The case of Abdul Rahman

[Devadatta]

As you know, this is the Afghan man who converted to Christianity some years ago and is now under trial for his life. Even "moderate" clerics in Afghanistan, ones who opposed the Taliban, are calling for the death penalty by beheading, hanging or - if necessary - by public dismemberment.

As you might expect, all of this is fairly incomprehensible to non-muslims. So I would respectfully like to pose several questions:

1. Christians along with Jews are "people of the book" following the same monotheistic tradtion and worshipping the same God. I understand that the only problem with Christian doctrine from the Muslim point of view is that it contains certain errors as to the nature of Jesus, etc., which were later corrected in Islam. Fundamentally, Mr. Rahman is still worshipping the God of Islam, as far as I can see, so I'm a little perplexed as to why he would merit the ultimate penalty.

2. Does this duty to kill such converts appear in the Koran itself; if so, could you point me to the precise Surah?

3. On the other hand, if this duty is explicitly stated in a hadith, is this hadith universally acknowledged among all Muslims, or only among some?

4. Do you personally agree with the Afghan clerics who feel that Mr. Rahman, and others like him, should be killed?

Thanks in advance for your responses

 

[Out There]

As you know, this is the Afghan man who converted to Christianity some years ago and is now under trial for his life. Even "moderate" clerics in Afghanistan, ones who opposed the Taliban, are calling for the death penalty by beheading, hanging or - if necessary - by public dismemberment.

As you might expect, all of this is fairly incomprehensible to non-muslims. So I would respectfully like to pose several questions:

1. Christians along with Jews are "people of the book" following the same monotheistic tradtion and worshipping the same God. I understand that the only problem with Christian doctrine from the Muslim point of view is that it contains certain errors as to the nature of Jesus, etc., which were later corrected in Islam. Fundamentally, Mr. Rahman is still worshipping the God of Islam, as far as I can see, so I'm a little perplexed as to why he would merit the ultimate penalty.

2. Does this duty to kill such converts appear in the Koran itself; if so, could you point me to the precise Surah?

3. On the other hand, if this duty is explicitly stated in a hadith, is this hadith universally acknowledged among all Muslims, or only among some?

4. Do you personally agree with the Afghan clerics who feel that Mr. Rahman, and others like him, should be killed?

Thanks in advance for your responses

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear questioner! Thank you very much for this question that reflects deep insight and true search for knowledge. May Allah grant you success in this life and the Hereafter.


It goes without saying that, leaving Islam is the ugliest and the worst form of disbelief (kufr) in Almighty Allah. It is technically called ridda (apostasy from Islam), and someone who leaves Islam is called a murtadd (apostate).


The Qur'an makes it clear that the one who leaves Islam, hinders people from the path of Allah and then dies as such will be a loser on the Day of Judgment. His eternal abode will be Hell, where he/she will suffer severe torture and endless chastisement. Allah will not forgive him/her, nor will any of his/her good deeds be accepted from him/her. Allah Almighty says: (Lo! Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.) (Muhammad 47: 34)


Also, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said: "The blood of a Muslim who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah is not lawful to shed unless he be one of three: a married adulterer, someone killed in retaliation for killing another, or someone who abandons his religion and the Muslim community.''

The prescribed punishment for a murtadd:


If a sane person who has reached puberty voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be punished.‏ In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.‏


No one besides the caliph or his representative may kill the apostate. If someone else kills him, the killer is disciplined (for arrogating the caliph's prerogative and encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties).


There is no blood money for killing an apostate (or any expiation). If he apostatizes from Islam and returns several times, his return to Islam, which occurs when he states the two Testifications of Faith, is accepted from him, although he is disciplined.


If a spouse in a consummated marriage apostatizes from Islam, the couple are separated for a waiting period (`iddah) consisting of three intervals between menstrual cycles. If the spouse returns to Islam before the waiting period ends, the marriage is not annulled but is considered to have continued the whole time.


(Based on 'The Reliance of the Traveler, by Ahmad Ibn Naqib Al-Misri, with some amendments.)


In addressing the issue of apostasy it is important to keep in mind the time, circumstances and the conditions that existed at the time of a particular ruling or judgment. Most modern governments do not apply Shari`ah law. However, this does not justify individuals taking it upon themselves to kill people if they apostatize from Islam. If this were to happen, such reckless action would only lead to a vicious circle of murder and homicide in which case a great deal of innocent people would be injured. As it stands presently, the means for dealing with apostasy are appropriate. Muslims should know that Almighty Allah has promised the apostate a severe punishment in this life, and an even greater punishment in the next life.

www.islamonline.net

 

[Devadatta]

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Allah Almighty says: (Lo! Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.) (Muhammad 47: 34)


Also, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said: "The blood of a Muslim who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah is not lawful to shed unless he be one of three: a married adulterer, someone killed in retaliation for killing another, or someone who abandons his religion and the Muslim community.''

Hey Aidyl.

As I've already noted, Christians, Jews & Muslims all worship the same God, so converting from one sub-community to the other is not a question of disbelief. Christian & Jews are already Muslims in the broadest sense because they recognize the One God and submit to His Will. So converting to Christianity is not turning away from God or from the Muslim community in its largest sense. It is only turning away from certain words, and from a certain structure of power.

But even if Christian conversion were a question of disbelief bringing punishment in the afterlife, why would God demand that such people be killed? (There's clearly no such demand in the quote you've given from the Koran.) It seems to me that a merciful God would give them every opportunity to return to the fold. Isn't eternal punishment punishment enough?

[text removed]
Sincerely,
Devadatta

 

[thipps]

h| Aidyl Nurhadi,
try to give references when you quote Quran and Hadith. Makes alot of things easier for the muslims in general as well as the non-muslims. The hadith you quoted... as far as I could tell was the one narrated by Abdullah in Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 83(Blood Money), Hadith #17. Hope I got it right.
jazaakallah,
thipps.

 

[thipps]

Hey Aidyl.

As I've already noted, Christians, Jews & Muslims all worship the same God, so converting from one sub-community to the other is not a question of disbelief. Christian & Jews are already Muslims in the broadest sense because they recognize the One God and submit to His Will. So converting to Christianity is not turning away from God or from the Muslim community in its largest sense. It is only turning away from certain words, and from a certain structure of power.

This is not a philosophy class where 'the broadest sense' prevails. What prevails is the Quran and Authentic Sunnah.
You say that becoming christian doesnt mean to turn away from God? Please read the Quran but if nothing, read 112:1-4. Prescribing a son to God is a lie as far as Islam is concerned. Lying about God is no small thing. Do you inform us about God what you know not?
regards,
thipps.

 

[Devadatta]

This is not a philosophy class where 'the broadest sense' prevails. What prevails is the Quran and Authentic Sunnah.
You say that becoming christian doesnt mean to turn away from God? Please read the Quran but if nothing, read 112:1-4. Prescribing a son to God is a lie as far as Islam is concerned. Lying about God is no small thing. Do you inform us about God what you know not?
regards,
thipps.

Hi Thipps.

Well, yes here we have a distinct difference. For me these are indeed philosophical/theological arguments, and God – at least the way I use this term – is by definition beyond such arguments. So again, for me switching one’s monotheistic tag from “Muslim” to “Christian” cannot be construed as turning away from or insulting God.

As for the Christian creed regarding the nature of Jesus, you probably know that this was arrived at with much pain & struggle, that there were many variations, some of which were more congruent with Muslim belief and indeed continue among some Christian dissidents to this day. My personal belief is that Jesus was the son of God only in the sense we all are, but I’m not particularly bothered by the fact that many Christians believe he was the son of God in the exclusive sense. Neither belief, in my view, is an insult to God, who I take to be merciful enough to tolerate all our stuttering attempts to describe her. In any case, the idea that God would condemn sincere believers and call them “liers” simply because of some bad metaphysics is incomprensible to me.

What truly concerns, even worries me here is the fact that you’re conflating Quranic discourse, that is a set of verbal structures or conceptual system, with the actual nature of God. I recognize that for Muslims such conflation is integral to practice, just as the conflation of the New Testament and the word (logos) of God is integral to the practice of most Christians. But for me the problem arises when you step outside the field of your practice and extrapolate the verbal structures of Quranic Arabic to all times and to all peoples. Many Christians of course have a similar history of universalizing their core texts, which for me is no less troubling.

Naturally, this is only my point of view, but it seems to me all traditions, including yours, affirms the ultimate inconceivability of God. In this view, God is beyond the Vedas, the Bible, the Quran, the Granth Sahib, and every other scripture. That is not to say that these scriptures don’t have a lot to say about God, but that they are only pointers to a reality beyond all verbal construction.

I believe it’s this inappropriate extension of a conflation of words with reality that leads to such grave consequences as condemning converts to death for merely referring to the still transcendent God in slightly different terms.

Sincerely,
Devadatta

 

[zoser]

"THOU SHELT NOT KILL" Seems clear to me.

 

[thipps]

"THOU SHELT NOT KILL" Seems clear to me.

Thou shall not preach judaism.
and read the hadith Aidyl quoted. its pretty clear in which 3 cases a muslim gets the death penalty.

 

[zoser]

I dont mean to offend anyone but thats not just judaism.

 

[peter_sadiq]

Death Penalty for Apostates! Deos Holy Quran says this?

Abdul Rehman, of Afghanistan, is facing a threat of Death Penalty for his conversion to Christianity. BBC quoting this news writes:

Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.

It is really regretting that the distorted understanding of Islam held by the Mullahs is causing very bad impression & bad name for Islam.


In Holy Quran Allah says that “There is No compulsion in Religion”. But despite this very clear verdict, these Mullahs do not hesitate to attribute Horrible Doctrines towards Islam which are causing very bad name for Islam all around the world.


It is not just illiterate Mullahs and masses who atribute such inhuman concepts towards Islam, rather, even the most visionary and learned considered scholars (Like Maulana Maudoodi & Dr. Israr Ahmad) are presenting Islam in a manner that is not acceptable to the very nature of human. Two such aspects are "The Status of Non-Muslims in an Islamic State" and the "Death Patently for Apostates".


According to these visionary & learned scholars, anyone once is Muslim (either by birth or by conversion) if turn to any other religion then such a person must be put to Death. These Mullahs go so far that even if one declares himself/herself as Muslim but dares to differ the Mullahs in their understanding of Islam even then such person must be killed according to their interpretation of Islam


Following are few other illogical and inhuman concepts of these Mullahs (Including Maudoodi & Dr. Israr Ahmad):


1: In an Ideal Islamic State Non-Muslims will be "Second Grade Citizens".

2: They will not be allowed to preach their religion.

3: They could not attain high civil or military ranks despite their capabilities.

4: The Ideal Islamic State will offer three options to Non-Muslim world:
a) Either they become Muslim and enjoy equal status.
b) Or they surrender to Islamic State and accept to live as second grade citizens under Islamic Rule
c) If none of above is acceptable then they should be ready for invasion/war from Islamic State.


Videos {with English Sub-Titles} of Dr. Israr Ahmad, mentioning all above so-called Islamic doctrines are available at http://www.real-islam.org/audio under the Titles "Mullah’s World Order" & "A Confession of Defeat"

 

[kiwimac]

Regardless of Sharia law, the constitution of Afghanistan prohibits discrimination on the grounds of religion. Abdul Rahman should be released and allowed to leave Afghanistan.

As a follower of Ahura Mazda I would argue that in the Gathas, we are told to "choose the right" which implies that God has left the choice in matters of faith to us. Indeed I would go further, the God of Zarathustra, is not a God of "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not". God in Zoroastrianism does not care what you wear, what and when you eat or where and when you worship. God instead cares how righteous, progressive and good you are.

As Zarathustra says,

Hear the best with your ears
and ponder with a bright mind.
Then each man and woman, for his or her self,
select either of the [following] two.
Awaken to this Doctrine of ours
before the Great Event of Choice ushers in.

(Gathas: Song 3 - stanza 2)





Kiwimac

 

[kiwimac]

I dont mean to offend anyone but thats not just judaism.

Zoser,

No offense is given where none is taken. I am surprised at a Muslim objecting to "Thou shalt not kill."

Kiwimac

 

[kiwimac]

Further to this,

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

​

CAIR CALLS FOR RELEASE OF AFGHAN CHRISTIAN
​

Islamic civil rights group says conversion a personal, not state matter

​

(WASHINGTON, D.C., 3/22/2006) - A prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group today called on the government of Afghanistan to release Abdul Rahman, a man facing the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity.

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) says the man's conversion is a personal matter not subject to the intervention of the state. SEE: Afghan Christian Could Face Death

In its statement, CAIR said:

"Islamic scholars say the original rulings on apostasy were similar to those for treasonous acts in legal systems worldwide and do not apply to an individual's choice of religion. Islam advocates both freedom of religion and freedom of conscience, a position supported by verses in the Quran, Islam's revealed text, such as:

1) 'If it had been the will of your Lord that all the people of the world should be believers, all the people of the earth would have believed! Would you then compel mankind against their will to believe?' (10:99)
2) '(O Prophet) proclaim: 'This is the Truth from your Lord. Now let him who will, believe in it, and him who will, deny it.'' (18:29)
3) 'If they turn away from thee (O Muhammad) they should know that We have not sent you to be their keeper. Your only duty is to convey My message.' (42:48)
4) 'Let there be no compulsion in religion.' (2:256)

"Religious decisions should be matters of personal choice, not a cause for state intervention. Faith imposed by force is not true belief, but coercion. Islam has no need to compel belief in its divine truth. As the Quran states: 'Truth stands out clear from error. Therefore, whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks.' (2:256)

"We urge the government of Afghanistan to order the immediate release of Mr. Abdul Rahman."

Before issuing its statement, CAIR consulted with members of the Fiqh Council of North America, an association of Islamic legal scholars that interprets Muslim religious law.

CAIR, America's largest Muslim civil liberties group, has 32 offices, chapters and affiliates nationwide and in Canada. Its mission is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.

- END -

​

CONTACT: Ibrahim Hooper, 202-488-8787 or 202-744-7726, E-Mail: ihooper@cair-net.org; Rabiah Ahmed, 202-488-8787 or 202-439-1441, E-Mail: rahmed@cair-net.org

Source: http://www.cair-net.org/

Kiwimac

 

[iBrian]

Case dismissed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4848614.stm

 

[kiwimac]

Lets wait and see.Kiwimac

 

[thipps]

Re: Death Penalty for Apostates! Deos Holy Quran says this?

It is not just illiterate Mullahs and masses who atribute such inhuman concepts towards Islam, rather, even the most visionary and learned considered scholars (Like Maulana Maudoodi & Dr. Israr Ahmad) are presenting Islam in a manner that is not acceptable to the very nature of human.

They are mostly considered visionary by people within the sub-continent region and more so in pakistan especially Maudoodi. You will be very surprised if you take his name outside pakistan. I dont consider them visionaries and neither great scholars.
I dont want to waver from the topic and i suggest you do the same but since you mention them and erroenously state them to be considered visionaries, I thought it pertinent to point out the nature of this reality.
If you know Maudoodi and the relevant political party, you would know thier philosophy and thier traits, and that would point you towards what they really are. secondly, if you read his tafseer(explanation of the Quran), you would again be pointed towards what he really was.
Dr. Israr is a similar issue somewhat as he talks quite positively about Maudoodi though he says many other good things too but that doesnt negate the former attitude. He admits that he is mostly self-taught though he was helped along the way by some others as well which he named. So, obviously, there is much left to be desired.
peter sadiq, i suggest that you not portray the likes of the residents of one country and project them as somewhat universal.. they arent. As you can see, they definitely are not even universal in pakistan.
regards,
thipps.

 

[Devadatta]

Hi Phipps.

I’ve realized that the views I’ve expressed so far in this thread are really so foreign to your worldview as to cut off all discussion. So I apologize for that.

And I have to admit to having been fairly blissfully ignorant up to this point on how deeply this notion of apostasy goes in Islam. Since then, I’ve done a little research. You are quite correct that yours is the dominant view on this, both among the legal schools and in the general culture of many Muslim nations.

In fact, I think apostasy is the key issue in Islam and its relationship to other faiths, non-faiths and the modern world in general. The notion of apostasy lies at the root of religiously sanctioned violence; it explains phenomena like rioting over cartoons, and forms one of the foundations for otherwise inexplicable phenomena like extremist terrorism.

Now, I would be really depressed if I thought the view you and some others have presented here, common or mainstream as it may be, is the only one, or the only one possible for Islam – because I don’t know how such a view can ever be reconciled with even the most fundamental notions of human rights & freedoms.

Luckily, this traditional view of apostasy is not the only one. I have discovered other Muslim views that hold the Koran does not sanction killing or severe punishment for mere apostasy, that as in the New Testament punishment for unbelief is more properly left to God, that much of what is taken for granted by the ordinary Muslim is often the later construction of legal scholars & clerics, conditioned by the needs & politics of the day, and raising to universal principles what was meant only for a particular time & place. In short, these other views say that another Islam is possible, and indeed more representative of its great achievements of the past.

I recognize that these are very complicated & sensitive questions, and it would require a lot of discussion of the relevant texts and their history to adequately understand one another. At present, I wouldn’t be up to the task.

But I have begun a careful re-reading of the Koran with a view to developing a deeper understanding. Should I develop that I understanding and feel I have anything of benefit to offer, I would like to return to this forum for a discussion of what the Koran says, strictly in its own terms.

In the meantime, I’d like to encourage any Muslims with alternate views on this core issue to start posting. It can only enrich the discussion & increase understanding.

Sincerely,
Devadatta

 

[Amica]

Peace be to all of you.

I am a Muslim and do not agree with the threat to kill this man's life. First of all, the hadith quoted by some is a hadith thought to be said by the Prophet Muhammad savs. We cannot know this for sure.

Second of all, if Prophet Muhammad savs ordered people killed simply for apostasy, then that would contradict the Holy Qur'an and its commandments about no compulsion in religion, 'you have your faith and I have mine, ' etc.

A Muslim is to kill a disbeliever only when he is attacked and his life, the life of his family and Muslim community is in danger. Of course if Islam is being prevented from practice--that is opression of Muslims.

Second of all, Allah Almighty never says (to my understanding, at least) that the Jews and Christians are disbelievers. It is stated that they are in error about certain things, that many of them do not believe in Him, but the Almighty constantly reminds us that some among the People of the Bible do believe!

If the hadith where Prophet Muhammad savs was reported ordering of the apostates to be killed is true, the question then should be asked what else was considered in the decision because in the Prophet's time the apostasy meant treason because those who left Islam in his time went to fight and kill Muslims later. In our day this may not be the case. Abdul Rahman while converted to Christianity, did not threaten Muslims around him and did not certainly try to kill anyone.

I read in my local newspapers that a family member notified the 'authorities' about this new Christian man after an argument. One cannot help but wonder what was reported about him to the afghan authorities.

Because after all if this man's 'guilt' is only conversion to Christianity, then what should they do to the president Karhzai who is ally of the Christians, and helped create a constitution providing 'freedom of religion' in Afghanistan, meaning Islam cannot be a dominant one.

I believe there is more to the story. And I believe this man has a right to choose his own belief system. If God wanted to leave him in Islam, Abdul Rahman would still be a Muslim. Maybe through this man, God Almighty is trying to teach Muslims to remember that God Almighty did not create everyone in the world to be Muslim and that so long as people are not killing us, attacking us and opressing Islam, we are not allowed to mistreat and attack other people.

 

[Quahom1]

He is in Italy, and has been given asylum. He has been called insane at home. Yet, clerics have and still are calling for his execution. Why would anyone want to execute an "insane man" who has done no physical harm to anyone, and who has left his original sphere of potential influence (able to possibly convert others from the Islamic faith)? I find it ironic that when the Hommenei (sp) of Iran was in exile, no one went after him (while he lived in France), but let someone say (I want no part of Islam), and that is a death sentence? How can that be explained as reasonable and logical?

The man changed his mind. Worst case scenario, shun him. Turn one's back on the rejector. Let him leave and not come back. Calling for his execution due to law? What law? The Qu'ran? Isn't that the ultimate law of the Muslim? If so, somebody missed the boat.

Why are the clerics going after their new "democratic form more or less, of government"? This has the makings of the beginnings of a war within the country. Religious against secular.

Maybe the cynics are right...Islam and democratic principles may just be incompatible. In this case, those for democracy should quit while the quitting is good. Or maybe it isn't Islam that is the problem with democracy, but rather "individuals" who want power. As far as I can tell, Islam and democracy do work together, so there is another issue here, that we are not addressing, or are not privy to.

Where do I come up with this thought? Turkey is to Islam as the United States is to Christianity (majority faith per state). Yet, both adhere to a democratic form of government for the most part. And both are more or less stable in their governments...

my thoughts

v/r

q

 

[Amica]

Salaam/peace.

I feel sometimes like from another planet when I hear certain people among the Muslim community saying/doing certain things that, to my islamic upbringing, contradicts Islam.

I was raised among Muslims, went to religious classes to learn to pray and learn to be a better Muslim, and never heard that a person is to be killed if they left Islam. The imams in my bosnian hometown and in our Bosnia in general thought us that Islam does not teach to hate others, that we cannot force people to be Muslims and that we have to remember that if someone is pressuring us to believe other than Allah (God) then we should tell them that they have their faith and we have ours. Respectfully. I was never told by any of our imams to hate others because of what they believe and I was never told that converting to a faith that is monotheistic is something to kill for.

My eyes pop out when I see some things or hear certain individuals say some stuff! Can't comprehend that some people would hold a hadith in higher esteem than the Word of God (Qur'an) because the Holy Qur'an should topple every other writing we have in regards to the Shari'a laws! If the hadiths that some people are gripping on to in order to explain certain 'sharia' laws were true, they would not be contradicting the Holy Qur'an. And Allah Almighty said that if something is contradictory it is not from Him! Obviously then a murder for apostasy would be contradictory to the Holy Qur'an because Allah/God in the Qur'an says that He did not create the people in the world to be all Muslims, that there must be no compulsion in religion, that we should respect others' believes but love our own, that Islam is the right path but that some people have a choice to turn a blind eye if they wish, that the death is spiritual and not something that we should cause.

Am I missing something or what? I believe that the Afghanistan needs a lot of social development, they need a lot of more reading into the Qur'an, etc.
We do not need an imam/cleric to tell me what is in the Qur'an. I can read the Book by myself and with God given help of my mind I can know in my mind and my heart what God is conveying to me. If there is something I do not understand I may ask others who may be knowledgable for possible interpretation, but most of all I could pray to the Almighty for help to understand. But I am not going to believe just anything some cleric tells me to believe. I am not receiving anyone to be my teacher because God is my Only True Teacher and I cannot accept that God would contradict Himself because He would never do that!

God forbid, why do some Muslims make Islam seem so horrific! Because of them there is increase in the islamophobia and because of them even those people who try to understand our struggles are taken by a shock!

I guess one hadith was certainly true: it says that in the End Times, there will be those who will speak things about Islam that will be new and something believers did not hear before, something of practice that was never practiced in Islam (i.e. accept Islam or die, stoning women, killing rape victims, etc. and all this claiming that it is from Islam and in truth these do not come from Islam).

I say, I am a Muslim. I believe in human freedom and right to believe what they want. I believe in Allah the Merciful, Almighty. I believe in His Word and His Truth. I believe in His Prophets pbut and I denounce those who want to speak in my name and in the name of my religion while commiting or demanding acts that are not islamic!