Need Help Finding Buddhist Teacher

DT Strain

Spiritual Naturalist
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I have done some searches and fortunately I live in a large city. There seem to be many Buddhist temples and organizations in my area. But they all are of various types and I'm confused as to which will suit me.

I am a Naturalist and have no supernatural beliefs, so it is the teachings of focus, merit, ethics, and karma (cause/effect) and other pragmatic elements of Buddhism I am wanting to learn more about.

From my little readings so far, it seems that some branches have more elements relating to afterlives, the Buddha as a spiritual being to be worshipped, the supernatural, and many rituals. If my impression of my readings are correct, it seems that Theravada Buddhism is more secular in nature than Mahayana? Or perhaps both are less secular than what I relate to.

In short, it seems there is a spectrum and I am looking for a school/temple which is more on the secular/pragmatic side of Buddhism. Would this indeed be Theravada I'm looking for, or something else?

Thanks much :)
 
Namaste DT Strain,


generally speaking, this is the sort of thing that other beings cannot answer for you. it is one of those things that, when you find the right path to be travelling on, you will know it.

i suppose, in some sense, we could point you in some directions.

all in all... it would probably be best if you visited those Dharma centers and check it out for yourself. :)

metta,

~v
 
generally speaking, this is the sort of thing that other beings cannot answer for you. it is one of those things that, when you find the right path to be travelling on, you will know it.
If I were in your shoes I would do what you would do in your shoes...

finding what resonates is always oh so interesting, and I agree best found on your own. You'll know it when you see it, and it may surprise you, not be what you would have suspected with preconcieved notions at all.

the funny thing about the supernatural is how natural it is....

namaste,
 
Hello DT Strain,

I originally started out looking for something very similar to what it sounds like you are looking for. I started looking around, going to classes, doing some research etc. It took me a long time to "give up" the supernatural per se... I almost immediately turned from anything involving diety worship, it had already taken me a long time to give that up, yet I found myself returning to my Mahayana classes.

I really struggled with the idea of deity worship for a long time. For the life of me I couldn't understand why so many intellegent people insisted on "worshiping" anything.

However, my advice would be to keep your options open. There is a seldom seen quality in that so called deity worship. In the Mahayana one doesn't blindly accept "supernatural" beings, but it is known that all is created in the mind and truly believing that you are receiving blessings can provide a very useful boost in your practice. Although some don't seem to need this.

I hope I'm not coming across as preachy. By all means, first and foremost, do what feels right for you, let that always be your guide. I just wish someone had explained this to me a lot earlier on, I think it might have saved me some precious time and helped me in my understanding earlier on. Above all I would recommend attending any Buddhist classes or events in your area and let your karma be your guide.

Good luck with your search. May you find all that you're looking for and more.

Namaste,

~rdwillia
 
Thanks much for the responses everyone. But sureley there are different schools of Buddhism and some include more ideas of worship, the heavenly realm, and ritual, while others less so?

If I knew a little about that it might help me better select which area of Buddhism to begin my explorations.

Perhaps my impression from the posts is incorrect, but there seems to be an unwillingness to discuss Buddhism in these terms. Is it considered in bad taste or uncomfortable to talk about these varying characteristics between schools? If so I apologize.
 
Go Mahayana. You can learn about karma etc from books, but in terms of the view, the Mahayana is supreme. If Tibetan rituals bother you that much, Zen has a very clean-cut approach and a healthily weighted interest in praxis.

Oh, and don't forget Internet forums!

Om Mani Padme Hum!
 
Just a precaution - There are some groups you might to stay away from, but I'm not sure about the forum's policy with listing these.

Wouldn't let that stand in your way though. You're very fortunate to have so many centres in your area. Down here there are no gurus and the centres are small, so take advantage of what's available.

Sarva mangalam :)
 
Namaste DT,


well.. it's not so much that they are incorrect or anything like that.

the hierarchial structure which we talk about is mainly for linguistic purposes.

generally speaking, an individual lay Buddhist will have incorporated aspects from many points of veiw (philosophically) and many points of practice (doctrinally) to come up with their own sort of practice either within or without a framework of existing practice.

another consideration to bear in mind is that Buddha Shakyamuni taught that individuals beings needs and capacities are different, as such, it is necessary for them to find a spiritual refuge which is condusive to their own spiritual development.

to this end, we are called to test the teachings for ourselves, before we adhere to them.

as for which, say, schools or whathave you...

as a being with a fairly strong academic bent, i tend to be drawn to the philosophical subtlety of the Mahayana, in particular the Madhyamika as expressed in Vajrayana Buddhism.

since i am also a being which finds value in ritual and symbolization, i am drawn to the Vajrayana as found in Tibet, in particular.

so.. i would say that, to help you find a place to start looking, you could consider what sort of approach you are most keenly interested in. Buddhism has a myriad of methods by which we can enter, should we find the right door :)

metta,

~v
 
Hmm, I am most surprised to see two of you recommend Mahayana to me. Mind you, this is coming from a very ignorant novice's limited knowledge, but I had the impression from my cursory readings that Mahayana tended to be more religious, ritualistic, and mystical, while Theravada tended to be less so, perhaps more praxis oriented. Is my impression completely wrong?

The reason I had this impression was that I read that Theravada see only the Pali Canon as official and the Mahayana accept the Pali Canon plus additional writings. But my readings are scant and my understanding very shallow at this point. Any comments are most welcome :)
 
Hi DT,

DT Strain said:
Hmm, I am most surprised to see two of you recommend Mahayana to me. Mind you, this is coming from a very ignorant novice's limited knowledge, but I had the impression from my cursory readings that Mahayana tended to be more religious, ritualistic, and mystical, while Theravada tended to be less so, perhaps more praxis oriented. Is my impression completely wrong?

No, you are absolutely correct. I was just trying to point out that it might not be a bad idea to investigate why many find the Mahayana to be of more benefit. If you are quite certain that you don't find the "religious, ritualistic, and mystical" to work for you, then yes, you would probably agree more with the teachings of the Hinyana. My point was just that I was originally more drawn to the Hinyana because I didn't fully understand why the "religious, ritualistic, and mystical" were 'necessary'.

The reason I had this impression was that I read that Theravada see only the Pali Canon as official and the Mahayana accept the Pali Canon plus additional writings. But my readings are scant and my understanding very shallow at this point. Any comments are most welcome :)

In the Mahayana, I think that this is just a matter of getting a larger perspective from others who seem to be doing/have done a pretty good job of following the path. My personal view is that yes, the Pali Canon is quintessential but that it helps to get views from masters in different times throughout the history of the world. Although the Pali Canon is of utmost importance in ensuring one is sticking to the teachings of Buddha, it generally helps to have different translations and interpretations.

That's my two cents worth. I'm on vacation/holiday for the next week or two so I might not have a chance to get on here, so a merry Buddhamas to you all and blissfull new year!:D

~rdwillia
 
Hmm, I am most surprised to see two of you recommend Mahayana to me. Mind you, this is coming from a very ignorant novice's limited knowledge, but I had the impression from my cursory readings that Mahayana tended to be more religious, ritualistic, and mystical, while Theravada tended to be less so, perhaps more praxis oriented. Is my impression completely wrong?

It is not the details of each, but the view which is my concern. I came to Buddhism through the writings of the great Taoist masters - Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu. The Taoist view is as expansive as the Mahayana Buddhist, but they lack a path to follow, a method. Taoist writings come across as devoid of ritual and anything "mystical", yet they have the most expansive view. On the other hand the Theravadin methods will take you so far, but they don't have the view to carry you through. You'll get stuck following the flow of karma rather than mastering it.

"These are the writing of Buddha". The Buddha's teaching were only written down decades if not centuries after his death, so how can this claim be made with certainty? "This is how karma works". What room is there for enlightenment if karma works flawlessly? "This is what nirvana is". Presenting the ultimate conceptually is like trying to shave a tortoise, or eat a mile. :) Yes/no...up/down...left/right...cause/effect. Where does this lead? Only deeper into the quagmire of judging, dividing, and dualist vision, which has no place in the realm of the supramundane. At first, it is necessary, but the Hinayana approach makes no provision for spiritual growth.

Their perspective is always taken from that of a suffering sentient being. As long as they identify with a suffering individual, it doesn't matter what actions they take, it will always be those of a sentient being.

The Buddha's meaning is not discarded in the Mahayana, it is skillfully applied. Rituals are only an aid, a way of leading us to that higher truth which, once grasped, is discarded since it is no longer needed.

The perspective is taken more from that of an enlightened being. The view is that we are all innately enlightened. It is not something different from us or something we have to "achieve" as such. We just don't see that enlightened nature, because of our ignorance.

There is nothing "wrong" with the Theravadin approach, in the same way that learning algebra doesn't nullify basic addition and subtraction. To climb to the peak of enlightenment, you need to work through the forest of lesser views first.

Lao Tzu says:
Pacifying the agitated material soul and holding to oneness:
Are you able to avoid separation?
Focusing your energy on the release of tension:
Can you be like an infant?
In purifying your insight:
Can you un-obstruct it?
Loving the people and ruling the state:
Can you avoid over-manipulation?
In opening and closing the gate of Heaven:
Can you be the female?
In illuminating the whole universe:
Can you be free of rationality?

Can you keep an open mind and avoid discriminating Mahayana rituals you don't understand, or avoid entangling yourself in Hinayana techniques whose context you have no understanding of?

It's all a learning curve, so it doesn't actually matter where you go. I might suggest going to an abattoir to learn about suffering and death - probably be just as insightful.

The reason I had this impression was that I read that Theravada see only the Pali Canon as official and the Mahayana accept the Pali Canon plus additional writings. But my readings are scant and my understanding very shallow at this point.
Pali canon includes Adbhidharma which is disputed as not being the words of the Buddha by Mahayanists. For Theravadins, the importance of the original Buddha's (Shakyamuni's) words is emphasised. But the Mahayana has been a living tradition with many Buddhas for 2500 years who had their own thing to say, often in a way more accessible to changing views. Shakyamuni, as a single person could not possibly provide every single efficacious teaching for all sentient beings of every age. In fact your best bet is to find a living Buddha. He/she can help you infinitely more than your own perceptions of a scripture, retranslated from Pali, from Apabramsa, from the memory of a monk who no doubt had his own ideas on the Buddha, who he never met,'s 45 years worth of contextually dependent teachings. (tee hee :) )

Your own context is as important as the teaching you're receiving. So I say Mahayana, because it is a living tradition, not one that sailed around the world as a set of papers. A living tradition will have people who have received the essence-tial teaching right down from Shaks himself. They can advise you skillfully.

Take care
 
Ah, thanks very much Rdwillia and Samabudhi! Your posts have helped my understanding greatly. I think I understand what you are saying.

Let me explain where I'm coming from, so that you know why I was leaning toward Theravada...

I see that the Theravada held all of the Pali canon to be the "end-all, be-all", whereas Mahayana seems to have a healthy skepticism regarding issues of interpretation, translation, distortion, and additions that happen over time. As such, it makes as much sense to look at the works of knowledgeable folks after the Pali's writing as it does those who lead up to the Pali's writing (correct me if I'm wrong here).

This is akin to the biblical literalists in my own Christian background, who refuse to consider the historical complexities that went into the crafting of their bible, and imagine that the whole thing is complete and inerrant. I've always thought that the biggest problem with the Bible is that someone slapped a back cover on it and declared it finished.

Because of this, I grew up hearing a lot about Jesus and Christianity, and it turns our later in life that I discover that much of what I learned is not what Jesus actually taught, or at least that it is only one interpretation of what Jesus taught. In other words, I have had to go through a massive reconstruction in my thinking as I piece together clue after clue to try and separate out what was Jesus and what was added later by biblical authors who were "expanding on him".

This is not to say that those folks didn't have anything to say that was worth reading. But, if I am to be truly informed, I want to be clear on who said what and when so I can decide for myself which things seem reasonable and which do not.

That is why, going into Buddhism, my hope is to avoid a similar confusion. I figured that, by finding the most "bare-bones" school of Buddhism, I could then build my knowledge up, expending outward to other schools in a roughly chronological order in which they developed historically. I fully understand that, just as with the stories of Jesus, even the earliest texts were written down long after the teacher had passed, but at least that's something I can consider as I learn.

All in all, my goal is not to become a "Buddhist" in the traditional sense. My actual views are closer to Humanism. But where it comes to religion, I consider myself, first and foremost, a Philosopher. As such, I seek to learn about many traditions, religions, and philosophies and use what Truth, Beauty, Love, and Goodness I can find in them to live "the good life".

To me, enlightenment is not a plateau - not a stage one reaches or a goal one achieves. There is no divide between the unenlightened and the enlightened. Rather, it is a spectrum, a gradient on which we all seek to move higher. Furthermore, I don't look at enlightenment as something that transforms us into some otherworldly type of being or existence. Rather, enlightenment is understanding, perception, and realization that allows us to live more peacefully and contentedly in this life.

Enough of my ramblings. Thanks again for your kind help :)

 
I figured that, by finding the most "bare-bones" school of Buddhism, I could then build my knowledge up, expending outward to other schools in a roughly chronological order in which they developed historically.
Aha! An excellent plan. In the Tibetan traditions, monks purposely train in the lower views of earlier Buddhist and non-Buddhist philosophical and spiritual systems and work their way up.

All in all, my goal is not to become a "Buddhist" in the traditional sense.
:D It never is.

Investigate unashamedly and tell us what you find. :)
 
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