Is God omniscient or limited?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by BlackHeart, Sep 18, 2003.

  1. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    OK Inivitation if Your God doesnt Know all Cant Do all or is Not in control of all
    Let me introduce you to mine because HE DOES :)

    Jesus is the way the truth and the light

    The alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end
     
  2. Blue

    Blue Member

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    "Let me introduce you to mine because HE DOES

    Jesus is the way the truth and the light

    The alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end"

    =========

    Nothing wrong with that, Basstian, that I can see.

    You make an assertion, which I presume you have validated to your personal satisfaction. That is what you believe. Fine.

    No one can argue against that. I certainly wouldn't.

    I can only ask out of interest how you personally validate the statements? I would be interested in that. What measures and evidence do you, have you, referred to?

    You see there are a lot of people who, with equal personal validity, assert that their Prophet or God is someone/something/some entity, which is different. They may be an Hindu, or a Jain, or a Pagan, or Islamic.
    I hope you do not think your assertions are worth more than theirs? The fact is they will have the same basis for their validity.
    No single 'God' can be claimed as superior to another can it, in all honesty and reason? I do not think so, anyway.

    They all deserve respect as possible spiritual pathways to 'God', and as personal expressions of Faith.
     
  3. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Blue :)

    I asked you on another post somewhere whether you were married.. because I wanted to give you an example so Im going to go ahead and post this under the assumption that you are married and a male.

    You're married and have been for years do you not have faith that your wife is completely monogomous?

    What if someone told you that they do not believe that your wife was faithful to you?

    Do you begin to doubt your wife because someone told you their belief?

    Or do you continue to trust in your wife because of your faith in her fidelity?

    Now to put it in religious context..

    You're a Christian and have been for years and you believe that Christ is the author of your salvation.

    Someone tells you that your very belief system is wrong.

    Do you allow your faith to be shaken... that maybe you are wrong?

    Or do you continue to trust in God?

    That is faith.
     
  4. DrewJMore

    DrewJMore Logical Demonstrator

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    *edgy sarcasm*

    If you are informed that your wife has been unfaithful, since this possibility has never occurred to you, it would clearly be best to ignore the information and go on about your life as if nothing had changed.

    *end edgy sarcasm*

    Faith without doubt is delusion. You must acknowledge your doubts, or your faith is meaningless. If you are without doubt, why would you need faith? To put a finer point on it: faith implies doubt, either of which you are free to repress at your peril.


    "Trust in Allah,
    but tie your camel tightly,"
    the saying goes.
     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Yes! On that we both agree completely! One must have doubt, in order for faith to be affective. That is the ultimate equation for Faith. Having doubt, but stepping foreward anyway in the hope of what is to be (or not), and the belief in what is not seen (or may not exist). Sailors call it a "pipe dream" sometimes.

    eh, hi...I'm a sailor :D

    v/r

    Q
     
  6. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Says who? I was brought up believing that God wanted me to have faith despite the doubts. When I have a doubt I pray about it and my doubt leaves. Just like if you have doubts about your wifes infidelity you might ask her and if she tells you no that she hasnt been unfaithful you believe her or you dont. You let that seed of corrupt thought build up and it can effectively wreck a marriage or you believe your wife and grow from it. I have never understood cynical people because Im not a cynical person.. Its a waste of time for me to always look at people expecting the worst from them. I would rather look at a person without judgement and accept them for who they are and hope they do the same to me because Im not perfect either. I also dont think anyone can define what anothers faith means to them because you are expecting that person to be just like you with your same thoughts feelings and experiences. We are all individuals and should be respected as such.
     
  7. chary

    chary New Member

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    :)
    If God is capable of doing something something it doesn't mean that He should do it. Nor he is obligated to prevent anything. Human responsibility and free will also part of the issue. God is not only love but also just which means a Rewarder, Who rewards everyone according to theier faith and actions.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2005
  8. Visitor

    Visitor New Member

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    Re: Omnipotent God?

    If we accept for a minute the idea that God is loving then couldn't it also follow that He (sorry bout' the gender specific language) is limited to an extent in what He can do? What I mean is if God is pure love then feasibly it wouldn't be possible for God to do anything that isn't loving.
    Just a thought on the idea of God's attributes before we even begin discussing why we witness and experience so much suffering.
     
  9. Blue

    Blue Member

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    :) Hi Faithful Servant,

    What a strange argument to put forward in defence of a spiritual Faith.

    I have been married for a very long time and have seven grandchildren.

    Believe it or not, it doesn't really bother me if my wife has been 'faithful' all her life.
    We are still together and we appear to love each other. That is what matters. We have fun and laughter and delight in our children. If she has ever had a fling... so what! She knows I have!

    If she has had a fling or two, what does that mean? She appears to be generally happy and always has. Isn't it how SHE feels that matters?

    It is the same with a religious faith.

    It's how you feel which matters. The Faith itself could be any Faith, Shinto, Judaism, Islam, Christian, Pagan. If you wed yourself to it, that is something you personally and affectively validate. Your love is no less real because it is placed in an affective and spiritual context.

    If I was a Christian say, and someone challenged my faith, I would laugh at their audacity. They can no more PROVE me wrong than I can PROVE they they are wrong if they happen to be a Pagan or an Ahteist. My faith, anyone's faith, is validated in the heart and soul(?). It cannot be 'hurt' or 'changed' by reason or rationality or even objective argumentation. It would only be possible to change that Faith if it was a personal affective decision by that individual from their own heart and soul(?).

    ALL I would ask is for honesty, and request every believer of any Faith, to go on questioning their Faith to their dying day, for themselves.

    No... I would never doubt my wife whatever was said. I would have no reason to. If she wasn't faithful, I would expect her to tell me or not to tell me. I have never gone around with suspicion in my mind! That's called 'trust'. lol
    ;)
    How is it possible for you to use a concrete and material comparison for questions of faith? You just cannot compare a religious faith in an unproven 'God' entity with the beautiful reality of a woman!
    Can you?:confused:
     
  10. Blue

    Blue Member

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    Hi Faithful Servant,

    :)
    What a strange argument to put forward in defence of a spiritual Faith.

    I have been married for a very long time and have seven grandchildren.

    Believe it or not, it doesn't really bother me if my wife has been 'faithful' all her life.
    We are still together and we appear to love each other. That is what matters. We have fun and laughter and delight in our children. If she has ever had a fling... so what! She knows I have!

    If she has had a fling or two, what does that mean? She appears to be generally happy and always has. Isn't it how SHE feels that matters?

    It is the same with a religious faith.

    It's how you feel which matters. The Faith itself could be any Faith, Shinto, Judaism, Islam, Christian, Pagan. If you wed yourself to it, that is something you personally and affectively validate. Your love is no less real because it is placed in an affective and spiritual context.

    If I was a Christian say, and someone challenged my faith, I would laugh at their audacity. They can no more PROVE me wrong than I can PROVE they they are wrong if they happen to be a Pagan or an Ahteist. My faith, anyone's faith, is validated in the heart and soul(?). It cannot be 'hurt' or 'changed' by reason or rationality or even objective argumentation. It would only be possible to change that Faith if it was a personal affective decision by that individual from their own heart and soul(?).

    ALL I would ask is for honesty, and request every believer of any Faith, to go on questioning their Faith to their dying day, for themselves.

    No... I would never doubt my wife whatever was said. I would have no reason to. If she wasn't faithful, I would expect her to tell me or not to tell me. I have never gone around with suspicion in my mind! That's called 'trust'. lol
    ;)
    How is it possible for you to use a concrete and material comparison for questions of faith? You just cannot compare a religious faith in an unproven 'God' entity with the beautiful reality of a woman!
    Can you?:confused:
     
  11. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Hi Blue :)


    What a strange argument to put forward in defence of a spiritual Faith.

    -I didnt think it was strange at all. I was trying to put it into a context you could understand since many of your posts claim that you dont believe in faith.



    I have been married for a very long time and have seven grandchildren.

    -Congratulations.. thats quite and accomplishment in this day and age. :)


    Believe it or not, it doesn't really bother me if my wife has been 'faithful' all her life.
    We are still together and we appear to love each other. That is what matters. We have fun and laughter and delight in our children. If she has ever had a fling... so what! She knows I have!

    -Now Im even more impressed! Most people wouldnt make it over that kind of betrayal. I bet she loves you very much to overlook something like that. You are blessed.


    If she has had a fling or two, what does that mean? She appears to be generally happy and always has. Isn't it how SHE feels that matters?

    -Well my understanding of true love is that what makes you happy would make her happy and likewise.. but I never would have though breaking marriage vows would have been part of it. LOL


    It is the same with a religious faith.
    It's how you feel which matters. The Faith itself could be any Faith, Shinto, Judaism, Islam, Christian, Pagan. If you wed yourself to it, that is something you personally and affectively validate. Your love is no less real because it is placed in an affective and spiritual context.

    If I was a Christian say, and someone challenged my faith, I would laugh at their audacity. They can no more PROVE me wrong than I can PROVE they they are wrong if they happen to be a Pagan or an Ahteist. My faith, anyone's faith, is validated in the heart and soul(?). It cannot be 'hurt' or 'changed' by reason or rationality or even objective argumentation. It would only be possible to change that Faith if it was a personal affective decision by that individual from their own heart and soul(?).

    ALL I would ask is for honesty, and request every believer of any Faith, to go on questioning their Faith to their dying day, for themselves.

    -I now understand that you are in effect challenging peoples faith.. why? I dont know.. maybe because you dont have any and you secretly want it? :)



    No... I would never doubt my wife whatever was said. I would have no reason to. If she wasn't faithful, I would expect her to tell me or not to tell me. I have never gone around with suspicion in my mind! That's called 'trust'. lol

    -It seems to me that you might not know what the word trust or faith means let me show you..

    Faith according to Websters
    Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust
    - allegiance to duty or a person b (1) fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
    - (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
    -complete trust
    -something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

    Trust according to Websters
    Etymology: Middle English, probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse traust trust; akin to Old English trEowe faithful
    - assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something one in which confidence is placed
    -a charge or duty imposed in faith or confidence or as a condition of some relationship

    How is it possible for you to use a concrete and material comparison for questions of faith? You just cannot compare a religious faith in an unproven 'God' entity with the beautiful reality of a woman!
    Can you?:confused:

    -Thats my whole point. I dont need to prove God in order to believe that he is there. Just as I wouldnt need to prove a spouses fidelity in order to believe that were faithful.

    -The Christian church is biblically referred to as the Bride of Christ and Christ is the bridegroom because we remain faithful to him and he eternally remains faithful to us. We trust in him.


    Faithful Servant
     
  12. Blue

    Blue Member

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    Thankyou for the comments, FaithfulServant, but I do think you make a fundamental error and base everything else around it.

    You cannot have read my nearly 200 postings here very carefully.

    FAITH is to be treasured for what it is, an affective response based in the affecftive nature and nurture of an individual.

    FAITH concerns, as your definitions illustrate perfectly well, that we are dealing here with self-validated affective concepts that individuals affirm; or even proselytise.

    If FAITH had proofs in the objective, material and cognitive domain beyond self, there in fact would be no necessity for the term FAITH, for it would be amenable to external verification/validation beyond yourself.

    This means no one can disprove a personally validated FAITH.
    If anyone attempts to do so, they are doomed to failure... there is no necessity for anyone to disprove a personally validated FAITH. Everyone in my opinion has a perfect right to believe whatever they believe.

    I do NOT challenge people's FAITHS. - how could I, having such a FAITH myself!
    All I ask is that they do not accept their own validations blindly and underdstand the personal affective nature of FAITH!

    I challenge 'blind' FAITH that is proselytised as universal truth, and always will do so, just as Professor Flew has for a lifetime, especially with regard to organised 'Churches' and monotheistic religions that proselytise 'universal truth' concepts beyond self-affirmation.

    I absolutely have no objection to someone believing their FAITH represents absolute truth. That is upto them.
    All I ask is that THEY challenge their own personal validations, in reason.

    You seem to suggest, in addition, that there is something strange or special about my wife and I.
    The fact is that after many years I observe in my friends and colleagues exactly the same kind of behaviours.
    Love and trust are pre-eminent in relationships and they are dependent themselves upon reason and honesty and should never be allowed to dominate affectively in the face of rationality and objectivity. We can indeed all feel jealous, and nothing is ever achieved by such an affective response given free reign. One needs to sit down and talk it all through... in reason... reasonably! lol

    Anyone singularly unable, as demonstrated by behaviours, to distinguish between Love and Lust, is doomed to be jealous and less than humane towards their partners who deserve every respect for putting up with us, warts and all, and failings!
    This all begins with honesty about oneself and having a sound(honest) self-image.
    Those who expect perfection should certainly never get married.
    True partnerships are not dependent upon vows or even legal marriage within any social or religious context, they are dependent upon understanding of the term 'partnership' of a deep and intimate longterm kind... friendship and love and all that truly means between one human being and another.
    :)
     
  13. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    We are definitely going to have to agree to disagree on your idea of lust and love.. sure I believe that someone could be unfaithful and that deed could be forgiven.. but forgotten... probably never.. and the pain that the wronged spouse felt.. would that be worth the few minutes of gratification? I have probably grown up in more traditional environment so I cannot understand it but that doesnt mean that I dont realize that there are people out there that can live like that and its no big deal.


    The issue of what you call blind faith is not something that we could ever relate with each other on. Its not blind.. and its not something one can explain to someone else who has never felt it. I attempted to give you a taste of it but it backfired because your relationship with your wife negates the comparison that I was using. lol
    Oh well I tried though. :)
     
  14. Blue

    Blue Member

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    Its not blind.. and its not something one can explain to someone else who has never felt it
    =====================
    This is just special pleading, FaithfulServant, in all honesty, my friend.

    It is the usual argument that circumvents the questioning and answering process and which endeavours to bring everything to a full stop.

    YOU could explain it, if you questioned it.
    I have a dear friend of many years, who is a Catholic Nun working with AIDS victims in Africa.
    We have had long discussions concerning this very point. She questions her faith constantly, especially as a result of being in the setting she has worked for many years .... and she DOES have an explanation of her responses.
    So could you.
    The very fact that you use the 'get-out' of 'if only you could experience what I experience, you would understand' demonstrates to me the 'blind' nature of your faith.

    You may wonder why I should be so interested in all this?

    It is simply that I have an incurable curiousity about what makes human beings tick... that's all - and of course, you do not have to answer my queries.
     
  15. khut

    khut New Member

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    if god is everything, if god is me, you, the planet, the animals, space and time then god does see everything and hear everything.

    if god is energy, and matter is energy and god is all then god is what we all come from and what we all return to. (energy is never created or lost).

    then our soul is the energy in us that returns to god when we die.
    so heaven and reincarnation are both true and jesus was the son of god, and so are you.

    (help me ive turned into a hippie)
     
  16. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Good Day Blue and FaithfulServant,

    Perhaps the problem lock here is in the word Faith. To have Faith is one thing. To be Faithful is another. One is an expectation that certain conditions will be met, wherein the other is a commitment to carry out a certain set of conditions.

    If the two were treated as separate entities, you two might could move Forward with this discussion.

    ;)

    v/r

    Q
     
  17. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Thanks for the insight Q, my friend. :)
     
  18. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    He, he, he. Don't thank me there, Faithful...I got the idea from you.

    ...If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. -Galatians 5:22-25...
    If we have faith Let us be faithful
    If we have expectations Let us commit

    v/r

    :D

    Q
     
  19. id-dun

    id-dun New Member

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    There is a dilemma regarding the question "Is God omniscient or limited?" which is not clear. Once this is clarified maybe the answer to this question will be a bit easier to think about and perhaps answer.

    In brief the dilemma is:
    Different mystics removed spatially and in time from different religious and cultural backgrounds seem to talk about the same phenomena..St.John of the Cross, Lao tze,..........their writings seems to indicate a mental process going on where visions are seen..... The question i would like to ask is do you think that this phenomena is in their heads or brought about by some god/gods/God
     
  20. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    I'm not sure about Lao tze, but my understanding of St. John of the Cross is that visions during prayer/meditation, or at any time, for that matter, may or may not be from God and one needs to rely upon discernment and solid theology to tell the difference. And, his advice is that it's better to just ignore visions since it's so difficult to discern the source.

    2c since I just happen to be reading about this at the time.

    lunamoth
     

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