For the Baha'i members

[arthra]

No, he said follow the code of conduct...pretty simple to understand.

You simply refuse to listen, and that is hard to understand...

Quahom...

Unfortunately this discussion seems to be going just a bit too far and I'd suggest we all need to let the dust settle... maybe letting this go awhile...and cooling down.

We've had a difficult time on this Board over the past month really with some of the changes and problems with a few antagonists who were unfortunately allowed to post here.

I haven't really had the pleasure of chatting with you before. But you're welcome here anytime!

Maybe we could start a new thread somewhere. What do you think?

- Art

 

[iBrian]

Re: For Brian...

Brian:

You know I think we've (me and my fellow Baha'is) somehow really ticked you off and maybe we should just button up. I don't know?!

I get the feeling we really have a communication problem here that needs to be resolved.

Maybe there's a way we can dialogue somewhere Brian... but you are in control as administrator here so I can't take that initiative...

- Art

I think the communication problem is simply that some members don't see why promoting the Baha'i faith is wrong - but it has been an implicit practice of CR since its inception that people are supposed to be present to discuss religion, not promote them.

There is a long string of members banned because their only reason for being at CR was to promote and proselytise - it is not a new policy - but as before, perhaps the failing is that I have not been so strict with the Baha'i members as with members of other faiths.

 

[iBrian]

I think I've figured it out.

Despite decades of interfaith email discussions I, and I'm sure others, have been on, CR has not only a unique set of rules but rules that are different than I expected. Not just matters of respect and civility, truthfulness and sincerity rather than lies, insults, vehment argumentation and non-discussion.

This is a place, like some places in the world, where one should not promote one's Faith at all. Period. Like Israel. Like the last line, substituting CR member for Israeli... "...should not teach the Faith to [member of CR].... When [CR members] ask about the Faith, their questions are answered, but this is done in a manner which provides factual information without stimulating further interest." People from China and other countries have similar restrictions.

Is this rather what you think Brian?

This is just plain rude.

If you think it's your given right to treat CR as you see fit, to promote your religion above others, then you really have no place here.

I have 4 pages of complaints on the feedback board that the Baha'i faith isn't treated on the same level as other religions - now that the rules applied to other religions here at CR are more properly applied to the Baha'i faith, I get pages complaints again. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

Let me underline the issue for you, smkolins - proselytising is not acceptable at CR. Using CR to promote any individual faith at CR is not acceptable. No faith is allowed this exemption. If you think the Baha'i faith should be exempt, then you will be treated as any other self-interested person who rejects the hospitality of this forum.

 

[iBrian]

Unfortunately this discussion seems to be going just a bit too far and I'd suggest we all need to let the dust settle... maybe letting this go awhile...and cooling down.

No, the issue needs addressing. Baha'i members need to ensure that their posting falls within the Code of Conduct, which applies to all members here. It is applied quite strictly to other faiths - there is no reason to allow some Baha'i members to be seen to flout this.

We've had a difficult time on this Board over the past month really with some of the changes and problems with a few antagonists who were unfortunately allowed to post here.

I've seen your attitude change and become more antagonistic, but I've not seen similar in many other Baha'i members.

Also, I don't see how you can complain of antagonism, when complaints raised with have clearly been dealt with. Do you have a complaint about a specific incident I'm not aware of?

 

[arthra]

This is just plain rude.

If you think it's your given right to treat CR as you see fit, to promote your religion above others, then you really have no place here.

I have 4 pages of complaints on the feedback board that the Baha'i faith isn't treated on the same level as other religions - now that the rules applied to other religions here at CR are more properly applied to the Baha'i faith, I get pages complaints again. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

Let me underline the issue for you, smkolins - proselytising is not acceptable at CR. Using CR to promote any individual faith at CR is not acceptable. No faith is allowed this exemption. If you think the Baha'i faith should be exempt, then you will be treated as any other self-interested person who rejects the hospitality of this forum.

Brian,

I sincerely doubt any of the Baha'is here reject the "hospitality of this forum" or are after any special treatment.

The two antagonistic posters who attacked our Faith on our Board I think you are already aware of.

- Art

 

[iBrian]

I'm aware of the ex-Bahai who signed with multiple aliases, who was removed. I'm aware of Imran, who initially attacked the Baha'i faith and was warned. Are these the two you inferred?

The first was not allowed to post once I was aware of the situation, and his multiple aliases were banned - the second was allowed to continue posting because he asked about the succession of the prophets issue, without directly attacking the Baha'i faith as he had been clearly been warned not to.

Hope that helps.

 

[smkolins]

This is just plain rude.

I don't understand. I was trying to understand you pov, and the rules of CR, and I think I've found an example of what you are trying to do. I just asked if this is the plan.

If you think it's your given right to treat CR as you see fit, to promote your religion above others, then you really have no place here.

But I don't see fit like you suggest. I have been trying to live by the rules all along. I've tried reading what I'm allowed to do both in spirit and in word. And every single time I do make some stride to make progress I'm recently being called rude or off base. Sometimes you say it's just an accident that my own post is the one that came along right at that moment and sometimes the gap in misunderstanding is so great that you feel I am intentionally trying to be rude.

I spoke of decades of experience in interfaith discussion areas. I am sincere. I do not have a record of getting in trouble. I try not to engage in discussions of pure argumentation where there is more heat than light. I do try to keep a civil tongue and an honesty about things. Someone asks me to please read this, I pretty much read it. I don't just ignore what they wrote or just respond without reading and delving for the truth. What I am saying above that you termed just rude is to say that such matters of courtesy and respect are not all there is to particpating in CR, or I suppose you could say the definitions of those words have characteristics I am not used to.

I've already mentioned concerns about calling our actions "missionary". You continue to use the term because I think you mean the spirit of the word rather than the letter. A missionary is supported by their church community - and I mean money - do go do what they are doing. Baha'is have almost never done such a thing and are not doing it on CR! You keep using the word "proselytising". To me proselytising is about attitudes and practices similar to what I meant about about matters of civility and respect, sincerity and honesty. I think of people who stand and announce the end of the world, who if you engage in discussion you just become another avenue for loud buoistrousness. As a dictionary says "convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another : the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many | [ intrans. ] proselytizing for converts | [as n. ] ( proselytizing) no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds. • advocate or promote (a belief or course of action) : Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas." I've already said that an interfaith discussion area is almost never a place where conversion takes place. I do not assume such will happen. It is not what I seek. I do note that the definition (btw, built into this computer's OS, not my own wording whatsoever) includes "evangelical" which is specifically a word I saw used as OK in the Christian discussion sticky topic. Unfortunately just as Baha'is do not have Missionaries, or Denominations, we cannot have evangelical approaches because these words almost only come from a Christian pov. However within the spirit of the word, well we might have room to talk on that. The last one - advocate or promote seems to be where you are coming from with the rules of this site. This is where I see the issue going beyond simply matters of respect and civility and honesty and sincerity. I offered a thread topic about prayer "as a way to learn about the Baha'i Faith." I see that as a neutral matter. You see that as a "promoting". I picked a very interfaith prayer and used personal commentary both of which seemed appropriate and or had been called for specifically. No deal. If information is promoting, guilty as charged. I think most readers have no idea what the Baha'i Faith is. We could go over various theological or scriptural issues but some antagonist of the Faith or other has often chimmed in making the discussion far far removed from what a casual onlooker might even consider following. So I tried a different tact. But the whole idea is indeed based on seeking to inform, which you seem to equate with seeking to promote.

The idea that the two could be so intertwined stumped me. What is the point of an interfaith discussion if we aren't going to talk about faiths and cross-faith topics? I started and abandoned several posts trying to come to grips with this. Then I recalled some obscure instances where even information was viewed, I thought, in the same light you offer it. I dug up a hard to find reference so that my words would not be in the way, but then felt a simple alteration seemed in order and I offered that as a statement of what you mean.

And instead I get called rude.

Now I'm trying to parse this all out and find the common ground again. Have I made any headway?

I have 4 pages of complaints on the feedback board that the Baha'i faith isn't treated on the same level as other religions - now that the rules applied to other religions here at CR are more properly applied to the Baha'i faith, I get pages complaints again. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

I would like to read it, or some summary of it. Just to get an idea of what's been going on behind the scenes and as an idea what on earth eveyone is talking about.

Let me underline the issue for you, smkolins - proselytising is not acceptable at CR. Using CR to promote any individual faith at CR is not acceptable. No faith is allowed this exemption. If you think the Baha'i faith should be exempt, then you will be treated as any other self-interested person who rejects the hospitality of this forum.

And is or is not information itself promoting? I know information can be presented in a way that can lead or it can be presented in a way that doesn't. I see CR attempting to draw the line right down the middle of that split. I don't know what evangelism means given this that it's ok or not. But as I don't see how Abrahamic can apply exclusively to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam... well it's just more oddities.

I have never asked or intended the Baha'i Faith be treated any different. I have maintained that certain structural aspects ignore how they effect the Baha'i Faith but that's probably still another discussion. At first I thought it was worse than that but now beleive the choices made were not consciously intended to marginalize and oppress the Baha'i Faith's presence on CR.

In fundamentalism, where this thread began, simply telling me what to do should be enough. I am no fundamentalist. Everytime I attempt to apply what you tell me I seem to get in trouble.

 

[iBrian]

One of the difficulties of communicating in the written word is that intentions and expressions of the writer can be easily misconstrued - if I have done so with anybody here then you only have my apologies for not being clearer. I'm also certainly not questioning anybody's integrity, or trying to stifle anybody's enthusiasm for their faith.

What stood out about your statements was the issue of restrictions, and comparing CR to China did not seem particularly complimentary.

However, you are quite right that one of the aims of CR is to not allow any faith to be promoted - it is a place for learning in general, not through reading scriptures or essays, but simply from conversing with people of many different faiths, perspectives, and experiences. This is where the real value of CR is, in my opinion, and all the more important why this aspect needs to be preserved.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I'm sorry, Brian, but I'm at a loss to know what point of view you expect Baha'is to express if not a Baha'i one! If Baha'is are to be condemned for discussing things from a Baha'i POV--in an interfaith discussion area, no less!--, then what on earth position ARE we supposed to take?!

B>People can explain what their faith says by using their own words....

I already explained (in post #2 above) the reason why we Baha'is prefer quoting to our own--very fallible!--words, so I refer you to that.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

An addendum:

Reading the various postings in this thread, I get the distinct impression that any time someone either asks a question about the Bah'ai Faith or posts misinformation about it, and the Baha'is then go ahead and explain what the Baha'i Faith actually says about the topic and what its teachings are, we get accused of "proselytizing."

I would like to point out that Baha'is tend to view proselytizing as the act of telling someone else what he or she should believe, and that doing this is something EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN to Baha'is!

But this is quite different from stating the facts of what the Baha'i Faith is or teaches, statements which the hearer is free to take or leave.

So I would simply like to point out that it's unfair to scream "proselytization" whenever some of us issue a factual statement about the Baha'i Faith.

Perhaps we ALL need to think more about the middle of the road, and give each other rather more benefit of the doubt....

Peace,

Bruce

 

[iBrian]

Hi Bruce -

I'm sorry, Brian, but I'm at a loss to know what point of view you expect Baha'is to express if not a Baha'i one! If Baha'is are to be condemned for discussing things from a Baha'i POV--in an interfaith discussion area, no less!--, then what on earth position ARE we supposed to take?!

Absolutely, and this position is not being asked for.

However, it is becoming too common for some Baha'i members to try and inject aspects of Baha'i faith into threads about other subjects - even about other religions - which is not really welcome at all. Hence the reason for this thread to try and return balance.

 

[iBrian]

Reading the various postings in this thread, I get the distinct impression that any time someone either asks a question about the Bah'ai Faith or posts misinformation about it, and the Baha'is then go ahead and explain what the Baha'i Faith actually says about the topic and what its teachings are, we get accused of "proselytizing."

There's nothing wrong with Baha'is answering issues relating to the Baha'i faith.

There's a Baha'i board here where I've tried to ensure that topics focussed on the Baha'i faith can be safely addressed by Baha'i members, with authority over outside viewpoints in favour of the Baha'i faith where it may clash with them.

What I'm trying to stop is the Baha'i faith becoming a focus for discussion in *any* general discussion here - I'm keen to prevent misinformation and attacks on any faith, but I need to stop Baha'i issues being seeded in them in the first place.

I would like to point out that Baha'is tend to view proselytizing as the act of telling someone else what he or she should believe, and that doing this is something EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN to Baha'is!

Some Baha'i members see nothing wrong with teaching the Baha'i faith *at* other members - I've had to remove a couple of posts which were made to specifically attack other religions, and in other general topics, the Baha'i faith was introduced by Baha'i members in order to claim the supremacy of the Baha'i faith.

In such instances, although the Baha'i members may not see such statements as proselytising, CR does make that distinction.

Again, it's worth underlining that I know there are a number of Baha'i members at CR, and this thread doesn't apply to all - but I have been seeing a disturbing trend develop that is causing imbalance at CR, and so needs addressing.

 

[smkolins]

However, it is becoming too common for some Baha'i members to try and inject aspects of Baha'i faith into threads about other subjects - even about other religions - which is not really welcome at all. Hence the reason for this thread to try and return balance.

I'm not sure if this made it into one of the complaints you refered to but when I read this an occasion leaps to mind. There was a thread about the question of Jesus' crucifixion and Moslems and Christians were at great pains to point down the other side with firm hold of their own scriptures.

I tried to step into the middle saying there was a perfectly valid position to take that required niether side to give up their scripture or it's meaning. The position I offered is infact from the Baha'i Faith though as I recall I'm not sure I even mentioned it, wanting to simply mention there was a peaceful resolution to the topic. I could of course have participated as the subject is clearly in our scripture too, perhaps, but I felt that coming explicitly from that pov would have simply caused more "rolling of eyes" rather than listening to the proffered answer.

Is this an example of interjecting when it's not wanted?

 

[smkolins]

What stood out about your statements was the issue of restrictions, and comparing CR to China did not seem particularly complimentary.

I would offer that the Baha'is obey such limitations regardless of how we feel about them, and don't particularly speak against them. Indeed, as all countries are equal, aught not the soverignty of China be respected? Indeed stating that practices of the Chinese government are unfair might make it rather harder for a Chinese national to participate in this discussion area as certainly the contents could be reviewed and some manner of judgement made by the Chinese government.

If we obey such positions can it not seem alittle easier to think we would seek to obey the rules of the road here? It just seemed so far out of our experience. Bruce has moderated interfaith discussions before. Though my experience is less than his in moderating, I too have moderated and been asked to on other occasions. Frankly, in all the years of being active on numerous interfaith discussion areas this is the first one that went past simple respect/civility/honesty tests of participation - or as you say: "This is where the real value of CR is, in my opinion, and all the more important why this aspect needs to be preserved."

I will maintain this in addition - I've been on non-moderated discussions and moderated ones. Moderated ones are always more civil in the long run. In only a few instances can I think of where a moderated discussion became an occasion to oppress Baha'is explicitly. In fact before the days of the internet I have some evidence one BBS networks was shut down when the interfaith discussion area by acclamation appointed a Baha'i as moderator.

 

[Quahom1]

Hmmm, crying "poor mouth", doe not become a Baha'i.

That is what my southern wife considers it, and she does not participate here at CR. But she read what was on the screen, and bless her heart she simply stated, "Hmmm, crying poor mouth", then walked away.

Since Baha'i is relatively new to the block, it would be wise not to attempt to take over...screaming injustice tends to fall on deaf ears (not really deaf, just turned to the wind).

Back off, I think is the message being presented.

v/r

Q

 

[sara[h]ng]

Quahom.

Is Brian not doing a good enough job for you?
Give this some deep, unbiased thought: what was your intent in writing the messages that you have posted in this thread? Perhaps you should look at yourself before critiquing others in their consistency to their faith?

'Let he, who is without sin, cast the first stone.'

- Sarah

 

[iBrian]

Okay, let's try and not move away from the general intention of this thread.

Overall, as before, I have nothing wrong with Baha'i members posting here. But my impression over the past couple of months is that the Baha'i presence had become primarily centered around using CR to actively promote the Baha'i faith, and recruit for new members. This is obviously not what CR can allow from any faith.

And with that, thread closed.