Is Prophecy dead?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by iBrian, Oct 23, 2003.

  1. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

    Jul 15, 2003
    Likes Received:
    There's a general perception in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that prophecy is effectively dead - that all that required saying is said.

    However, is this an interpretation supported directly by scripture - or is this a general assertion from events and human developments?

    Does humanity no longer have a direct connection to God, excepting through the pages of books?

    A general discussion question.
  2. brucegdc

    brucegdc Moderator

    Jul 28, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Nice generalization, but...

    Christianity: There are still prophets - ask Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts and many more - remember the one who said he received a prophecy that unless the faithful kicked in a couple of million dollars, he'd be called to heaven? On a more mainline note, I believe that prophecy is accepted by the Catholic church - IIRC, there are prophecies by many of the saints (including some modern ones).

    Judaism - again, depends on the branch. I believe the Hassidic Rebbe is accepted as a prophet by that group. I don't know of any recent prophets in the Conservative branch (but that's a recent US invention anyways). Since Judaism is primarily a personal relationship with God coupled with a familial/cultural relationship with other Jews (with more or less emphasis on each part depending on the branch), prophets aren't needed. Legal arguments, sure. Prophecy - we haven't finished sorting out all the oral law yet anyways, why give us more tsurris?

    Islam, though, I think, regards prophecy as dead, as the Q'uran is the perfected scriptures, and Mohammed the final prophet.
  3. mikie8

    mikie8 Well-Known Member

    Oct 28, 2003
    Likes Received:
    jews are still waiting for the messiah who will be a prophet and isreal will be given back to them by god ,both of which have not happened yet according to many jews

    jesus was the messiah and the last prophet but only if you ask a christian

    mohammad was the messiah and the last prophet but only if you ask muslims
  4. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Sep 4, 2003
    Likes Received:
    for a concise explanation that saves me writing out something that someone has already said:

    gives the basics on prophets. the basic difference about prophecy is that it is a direct form of communication with the Divine. a "bat qol" (heavenly voice) is more indirect, as is a "maggid" (heavenly guide of the great mediaeval kabbalists) - but both are inferior to prophecy. Prophecy was lost as the concomitant to the loss of the yetzer ha-ra for idolatry. a more detailed discussion is here.

    the argument is in various places in the Talmud.

    with regard to 'prophecy' in other religions, opinion ranges from "all people had prophets sent to them", agreeing with the islamic PoV, to "modern/post-exilic prophets aren't proper prophets/are frauds" - which is certainly an argument i'd consider valid if faced with oral roberts or pat robertson!

    incidentally, when you say "hassidic rebbe", i presume you mean the late lubavitcher rebbe, z"l. there are many different hassidic sects. and although there are some who consider him to have been the messiah, it is not the majority position of the lubavitch, or anyone else. and the messiah is not the same as a prophet. nobody ever said he was a prophet.

    this is not correct either. conservative judaism in the US (and outside it) has been around for some time and, in any case, holds with orthodoxy that prophecy is no longer available.

    this is my understanding as well, although their position is that every nation was sent prophets. however, the arabic word "rasul" means a "messenger", which isn't the same as a "nabi", which is the arabic equivalent of the hebrew "navi".

    the messiah will not be a prophet. and the land of israel was never 'taken away from us' by G!D; it remained our national home, even if we weren't allowed to live there by the romans and their successors. and *no* jewish group (apart from the minority of lubavitcher hassidim mentioned above) believe the messiah has come. it's true that there are some sects (notably the satmar hassidim) who do not believe that jews should return to israel until the big M shows up.

    this is not the case. muhammad was never described as "masih"; this title was reserved for jesus, who is also a prophet (although i don't believe christians think jesus had to be a prophet because he was the Divine incarnate) however, the term 'masih' in the Qur'an does not serve the same purpose as it does in judaism and christianity, referring merely, i think, to his "anointed" status in that some people believed him to be the messiah.


  5. WHKeith

    WHKeith Well-Known Member

    Jun 16, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Prophecy is very much alive within certain branches of Christianity.

    I used to be a Charismatic Christian, a group that is not confined to any single religion but which includes members from all established Christian churches and even some Messianic Jews (Jews for Jesus; they consider themselves Jewish by faith, practice, and tradition, but believe that Jesus was Messiah, "Yeshua ha-Masshiach"). Charismatics point to I Corinthians 12: 4 - 11, which includes prophecy as one of the "Gifts of the Spirit" which believers receive upon being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

    To put things in a broader and historical context, a number of mainstream evengelical churches embrace a doctrine known as "Dispensationalism." This claims that God has dealt with humanity in different ways at different times throughout history--a "Dispensation of the Law," for instance, and a "Dispensation of Grace." They point out that the "charisms," the Gifts of the Spirit, which included miracles, healing, tongues, gifts of wisdom and knowledge, and prophecy were all special dispensations at the Day of Pentecost, supplied to the apostles so that they could go out and convert the heathen. Today, of course, the dispensationalist argument goes, we have the established church and we have missionary outreaches and we have the Word of God and we no longer need miracles or prophecy. So they're dead. A probable majority of Christian churches accepts this doctrine at least tacitly, even if they don't call it Dispensationalism.

    Numerous of the more mystical branches of Christianity, however, feel we need miracles and so forth today more than ever. Since the 1960's, the "Charismatic Renewal" has created branches within all mainstream denominations that accepts prophecy and the other gifts as modern-day fact.

    My Christian experience was an odd one. Beginning as a nominal Presbyterian, I became a born-again Christian at a Catholic Charismatic prayer group meeting. For about a year afterward I was active with the Catholic Charismatics even though I never converted. (As an aside, I met my wife at that same prayer meeting.) Later, we joined a Baptist church--but a very strange one. Baptists for the most part are die-hard dispensationalists, but this particular church had gone through the Charismatic Renewal and was quite happy with prophecy and the other gifts. Later still, after another move, we hung out with Charismatic Lutherans.

    I should add that only very, very, VERY rarely does "prophecy" have anything to do with foretelling the future. Propehecy is more properly seen as "forth-telling" rather than "fore-telling." Take a look at the OT prophets to see what I mean. Usually, they're busy telling kings and people and fig trees that they are wicked, lost in abomination, and if they don't shape up God is going to do some serious smiting. Charismatic prophecy follows the same general notion, though the emphasis usually is on love and forgiveness, not on smiting.

    Some non-Charismatic believers accept a somewhat watered-down version. For example--Pat Robertson is Charismatic and uses prophesying in his ministry; Billy Graham, on the other hand, is not Charismatic, but certainly accepts that God can bestow a "spirit of prophecy" on someone at times. And he himself is certainly a prophet in the Biblical sense--telling people they have to turn away from their sins or God's gonna get out His smiting stick.

    And a final cynical observation: for many centuries, and up until very recently, Catholics were discouraged from reading the Bible. The Church felt that it was too easy for ordinary people to read the scriptures and go off on some hair-brained and heretical tangent because they didn't understand what they were reading. Interpretation of the scriptures were best left in the hands of priests.

    Most mainline churches, I feel, have a similar reaction against Charismatics and prophecy. They like the fact that the movement gets people excited about God, but they're faced with ordinary people standing up and speaking what they claim are God's own words. How do you maintain control of something like that? How many schisms and cults and new religions have appeared throughout history because John Peasant suddenly decided God was speaking to HIM, personally?

    In fact, the modern Pentecostal churches--the Assemblies of God, the Church of God, and others--got started in 1900 when an outpouring of the Holy Spirit set a number of regular church-goers to speaking in tongues and prophesying; rather than starting a Charismatic Renewal with their church, though, they were less than amiably received, and ended up starting their own religion. All of these churches continue to encourage prophesying among their congregants, so long as those prophecies check with scripture and with another Gift called "Discernment of Spirits." The minister or other elders in the church can always tell someone giving a prophecy that he's out of line if they don't like the message.

    So prophesying and the other gifts are often viewed with great trepidation by mainstream church leaders, and are handled with some caution even by established Pentecostal churches.
  6. Thresher

    Thresher Member

    Nov 20, 2003
    Likes Received:
    It is written in Matt 11:13 That all the prophets and the law prophesied until John (The Baptist). What is meant by that is there can be nothing new. The apostles and John the revelator prophesied. But Revelation is nothing new, just a key to understanding the prophets of old. It says there will be many false prophets. Just as when Elijah was the only one for Yahweh against four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal (Look the meaning of that name up then read Jer:23:27) We are told we should test the spirits, the way you do is shown in Isayah 8:20 If they speak not according to the Law and the Testimony (Prophecy) there is no light in them. It says in Matt 12:39 that a wicked and adulterous generation looks for miraculous signs, and unfortunately II Cor 4:4 and Rev 12:9 are true, and we are very much as in the days of Noah. As it says in Isayah 33:6 That wisdom and knowledge will be the stability of your times and IITim 2:15 that we are to Study to show ourselves approved. Which very few people take the time to do.:(
  7. Dave the Web

    Dave the Web Well-Known Member

    Mar 20, 2003
    Likes Received:
    I would hope that prophecy is not dead. To believe so would be to argue that God no longer wishes to communciate with humanity. An argument for those who argue for literalism first perhaps? I cannot see God abandoning all communication with ourselves on the grounds that a Book can explain and comfort every challenge we face in our personal lives and relationships.
  8. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

    Dec 1, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Prophecy a vital part of religion:

    My response:

    I don't know that there is a "general perception" that prophecy is "effectively dead".

    To me most religions have a perspective of the future and many share an apocalyptic view of the future... but this will vary as to how literal people take the verses of scripture or if they view them as being allegorical in nature.

    I came across what to me was a very interesting "prophecy" in what is called the "Peak of Eloquence" or Nahjul Balagha which are the sayings of the Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib who was the cousin of Prophet Muhammad and His son-in-law.

    Here is the prophecy:

    "A time will come when nothing will remain of the Qur'an except its writing, and nothing of Islam except its name.

    The mosques in those days will be busy with regards to construction but desolate with regard to guidance.

    Those staying in them and those visiting them will be the worst of all the earth.

    From them mischief will spring up and toards them all wrong will turn.

    If anyone isolates himself from it (mischief) they will fling him back to it and if anyone steps back from it they will push him towards it.

    Says Allah, the Glorified, 'I swear by Myself that I shall send upon them an evil wherein the endurer would be bewildered and He would do so.'

    We seek Allah's pardon from stumbling through neglect."

    - p. 656 "Peak of Eloquence" Published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc. Sixth US edition 1996

    To me these words composed by Imam Ali composed over a thousand years ago could be applicable to the situation today.

    So here is a case in my view where many people would read these verses above and say yes this speaks to the situation we see today!

    Also an interesting remark made:

    "Does humanity no longer have a direct connection to God, excepting through the pages of books?"

    When people read Scripture they can read it with humble devotion and openess and new insights will flood into the mind and the words themselves can take on new meanings throughout ones life as it unfolds... So reading revealed scripture to me can be a living experience as it records the sacred and conveys meanings to the heart and the heart is timeless and without barriers:

    "...these planes, the nightingale of the heart hath other songs and secrets, which make the heart to stir and the soul to clamor, but this mystery of inner meaning may be whispered only from heart to heart, confided only from breast to breast.

    "Only heart to heart can speak the bliss of mystic knowers;
    No messenger can tell it and no missive bear it.
    I am silent from weakness on many a matter,
    For my words could not reckon them and my speech would fall short. [Arabian poem]"

    - Baha'u'llah "The Seven Valleys"
  9. brettz9

    brettz9 New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Likes Received:
    prophecy never ended

    Bahá'u'lláh, the Prophet-Founder of the Bahá'í Faith--a Faith which grew out of Islám like Christianity did out of Judaism, maintains that God's one Faith has always showered the bounteous rain of prophecy upon mankind and will always do so till the "end that hath no end".

    He argues most forcefully (and with Scriptural evidence) in His primary doctrinal work, the Kitáb-i-íqán, that it is impossible for God's hand to be "chained up" in the manner of prophecy (or in any manner).

    See Kitab-i-Iqan, par. 148 for a specific example.

    Much of this work addresses the interpretations which have restricted our perceptions as to the Unconstrained nature of God and have deprived humanity of the all-unifying nature of His successive Revelations.

    See Kitab-i-Iqan, par. 172 (among other passages) for an explanation on the term "Seal of the Prophets" applied to Muhammad, peace be upon Him, which some in Islám have used to contend that prophecy will cease. Similar passages exist in addressing Christian and Jewish contentions, if anyone is interested.
  10. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

    Dec 1, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Welcome to the Forum Brett!

    Welcome to the forum Brett!

    I enjoyed your selections.

    Baha'is do have a view or perspective on the future that I think is "prophecy" based....

    When Abdul-Baha, the eldest son of Baha'u'llah, journeyed to the United States in 1912 in November of that year in Cincinnati he is said to have foretold in the following words that America would be the instigator of the League of Nations:

    "America is a noble nation, a standard bearer of peace throughout the world, shedding her light to all regions. Other nations are not untrammelled [sic] and free of intrigues like the United States , and are unable to bring about Universal Peace. But America, thank God, is at peace with all the world, and is worthy of raising the flag of brotherhood and International Peace. when the summons to International Peace is raised by America, all the rest of the world will cry: `Yes, we accept.' The nations of every clime will join in adopting the teachings of Bahaullah, revealed over fifty years ago. In His Epistles He asked the Parliaments of the world to send their best and wisest men to an international world-parliament that should decide all questions between the peoples and establish peace. then we shall have the Parliament of Man of which the prophets have dreamed."
    And of course Baha'u'llah called for a parliament of nations many years (1870's) before to establish collective security and build a world government.

  11. Jericho

    Jericho New Member

    Dec 15, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Baha'i Prophecy fulfilled recently

    Actually the Baha'i Faith has a great deal of prophecy revealed since the mid 1800s, if fact there have been many of world import that have already been fulfilled (16 concerning world events, and 10 concerning Scientific discoveries are depicted at http://BahaiText.Info - click on "EndTime").
  12. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro Moderator

    Sep 15, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Zdrastvuitsye, hola, shalom, salaam, Dia dhuit, namastar ji, hej, konnichiwa, squeak, meow, :wave: to both brettz9 and Jerico.

    I, personally, highly doubt that we have true prophesy nowadays, but I won't tell somebody else that what they believe is true prophesy is (to quote a couple of brothers here in the US) boooooooooooguuuuuuuus. ;)

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
  13. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

    Dec 1, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Ihave had a persoanl interest in the following area the past few years or so....

    One of the several prophecies that is attributed to Baha'u'llah is a statement He made in the Nineteenth century:

    "Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute."

    - Baha'u'llah, "Gleanings"

    Scientific literature of the period was pretty unanimous that our planetary system was fairly unique as they predicated this on the view that a passing star was repsonsible for generating our planets in this Solar system.

    Today however, scientists have catalogued well over a hunded solar systems since the 1970's and the number of planets keeps growing


    The part of the remark "...and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute" is also interesting and relates to life on other worlds.... this is one aspect that is currently not in scientific providence except recently there was evidence discovered of water on Mars and when there's water there's usually a life form....

    - Art
  14. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

    Nov 1, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Of prophet and profit

    If anyone claiming to be a prophet makes profit and lives like a member of the moneyed classes, for me he's no prophet, but more a profiteer.

    If a man talks about God and how to live peaceably and lovably among men, and himself living frugally and in all simplicity: he's my prophet.

    Susma Rio Sep
  15. brettz9

    brettz9 New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Hello Phyllis,

    Why would you say you doubt that we have true prophecy, "nowadays"?

  16. benOddo

    benOddo Member

    Jan 28, 2004
    Likes Received:

    Then what a the Gifts for? Or the Comforter?

    Do we nullify what Jesus promised, with general perceptions?

    Do you truly believe, revelation to man is only through the Head of the churches on earth?

    Or is it given to man or men, in the end times, before the return of Christ our King.?

    Would you doubt the prophecy of Daniels Seventy-sevens, if it could apply in more than the general precieved way.? If it could show the 70 sevens in a symbolic week, and symbolic month, and a period of years, and even in a period of Sabbath years. Where in each case stated, the prophecy would apply, and scripture would attest to.

    That even the early church fathers after 85-90 A.D. knew of and followed to the point of death. They knew the appointed times of God! The church over time through what ever means, lost sight of the truth that the Eastern churches knew, followed, and taught. But, by the time of the Reformation, and the churches that grew out of it, by then had long lost sight of it. The dogma and decrees of the western church, in it's quest for power, over people and kings, obscured the truth even more.

    We could search Scriptures from beginning to end, and not see it, it is only through prayer, the gift of understanding from the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, that truth is revealed. It is made more firm, with understanding of world history, church history, knowing and reading, Greek, and Hebrew aids our understanding. But God's Word, with the help of His Holy Spirit, in prayer is sufficent for most believing Christians.

    Modern critics of the Bible, both Old and New Testament critics, try to late date everything, or call the books myth, and wish to disprove God's word with science, these agnostics and atheists by their own thoughts and words, heap coals apon their own heads.

    Your question, brought to mind the 95th Psalm, verse 7, for he is our God and we are the people of his pasture, the flock under his care.
    Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.........

    Our Lord Jesus, knows our hearts, if we remain in him, he will remain in us, and we will hear his voice. As we await his return, we know from his Word, everything must be fullfilled from the Law, the Psalms, and Prophets, even though it's been 2000 years, we pray we are the generation that sees his return. Where through the Prophets, we decern the appointed times of God. In verse 10, For forty years, and from Daniel, we know it been 1,966 years, (where 2000 is 40 x 50) and from scripture we know the forty years refered to here, are the 40 (38 yrs.) after the first Passover, elsewhere we know that at the start of Christ's ministry, he was in the wilderness for forty days, and now through Daniel's sevens, a period of forty Jubilee weeks, before the 70th week. The 69th week is in the year 2044, only 40 years away. Or 2000 less 1966 is 34! years.

    Peace, Praise God!

    ben Oddo
  17. 9Harmony

    9Harmony goin' with the flow...

    Feb 20, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Dear Brian,

    you may or may not be aware...

    In the 1800's the world was buzzing with expectation that the end times was at hand. dozens of theologians came to the conclusion that the promised Messiah would arrive in 1843-44. Thousands of people sold all of their belongings and waited on hilltops for Christ to descend on clouds with power and glory. When nothing visible happened, they revised the date several times. What they didn't realize was that history was repeating itself once again. Prophecies were being fulfilled , just not in the way they expected. They were expecting prophecies to be fulfilled literally, just as the Pharisees had done at the time of Christ's first coming.

    The Baha'i Faith makes the assertion that prophecies of all of the worlds great religions have been fulfilled with the coming of the Bab (the Gate) and Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God).

    “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end…” Daniel 12:4

    “…the things hidden in the Books of God have been revealed, and that whatsoever hath been recorded by Thy Messengers in the sacred Scriptures hath been fulfilled.” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 163

    “The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him…” Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, pg 183

    “Verily I say, in this most mighty Revelation, all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation. Thus counselleth you your Lord, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Praise be to God, the Lord of all worlds.” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 340

    “…To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart…” Psalms 95:7-8

    “Verily I say, this is the Day in which mankind can behold the Face, and hear the Voice, of the Promised One. The Call of God hath been raised, and the light of His countenance hath been lifted up upon men. It behoveth every man to blot out the trace of every idle word from the tablet of his heart, and to gaze, with an open and unbiased mind, on the signs of His Revelation, the proofs of His Mission, and the tokens of His glory.
    Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day…” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 10

    “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26

    “The Comforter Whose advent all the scriptures have promised is now come that He may reveal unto you all knowledge and wisdom. Seek Him over the entire surface of the earth, haply ye may find Him.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh pg. 104-5

    “These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs; but the time cometh, when I shall not more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.” John 16:25

    “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now…” John 16:12

    “…Say Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: Ye cannot bear it now.’…” Bahá’u’lláh, Lawh-í-Aqdás

    “Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths…” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 136

    This claim is so great it is either entirely true or entirely false. It is each individuals responsibility to investigate for him/herself the validity of such a claim.

    Approximately 6 million people from every nationality, religion, race have embraced this claim to be true and are working together to build God's Kingdom on Earth, in fulfillment of this prophecy...As the Lord's prayer states, "Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven". This community has been established over the last 160 years. (The official website of the Baha'i World)

    And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” Isaiah 2:2

    "The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” Isaiah 35:1-2

    Mt. Carmel was once barren and desert like, but since Baha'u'llah walked there it has been transformed into beautiful gardens. It is also the World Center of the Baha'i Faith. (The Baha'i Gardens have recently been acknowledged for their beauty.)

    Now more than ever before mankind has a direct connection to God, but it is up to us to fulfill our end of the bargain.

    "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:” Isaiah 55:6

    “…unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time…” Hebrews 9:28

    “…This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings pg. 136

    So in answer to your questions...God has never left us, nor will he. Every letter of every prophecy will be fulfilled in the fullness of time, but not necessarily according to our expectations.

    “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.” Isaiah 55:8

    “Behold how contrary are the ways of the Manifestations of God, as ordained by the King of creation, to the ways and desires of men!” Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab'i'Iqán pg. 57

    Baha'i's believe that the Books have been unsealed by Baha'u'llah. All of the questions that have plagued mankind have been answered.

    • IMHO This may explain why there is this feeling you speak of that prophecy is dead, if the prophecies of all previous dispensations have been fulfilled by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, the animating force behind it has been stilled in that regard, now the power of the Almighty is directed to establishing His Kingdom.
    I hope I've given you some food for thought.

    If you would like to ask any questions, I will do my best to locate quotes from the writings that will answer them.

    Sorry, if I got long winded there.

    Loving Greetings, Harmony
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2004
  18. 9Harmony

    9Harmony goin' with the flow...

    Feb 20, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Hi Susma,

    Baha'u'llah was imprisoned and exiled for 40 years. He lived in the utmost poverty. And the entire 40 years of His mission he taught us how to live in peace and harmony with one another. He never waivered. He was known as the Father of the poor. Check it out... If you meant what you said above ...he's your prophet. ;-)

    Loving Greetings, Harmony
  19. benOddo

    benOddo Member

    Jan 28, 2004
    Likes Received:

    Remember Jesus said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, untill heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by an means disappear from the Law untill everything is accomplished". Matt. 5:17-18

    I also would not put much faith, in non-canonical writtings, don't forget why John wrote Revelations. It is more a warning against the Western Church of John's time then we sometimes like to admit. These writtings were more to build up the Roman church, to validate their own positions and orthrodoxy in the West. What was the Easter Controversy? and the martydom of Polycarp and Polycreates, why the Great Schism?, How the Christian Church was treated from 32AD to 313 AD. (the Edict of Toleration, Sunday was made the day of rest, by Constantine whom became a Christian, but was only baptized on his death bed.)

    So has the 4th Commandment been done away with, No! Jesus observed it before the cross, and for over forty days after the Resurrection Day that was called the Lords Sabbath Day, a Special Sabbath, when the next day started at twilight between the evenings, this was the start of Sunday not as a fast, but as a feast day, a day of joy. Where the 14th day Sabbath of Passover, was also a special Sabbath, for the Jew a day of feast, for the Christians a fast day.
    It was the only two Special Sabbath days the early church observed each year, at twilight of the 14th day and three days after the Passover feast, this was why Polycarp was martyred.
    The early church fathers rested on the Sabbaths, and at twilight after the Sabbath was over, they met again it was evening (the start of the next week, called Sunday or 1st day, Barnabas called it the eight day)

    Consider this for the moment, the Roman State and its religion, the Jewish state and it's religion, from the Maccabene times, the Jews had an Alliance with Rome, to keep the Greeks at bay. This alliance afforded the Jews, freedom of religion, Rome had it's Gods, some adopted from the Greek, over time. The Romans did not reconize the Christians, or one God, let alone the Son of God Jesus. It was not untill Constantine, that Christians found relief, and religious freedom. By then the Sunday was made into the REST day. But what was this really about? It was the work week and world trade, more than religious observance.

    Rome made sure, it held sway over the world. It came to a point even the Greek Church split off from Rome. The apostle John foreseen this early on, his Revelation warns the churches, and it is clear what it means.
    The Church in Rome was the only one against Revelations of John, being in the canon of scriptures.
    Think! What is the one lie, Rome has wanted the world to believe, that the early church was not a part to. Is that Christ was Crucified on the 6th day (Friday) and Resurrected on Sunday.
    What did Jesus say the sign, would be? The sign of Jonah! and the truth of Daniels Seventy Sevens, or Seventy Weeks, shortened as even the Latin text reads. The bishops of Rome over looked Daniels Seventy sevens, they use historic records, the Julian calandar month of April, 31 A.D. Where the first day of the month, starts on the 1st day of the week, or Sunday, and the 13th day, Preperation day, and the 14th day is a Sat./Sabbath (thought to be the Passover)

    But in 31 A.D. it was the Jewish year 3791 CE, the month of Nisan or as God decreed the month of Abib. (Ex. 12) Jesus was our Lamb, the Lamb of God, the message given to Daniel was and is still true. The Jewish month given as a sign, the month of Abib/Nisan, started when the watchmen of the Sanhedrin, first seen the New moon,(Rosh Chodesh) at the twilight between the two evenings of the 11th and 12th days of April, 31 (Julian) on the 5th day of the week, the Rosh Chodesh of Nisan a Thursday.
    Even Josephus records the fact, that was handed down from father to son, that during the whole time of the building of Herods temple, it did not rain during the daytime, but only at night.
    (Antig. 15.11.7-{425}) I'm sure if there was rain at night, there were clouds at night. And that truly is and was a manifestation of God.

    Making the Sabbath days of the Feasts High Holy days fall on the 10th day, 14th day, 17th day, and the 15th,21st, 28th days, the weeks of counting for Penecost according to the Law. Where the regular Sabbaths of the month were, 3rd, 24th, the 10th being the Special Sabbath, the 17th the Sabbath of Sheaf Waving, of new grain either barley or wheat, done by the priest at the start of the Sabbath.

    Then to see, what took place during the Passion Week, and the month sign from Daniel, we must remember the regulations for the Feasts.
    (As a study of this, take afew sheets of note paper or 5x7 cards, number them for the days of the month, and write for each day from the Gospels as they apply for each day, place them up on the wall or cork board, in the order of the Jewish month, Nisan)

    From Ex. 12:1-14 The first month is given.
    The regulations for the Passover, Ex. 12: 43-51, 13:4, 14:4, 34:18,19,21,25-28. Lev. 23:5; Nu 9:1-14, 28:16; Dt. 16:1-3a, 4b-7

    Unleavened Bread, Ex. 12:15-20; 13:3-10; 23:15; 34:18; Lev.23:6-8; Nu 28:17-25; Dt 16:3b, 4a, 8

    Firstfruits, Lev 23:9-14

    Who's day is it? The roman day started at sun rise, say 6am , the third hour at 9am, 6th hr, at noon. The week started with Solis day ended with Saturns day.

    The Hebrew day, started from twilight (dusk) darkness 12 hours night, to twilight (dawn) light of the Sun 12 hours, regarding the Creation days from first being dark and then light.
    The weekdays were just numbered, 1-7th, it is assumed the Creation month started on Sunday (1st day of the week) where all the rest days are 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th.
    (like the month of Feb. 2004 for example)

    Now we all know where we get the A.D. years (?) from, why Rome and a Pope, (I won't go it to that here.) But because of it we have the B.C. years, but to see the month of Abib, which God appointed, as the first month. The Hebrew counting of years, were dated from the Exodus, counted back to the Creation, by the first century leaders, and coincide with the calendars we have used, first with the Julian, and Gregorian (another decree from Rome) Anyway the year 2004 is 5764 CE, and the year 606 BC is 3154 CE, and 6BC is 3754 CE.
    By using the CE years, a time line graph can easily show the events of history, where B.C. and A.D. can be referanced to.

    Daniel knew from scriptures, the years of kings and the accounts of the Patriarch's and could of dated the Hebrew calendar years, just as easily as Hillel did. He was carried off to Babylon at the age of thirteen, was taught the knowledge of the land, which being at the cross roads of the trade routes, would of learned of the latest theorys, of say, Meton, let alone the mathematics of Babylon. He was, because of his knowledge, a man of high position, and highly esteem not only by Nebuchadnezzar, but by God Almighty. Because he was a devout Hebrew (read his prayer, Da.9:4-19) The whole prayer is about not keeping the Sabbaths, the Sabbath years, even though Sabbath is not mentioned once, but we all know that was the reason.
    At the start of Chapter 9, Daniel states; It's the first year of Darius, and he knows from books and Jeremiah the Word of the Lord, said seventy years must pass. Daniel was not the only 80 year old man in Babylon, waiting for these 70 years to pass. Ezra and Nehemiah record the decrees and return, the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and the Temple, and were contemporaries. (see. 2 Chron. 36:20-23)

    The first year of Darius, in 539 BC/3221 CE is Daniels 80th year, when he was taken to Babylon 67 years prior he was thirteen years old, in the year 3154CE/606BC. The 70 years told to Jeremiah were for the people, Daniels 70, is for the Temple, from 3174CE to 3244CE/516BC
    The Vision:
    ver.24, Seventy 'sevens'
    ver.25, seven 'sevens' and sixty-two 'sevens'
    ver.26, After sixty-two 'sevens'
    ver.27, one 'seven' in the middle of the 'seven'

    The seventy spoken of in the Hebrew, mean more than one, or mulitiple's (shibiym-{shib'eem} shavuim, of shib'ah, shib-aw' or seven, a week, sh bu'ah,-sheb-oo-aw'

    These sevens are symbolic of weeks, months and years, for the past, present, and future senses of Daniel, of Jesus Christ, of the Temple and Jerusalem, the Decrees of Men, and Commands of God and His apponted times.

    Untill the Anointed one comes, there are sixty-two sevens and seven sevens, since there are two 62 sevens, and in the sense of duelality two seven sevens, that would be two periods of 7x7=49 years or 98 years, plus 62x7 = 434 years, which total 532 years to the Birth of the Anointed One, 539 BC/3221CE to 7BC/3753CE. The angel Gabriel spoke with Mary, and Joseph, Jesus was born in 6BC, the order by Herod to kill all babies 2 years old and younger was given, Joseph and Mary took Jesus to Egypt, Herod died in 4BC, just after an eclispe of the moon, fixed at March 12-13, 4BC, just before Passover, 14th of Nisan, and fell on April 4th, 4BC. The symbolic month of Nisan 31AD, was determined by the first new moon after the spring equinox, the 25th day of April was the Passover that year. The attempt by Rome, to date the Birth of Christ, has been a farce and blasphemy, for all these years.

    In 539BC it was 3 1/2 years, for Daniel, untill the 70 year of Jeremiahs prophecy and the fall of Babylon and the first decree of Cyrus king of Persia, (Ezra 1:2-4)and the first return,in 535BC work starts, on the Temple Altar, which the men of the Trans-Euphrates oppose, they write to king Artaxerxes, he in turn issues a decree to stop work on the temple, but the prophets and leaders still work on the walls and trench. The men of Trans-Euphrates seeing the work in progress, ask why, they then write to king Darius, after a search of records, the decree of Cyrus is found and Darius issues a decree to rebuild in 520BC, this all takes place in the approximate middle of the 49 years, first half of 98 years, the Temple is completed in 516 BC, in the month of Adar, on the 3rd day. On the 14th day of the next month Abib/Nisan, Passover is celebrated.
    Ezra's second return, in the middle of the 2nd half of the 98 years/sevens, or second 49 year period, with the consecrated Silver, Gold, and Bronze for the Temple, from the 9th thru 12th day of Nisan they rested, and set out on the 12th from Ahava Canal, and reached Jerusalem by the 1st day of the fifth month of Ab, 458BC. From 520BC to 458BC, was 62 years/sevens, in the middle of the 98 sevens. But also consider that these two periods of forty nine years, they could not observe the 50th (Jubilee years) but Praise God Almighty! Look and consider, in the middle of the 98 sevens, On the 13th day of the 12th month Adar, an edict from king Xerxes, and Queen Esther is carried out on the 13th, 14th days, and 15th day, a day of resting, feasting and joy.

    After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed One, would confirm a covanant, be cut off, in the middle of the seven;

    From 7BC/3753 to 70AD/ 3830 is seventy seven years/sevens, in the middle a week of seven years, in the middle of the week, a year appointed by God. The middle year 31AD/3791CE, 3 1/2 years earlier was 28 AD/3788CE (from 539BC/3221CE it was, 70 + 490 + 7 = 567 sevens/years. Half of 77 is 38.5 or 38 civil years before and after one Holy year/seven, and 38 civil years after. (the years of rebelion)
    In the middle of the Civil year 31AD, the 7th month Nisan/Abib, the first month of your year (Sacred appointed by God) at His Appointed Time.

    A week of Seventy, in the middle of the seven, the fourth days of the month (Wednesdays)
    (Look at your calendar today Jan, 2004)
    In the middle of the weeks, count the days 7+ 14+ 21+ 28 = ?
    After the weeks of sixty-two, count the Mondays, 5+ 12+ 19+ 26=?
    Now consider the 13+ 14+ 15 =? Take a Hi-liter and color them in, with the days of 70.
    forty-two from seventy is 28. the first year of the seven year week. that Jesus started his ministry of 3 1/2 years. The passion week, the 10th day was a Sabbath, the 9th day they made preparations, for the Feast, they had chosen a year old lamb, to hold for four days according to the Law, they had the Last Supper in the evening after the Sabbath, after supper they went to Gethsemane at Mount of Olives at twilight the start of the first day of the week, The Lamb of God was betrayed, Jesus was taken first to Annas the high priest, then to the Sanhedrin high priest, Caiaphas, early the next morning they took Jesus to Pilate, he questioned Jesus, learning Jesus was Galilean, Pilate sent him to Herod Antipas, after being questioned a third time, Jesus was ridiculed and mocked, the soldiers put an elegant robe on Jesus, and Herod Antipas sends Jesus back to Pilate

    Let's consider the first Exile, as the last half of the Week 70 X 50 =? a time, a times and a half a time. the Commands of God, the giving of the Law. the 38 years/sevens of rebelion,
    the counting of the Sabbath years, the 1400 years/sevens from Joshua in 1406BC/2354CE, to the Birth of Jesus is 28 Sevens, in 6 BC/3754CE ( 28 x 50= 1400)

    Is prophecy dead? If what the prophets proclaimed, are yet to be fullfilled, then the prophecy is still in effect. In 2 Chron. 36:15-16, the prophets and messengers God sent, even then were ignored.
    Gabriel was sent to Daniel, and even today, the message is refuted, but it's still in effect. And is as sure as all of God's appointed times are. Wheather we can see it or not, But if we read it today, and don't understand it, we are to ask in Jesus's name, and we are given insight, into what is ment. And the Good News, then as now, first to the Jew, and to the Gentile, is "Repent! The Kingdom of God is at hand."

    Again peace,
    ben Oddo
  20. 9Harmony

    9Harmony goin' with the flow...

    Feb 20, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Hi Ben,

    Looks like you've invested alot of time into this. This topic is way outside of my realm of expertise, but...

    If your beginning date is off though it will change the whole outcome. Here is a brief outline from the Baha'i perspective...

    "Genesis vii.11 -- The waters of the flood came on the 17th day of the second month.
    Genesis viii.4 -- The waters abated and ceased on the 17th day of the seventh month.
    Genesis vii.24: -- The waters prevailed upon the earth 150 days.

    From the 17th day of the SECOND month until the 17th day of the SEVENTH month there were exactly FIVE months. These five months took exactly 150 days, indicating that each month lasted 30 days. There are other examples like this and scholars agree that they all point to a biblical year of 360 days (12months x 30days).

    The next important point is that one day is one year! This too is accepted by scholars based on various passages, such as: -

    Eze 4:6 "I have appointed thee each day for a year."

    Numbers 13:34 "...After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year"

    OK! To understand any of the biblical time prophecies you have to atleast be familiar with these two points. You can see now how clearly it applies to Christ with the following prophecy from Daniel 9 (referring to the coming Messiah / Christ): -

    Da 9:24
    SEVENTY WEEKS are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    Da 9:25
    Know therefore and understand, that FROM THE GOING FORTH OF THE COMMANDMENT TO RESTORE AND TO BUILD JERUSALEM unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Da 9:26
    And after threescore and two weeks SHALL MESSIAH BE CUT OFF...

    Basically, Daniel prophesises that from the "going forth of the decree to rebuild Jerusael" until the Messiah is "cut off" will be 70 weeks. This 70 week period is broken down further in 9:25-27 into 62 weeks, 7 weeks and 1 week; but this is too much detail for now.

    Using the rules I described earlier, we can see that 70 weeks is the same as 70 x 7 days = 490 days. Using the "day for a year" rule this is 490 years.

    In the year 457BC, King Artaxerxes issued a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, beginning the 70 week / 490 year period. EXACTLY 490 YEARS LATER, IN 34AD - THE MESSIAH (Christ) WAS CUT OFF / CRUCIFIED!!!!! Remarkable! This is one of the main proofs of Christ cited by the Christian scholars. Using the same rules consider how the 2300 day period in Daniel 8 ended in 1844AD (-457BC + 2300 = 1844); that's why so many people were expecting Christ that year! The 1260 year period in Revelation 11 also ended in 1844AD! In fact, they all pretty much did!" (copied from another forum)

    So according to our perception this has already occurred and we have access to all of the historical records to show that something remarkable did indeed happen in 1844. May I suggest that while you're waiting to see if your figures are correct in 40 years, you investigate the claims of One who claimed in no uncertain terms that He is the one we have been waiting for. “…Say Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: Ye cannot bear it now.’…” Bahá’u’lláh, Lawh-í-Aqdás

    God indeed works in mysterious ways.

    Loving Greetings, Harmony

Share This Page