snake, not a winged-one, and perhaps a bit un-dove-like, but I'll say again, if you're still asking the question why Jesus "died for your sins" ... then think again. Point-blank: Jesus did not die for our sins, he died because of them. WORD
    the apostate
     
  7. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    jesus christ, the holy spirit, and god are one.
    "
    For there are three that bear witness in heaven:the Father, the word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One."

    god sent his son, to be born on earth, conceived of the gods spirit and the virgin mary.
    "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

    jesus christ is also the word of god.
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

    god cannot come here let alone die here, he is spirit, so he creates himself in a different manner which is jesus, born of flesh and blood to die for for our salvation.
    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

    jesus prayed because he needed to speak to god in heaven, because being on earth jesus was faced with all the same temptations of man. as a man on earth we need gods strength and we pray. this is very important to realize. not to say "see jesus and god are seperate". he also prayed to set an example of how man is to pray to god, and this is very important to realize as well. before christ came the laws of moses were not enough, but christ came to fulfill and perfect the Way. you can follow gods laws and recite them, but without the love of christ in your heart and his salvation, trying to reach god directly we fall short, which is why he came and died and rose again.
     
  8. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the compliment Taijasi, but I have no trouble believing that Christ died. Neither am I very comfortable with the idea of an elite, whether of seers or priests or anything else.

    The problem is that centuries of tradition have given us only one (well, maybe more) way of reading the scriptures. Some of those ways may be quite mistaken. Some of the NT authors may also have been quite mistaken. They were in some ways in a worse position to understand than we are today. We know, for example, that Jesus didn't just pop back to Heaven to get reinforcements for his imminent glorious return. We are also rather more sophisticated in our understanding than a collection of rather dense fishermen (no disrespect - Jesus said it first).

    I am an agnostic when it comes to redemption. Jesus never mentioned it apart from one mention at the Last Supper, and not in all versions of that. He only made one reference IIRC to the Holy Spirit as such. These constructions were put on events after he died. I don't know: I think if he died to save the world (not just people - see Paul) then he died for all of us irrespective. One day I shall know for sure, but I think it will be with my last breath.

    In the mean time I intend to live out Jesus's teaching to the best of my ability, knowing the dazzling beauty of God's love and spreading it as liberally as I can.
     
  9. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    So why did Jesus have to die,? lets see what Gods word the bible tells us ,The Messiah had to die if mankind was to be saved. To understand why, we must think back to the garden of Eden and try to grasp the enormity of what Adam and Eve lost when they rebelled against God. Eternal life had been set before them! As children of God, they also enjoyed a direct relationship with him. But when they rejected Jehovah’s rulership, they lost all of that and brought sin and death upon the human race.—Romans 5:12

    It was as though our first parents had squandered a vast fortune, plunging themselves into a pit of debt. Adam and Eve passed that debt on to their offspring. Because we were not born perfect and sinless, every one of us is sinful and dying. When we get sick or say something hurtful that we wish we could take back, we are experiencing the effects of our inherited debt—human imperfection. (Romans 7:21-25) Our only hope lies in regaining what Adam lost. However, we cannot earn perfect human life. Since all imperfect humans commit sin, all of us earn death, not life.—Romans 6:23.

    Yet, could something be offered in exchange for the life that Adam forfeited? God’s standard of justice demands balance, "soul for soul." (Exodus 21:23) So a life had to be offered to pay for the life that was lost. Not just any life would suffice. Psalm 49:7, 8 says of imperfect humans: "Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother, nor give to God a ransom for him; (and the redemption price of their soul is so precious that it has ceased to time indefinite)." Is the situation therefore hopeless? No, indeed.​

    In the Hebrew language, the word "ransom" signifies the sum paid to redeem a captive and also denotes equivalency. Only a man with perfect human life could offer up the equivalent of what Adam lost. After Adam, the only perfect man born on earth was Jesus Christ. Hence, the Bible calls Jesus "the last Adam" and assures us that Christ "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all." (1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Whereas Adam passed death on to his children, Jesus’ legacy is life eternal. First Corinthians 15:22 explains: "Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." Appropriately, then, Jesus is called "Eternal Father."—Isaiah 9:6, 7...so he died to give us back everlasting life if we want it

     
  10. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff Well-Known Member

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    So if I deserve death, why am I not dead? Answer: Because I am sustained by God's love. If He wanted me dead, I'd be dead. He doesn't, that's why I'm alive, and will remain so at least as long as my body allows.

    I don't know whether I'm interested in a life extension anyway. I'm not very afraid of death. You know with some Christians it all comes down to ME ME ME. How can you really serve God when at the back of your mind you're thinking "I'm getting my reward later". That's just self-interest not loving God.

    I descend from my soap-box. :) Best regards, VC
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    The theologian John Milbank wrote an essay entitled "Why did Jesus die?"

    Without going into detail, I shall highlight a couple of points.

    Christ was the first to propose a journey to Jerusalem. If the account of the Passion is to be believed, then although he did not know the outcome, he certainly knew the risks, and so did his disciples: "Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him" (John 11:16).

    What then follows a whole succession of 'disownings' or 'abandonments' that led to the Cross.

    Milbank writes:
    "Who then really killed Jesus and why? And why did Jesus submit to this? The only consistent thread in these [(Gospel] narratives is that Christ was constantly handed over, or abandoned to another party:
    Judas betrayed his presence;
    the disciples deserted him;
    the Sanhedrin gave him up to Pilate,
    Pilate in turn to Herod,
    Herod back to Pilate;
    Pilate to the mob,
    who finally gave him over to a Roman execution,
    which somehow, improperly, they co-opted..."

    "...Even in his death, Jesus was still being handed back and forth, as if no one actually killed him, but he died from neglect and lack of his own living-space."

    http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/reflections_volume_5/milbank.htm

    This is a staggering notion.

    The point cannot be stressed enough. No-one among his accusers actually cared about Christ one way or the other. He was just a means of scoring a point, a squandered chip in the poker game of politics. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. Anyone, it wouldn't matter, anyone will do.

    Hard? Yes. Brutal. If his original accusers the Sanhedrin really wanted him, not just anyone but that blasphemous Nazarine, if they really wanted to make a point and an example, they would have exercised their judicial right of execution for blasphemy - by stoning outside the city gates, as they had
    done, and would do, others. As was allowed by Roman Law.


    But they didn't.
    In the end what killed him was that nobody cared enough not to.
    It was just the easiest thing to do.

    Make the problem go away.

    +++
    Thomas
     
  12. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    My view is that it's like drinking poison or being infected with a disease. The more poison you drink and the more the disease grows, the more progress you make towards death.

    We die not because we are punished and deserve it, but because the consequences of heaping on sin after sin is spiritual death which also results in physical death. In other words, every time we do something wrong, we are poisoning ourselves. This is what eventually kills us.

    Think about it. Sin is something spiritually unhealthy. It's like we're stuffing ourselves with something unhealthy and one day we're going to die from it. It's unholy because it's spiritually unhealthy.

    We all sin because Adam ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, not because he disobeyed God. It's because we are inherit the substance from the fruit: the ability to lie, to be selfish, arrogant, greedy, lustful, etc. We all know the consequences of these things on the world around us. It's spiritually unhealthy: we reap what we sow.

    Every time we sin, we are harvesting death, so sin is the blight that kills us all. If you sow death and reap death, you die.

    God really doesn't have to do anything. If we sin, we will die anyway. All he has to do is choose who should live on Judgment Day. Those who are going to die will die anyway because they're infected with the poison from the Forbidden Tree. Those who are going to live will survive because God gives them the antedote that cures them of the disease that came from the Forbidden Tree.

    The bodies and souls of those who are going to live will be raised incorruptible. Anything incorruptible is imperishable and will last forever because it is used for constructive rather than destructive purposes.

    God isn't saving us from His own punishment of us, but our own self-destruction. He's saving us from ourselves.
     
  13. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    (Rev 1:17-18) When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

    18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

    He is the one true living god with power over death and through him there is life and which fulfills the words of the prophet:

    - (Isa 44:6) "This is what the LORD says- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
     
  14. Curios Mike

    Curios Mike Well-Known Member

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    I"m gonna go to a different take on this that I havnt seen anyone mention. Christ Died to proove it can be done! Let me explain:

    From the fall in the Garden till now the problem with man has not been sin(well anyone sin in paticular except), but self! I.E. Selfishness! What can I do for me... What do I get out of it... How can I be the most blessed...OR the most powerful....Or the richest... When Christ came to die on the Cross he had to do it selflessly. The Bible states He was tempted, and suffered the same things we do but without anu gil in his mouth. And when they Killed him He was as a lamb dumb before its shearurs.

    Yes I believe he was a sacrifice for our sins, but I also believe that his sacrifice had 2 sacrificial sermans to it.... It started when he washed the feet of the apostles. He wanted us to do away from self, and be selfless.... to place others before ourselves, to sacrifice ourselves for others(as he did).... Paticularly those in need. (What was it he told the pharisees A physician doesnt come to see the well, but the sick.) I can go on but I'm not sure if my point is making anysense... LOL I'll wait and see how you guys respond.... and maybe I can elaborate.:) Or maybe some of you folx beter with words knows what I"m saying and can make this a little plainer?
     
  15. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Before Jesus died, He asked the Father to forgive us, for we "did not know what we were doing". We fell from grace in the beginning, and we are mostly blind (of the mind and spirit), now, but will see the whole of it later. We don't know what we are doing. Jesus was not only pleading with the Father, He was reminding Him that we don't know the whole of it.

    Like children on a playground that tease eachother or bully eachother then, we look back now, and wish we could take back what we did...because now we know what we did was so wrong.

    When I was a young father, I had an 18 month old son, who showed promise of great talents and personality, and drive. In a Georgian spring fed lake (very cold), I was swimming, and my young son saw me so, he wanted to come to me (18 months old). He was so excited that he ran and jumped right into the 45 degree waters, intent on being with me, before his mother could stop him. Imagine the shock to body and mind when he hit the water...

    Of course I pushed him back to the edge, while he tried to catch his breath. But then, I cajoled and called for him to jump back in to me...and he hesitated.

    He wanted to, but he knew fear of the cold water. My calling him became insistent much to my wife's chagrin, and he began to comply, when my own father called to me "What are you doing?" I replied that I was doing what he taught me to do, teach my son to be tough, and have no fear, excel at everything...

    My father then said quitely, that he was wrong in the way he raised me...and in that moment, the spring water became very, very cold to me.

    I got out of the lake, but my son was determined to get back into it, until I hugged him and said it was too cold for both of us (he hugged me back hard, because he did not want to jump back into that cold water, not at all)...

    My point is that Dad saw the error of his ways when raising me, and pointed them out as I was making the same mistakes with my children.

    He did not know what he had done, until he saw me repeating his mistake with my own son. And I was young enough to still be influenced by my Dad to take heart, and not repeat the same mistake with my boy (but it came awfully close).

    In the time of Christ, people were set in their ways, until after His death...then the fathers began to see the error of their ways, and now they are telling us (the children of them, in their writings), that we do not have to follow such ways. We do not have to make the same mistakes.

    Matthew was a calloused man as he collected the taxes of the king, and Luke? He only treated the rich and famous for their ailments. Mark...who knows, but Thomas trusted no one. Peter was a hard working fisherman (probably with a sailor's mouth and attitude). Mary Magdeline? You figure it out. Paul was a bigot and self righteous.

    Jesus had to die, in order to wake us up! Death is real! And it is final in this plane of existence, and we can't go back to fix what we messed up. Then He lived again to show us there is a new life awaiting (but we still can't go back to fix what we messed up, once we are gone). As we learn however, we can go and fix what we did wrong, WHILE we still live here, or at least make amends.

    It's a two fold thing. Make amends here and now, and smooth the way for the hereafter.

    Deeds do not get us to heaven...but covering debts do not hurt us in getting to heaven (I think). And learning lessons before we die, so we can pass them on to our lineage is not a bad thing either. ;)

    v/r

    Q
     
  16. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Q. I can identify with that story and probably many other fathers can too. You've given me something to think about.

    Peace, VC.
     
  17. Curios Mike

    Curios Mike Well-Known Member

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    Thats not exactly what I meant Quahom1.... But very well put. I can also relate.
     
  18. elme

    elme lightheart

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    "first off, nowhere in the bible is "jehova god" in the bible. i dont know who made that up or taught you that, but its not there.
    second, yes there is a distinction what jesus knows and what his father knows, as in the exact time of jesus' second coming.
    third, jesus has all the authority, holiness, and power that god desires, and sits at his right hand of god. to outright say jesus is not god himself maybe an incorrect statement from a human mind point of view regarding something spirtually supernatural such as jesus being born of the holy spirit and being the word and son of god from the beginning, as he did say he was I Am as well. i believe jesus christ and the holy spirit are god in different forms to do different things. i would say god the father in his original form is so holy he must manifest himself in jesus and the holy spirit to communicate with us. kind of like a big pitcher of water and pouring two glasses of water, yet they are all the same water. to reject jesus is rejecting god as well, and if you know jesus, you know god too."






    but in the end .... don't we all agree that there is One God?

    the intricacies, perceptions or interpretations do not lead us away from the truth.




    There Is Only One God
     
  19. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    ............That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. psalm 83;18 ........... seems that the word of God told me that............ seek and you will find
     
  20. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    if that were true, then jesus died for no reason, and the holy spirit is not needed.

    btw, that is an old conversation mee, i said the words "jehova god" are not found together. the point was by putting those those words together, jw's change the meaning of the word from a trinity god, to a single god by himself. but i dont care to continue discussing that if its ok with u.
     

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