Thoughts on the Gadarene Swine

Thomas

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Dondi said:

Let me ask you something of curiousity, though. what would you call those beings that were cast into the swine of pigs from the possessed man in Mark 5. Were they astral being? If so, this opens up the question of animal possession in the nefesh.

I think, if we focus too heavily on this aspect, we're looking at it in the wrong dynamic.

Remember, the Astral Light etc, is a human construct, and the way it is presented is largely cosmological. Christianity bypasses all constructs and focusses on 'the one thing necessary', so whilst we are willing to speculate on the interpretation of this text, and appraoched from a Rosicrucian, or theosophical, or anthroposophical, angle, the answer will differ, I would rather answer from a Christian perspective.

Swine get two mentions in the Gospels - there first here, and later in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. In that story man squanders his birthright, becomes the hireling of strangers and is brought so low he is put to work tending the pigs, even to contemplating eating food from the trough, before he contemplates an apologetic return to his father.

The pig is Judaism is unclean - man can hardly sink lower than the prodigal son.

The spirits that possess the man are one, but their name is legion - so here we are talking of a multitude of spirits gathered under one principle.

I think the ejection of the spirits into a herd of pigs is metaphorical - all energy returns to the source of its arising, and the pigs signify 'uncleanliness' in this instance.

The pigs hurl themselves from a cliff into the waters - now a pig does not possess the wherewithall to make an ethical decision like Fr. ?(the name escapes me) in 'The Exorcist' - to take the demon into himself, and then kill himself (this would not kill the demon anyway). Nor, it seems to me, having just bargained for a home, would the legion spirits then destroy it ...

... but suppose the waters stand for the primordial waters, the 'deep' of Genesis, the primodial soup at the start of creation, then we have the spirits sent back into, effectively, nothingness, from which they arose ... it is axiomatic of Christianity that evil has no ultimate essence - evil is marked by the absence of everything good and natural - it is a condition of privation - that there are stages, deformed essences and corrupt presences, on the way to this ultimate 'anti-state' of being, I accept, but not an ultimate...

(Remember the devil is not the opposite of God - the devil is a fallen archangel and is countered by another archangel, St Michael)

So where does this leave us with regard to legion?

The Desert Fathers spoke of 'logismoi' - certain modes of thought that have to be purified if man is going to rise in the contemplative life. Logismoi are far more dangerous than demons because they are invisible, intangible, and apparently innocent ... but anyone who practices meditation will know the temptations come not from snarling beasts from the pit, but from those inconsequential 'trains of thought', those everyday distractions, when we suddenly realised the mind has wandered from its practice of concentration.

This is the subtlety of the adversary.

+++
"Make straight the ways of the Lord"

In Patristic Tradition (as in many others) purification is of the heart, not of the mind.

Repentance is the sign of this process, as proclaimed by St. John the Baptist, Christ Himself and, of course, by all of His Apostles, because repentance is the indispensable prerequisite for one to experience the Kingdom of God.

Purification of the heart - the inner world - is the first stage of the spiritual life, through which we must pass in order to attain to salvation.

Purification of the heart is the cure of the soul's faculty, so as to function in accordance with nature and above nature - not contrary to nature. The soul has three activities: the intelligent, the appetitive and the incentive. All three faculties, when functioning normally, are directed towards God. The intellect seeks God; the desire longs for God, and the will must do everything to achieve this communion and union with God.

(St Maximus refers to the three movements of the soul, a straight line, a circle, and a spiral.)

Purification is deliverance from pleasure and pain, in other words a person's liberation from the oppression exerted by pleasure and pain. When man is cleansed, he is freed from their domination. It is the spiritual pleasures which primarily are cultivated within him; and he does not become distressed or afflicted when diverse people or problems and adversities in life cause him pain.

Purification is the cleansing of the heart from the various thoughts/logismoi existing therein. They are called logismoi because they must dwell in the reason and not within the heart. What does this mean? When a "logismos" comes and a person is not sufficiently attentive, it then becomes a desire which wants to be fulfilled, i.e. realised. This means that the logismos proceeds from the intelligent faculty of the soul to the passible faculty, that is the faculties of desire and will. Being realised and developing into a passion the logismos enters, in fact, into the heart and remains all powerful there.

The above and the following is taken from:
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b15.en.orthodox_spirituality.02.htm

The whole is well worth reading.

The Fathers say that the heart can be cleansed of logismoi through the ascetic method of the Church. And this ascetic method is inspired by divine grace.

A simple thought may enter the reason but not find its way within the heart. When all logismoi are dismissed and the heart is cleansed, only one word-prayer prevails. The Prayer of the Heart, and this is the meaning of hesychia in Orthodoxy.

The most powerful and dangerous 'demons' or logismoi are the Seven Deadly Sins - although different saints have drawn up different lists at different times.

Search logismoi in google or wherever ...

Thomas
 
So you are saying that there weren't any "demons' in the conventional sense in the possessed man of Mark 5, not in the swine after? But what about the conversation these "demons" had with Jesus?:

But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many." - Mark 5:6-9


Surely, the knowledge that Jesus was the Son of God could not have come from the man himself. It had to come from something who knew who Christ was.

In another instance, in Luke 4:33-35, Jesus actually told the unclean spirit to shut up, again for the reason that He time had not yet come to reveal the fact that He was the Messiah:

"And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not."

This is something more than just negative thoughts or "logismoi" or mere inclination toward sin. Ephesians 6:12 speaks of "principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." This doesn't sound like something that is just psychosomatic. These things are real.
 
Thomas, inasmuch as you are taking a Christian approach (or a Catholic one) to Dondi's question, and since this is the Christian forum ... I follow your answer, and I am in agreement. However, in looking at Dondi's original question - as well as her response to you - I think there is a bit more clarification needed on just exactly whom and what occupies the astral plane.

So, again - your answer may differ slightly as a conventional Catholic, but as someone that acknowledges the teachings and tradition of Liberal Catholicism, I wanted to offer one possible answer to the original question. Of greatest usefulness in this instance will be a short guide written by Bishop C.W. Leadbeater (a Liberal Catholic priest) entitled `The Astral Plane.' Writing as a trained clairvoyant, Leadbeater describes the Astral Plane in great detail from direct observation ... and thus, not from speculation or hearsay, or from any secondhand perspective.

The main chapters on `SCENERY,' `INHABITANTS,' and `PHENOMENA' are each broken down in a very scientific manner into various categories, and it is the second of these chapters that is most relevant here. Again, Leadbeater is quite detailed in listing the possible encounters on the astral plane as being either 1) human living, 2) human dead, 3) non-human, and 4) artificial. The `astral record' or `Book of God's Remembrance,' mis-labeled the akash sometimes, isn't an entity at all, of course, but is really a part of the scenery of the astral, so it is described in the first section. It cannot be considered a phenomenon, for it is not produced, but rather, exists (receiving impressions reflexively & automatically).

Again, the reason I refer to Leadbeater's manual is that I am unfamilar with any such guide in conventional Christian literature - either recent or canonical - that is so thorough, so detailed, and so accurate in approaching the subject of the inhabitants (and encounters, divisions, etc.) of the astral plane. The book can be found online in its entirety. And it's worth consulting if any explanation is desired.

And here's a quote that may perhaps cast some light, from `The Gift of Healing' in Teachings of the Temple (Lesson 181, pp. 451-425):
The Christian and Mental healers as a rule base the righteousness of their acts of healing on the examples furnished by the Master Jesus, but they do not call attention to the record of His act of driving "the devils" - the elementals - afflicting the sick man into a drove of swine, nor do they perceive in that act a necessity for some similar act on their own part before attempting to heal a disease. Neither do they pretend to put the question asked by the disciples of Jesus, "Who did sin, this man or his parents?" when an inquiry is made as to their willingness to heal the sick, which question in the mouths of those disciples plainly showed belief in karma and reincarnation. Upon the answer received seems to have depended their power or willingness to heal. For it must be remembered that Jesus had been teaching those disciples the secrets of occultism for many days."
Although there are many indications given here by a Master (Hilarion, formerly St. Paul), the key words that are relevant to the swine are "the elementals." Master H. is perhaps indicating that it was the an artifical entity (of Leadbeater's classification) which obsessed the man - and were of necessity "offset" (or driven) into the swine. I'd suggest it was the specific category called "Elementals formed consciously" ... for indeed, their number is legion. :(

Fortunately, even a single disciple, strong in the faith (and with the strength of his brethren) - may resist the greatest of temptations, if he bears the Shield. Thomas, I would refer you to the Teachings (Agni Yoga, or Living Ethics) of Master M. (via Helena Roerich) for more about the latter. I believe you would find it most interesting ...

Love and Light,

taijasi
 
Psst, taij, Dondi is not a female.

Whew, taij. You have a way for exegesis. So you're saying that those these 'elementals' are even real, at least as beings. What about the conversations with Jesus which revealed things about Him that Jesus had yet disclose? If these elementals are created by the conscience, then how did they gain certain knowledge known yet only to Him?
 
Dondi said:
Psst, taij, Dondi is not a female.
:eek::eek::eek: AHem! Errr, oops! My apologies! Wow - how did I make that error!? (Ironically, I considered that before I posted, and still goofed! lol) Thanks for the correction. :)

Dondi said:
Whew, taij. You have a way for exegesis. So you're saying that those these 'elementals' are even real, at least as beings. What about the conversations with Jesus which revealed things about Him that Jesus had yet disclose? If these elementals are created by the conscience, then how did they gain certain knowledge known yet only to Him?
Hmmm. This is challenging, because I'm really not at all sure how to answer that. My best guess would be this:

Elementals, strangely enough, can be tremendously powerful, even though they are `artificial' by some classifications. Certainly they are not human, nor belonging to the Deva Kingdom (to confuse them with `elemental essence' or the "ensouling stuff of the astral world" would be like mistaking a shark with the water it swims in). But still they are real inasmuch as they THINK they are real, or they ACT that way. Just exactly HOW they act and think will depend on their originating impulse, but also importantly on how and how much they have been energized over the intervening months, years, centuries, even MILLENNIA.

Of course, there are some classes of Deva lives, even what are called `nature spirits,' that are perfectly innocent in terms of what we would call motive, or karma, yet can be terribly frightening and unpleasant if encountered. Occasionally someone may be the victim of their pranks if there is enough attention drawn to a certain medium or séance, or even certain types of divination. Rarely would this become serious, much less a true obsession/possession, but that can certainly happen. More likely, it will manifest as poltergeist, or pooka (I'm guessing both of these are Wiki-able).

Some classes of Deva, on the other hand, are quite dangerous to ANYONE who comes into contact with them, if unprepared or unshielded by the Wise and Loving guidance of a Master. Thomas refers to this, and while certainly I would agree that many shamen were and are so capable, I also know that some Devas would literally shatter anyone whom they contacted directly (not even intentionally, but just because it's like putting five billion gigawatts through a flimsy piece of low-gauge wire).

Fortunately, Devas of such power are NOT usually "at home" on the astral plane, meaning that their consciousness and receptivity is normally focused on much higher planes, and their work in most cases does not involve Humanity at all ... much less isolated individuals.

It would be a mistake, and unfortunate, btw, to confuse the MANY classes of healing Devas (found upon the etheric physical, astral, and other planes), Devas of Ceremonial, Devas of Music (as Gandharvas), and so forth as anything but Co-Creators with God (God's agents) ... for these are, many of them, precisely the same Beings (even the same Individuals) as mentioned in the Bible, both 2000 years ago and earlier.

Also, when it comes to elementals, perhaps the less said the better - but to directly answer your question, yes, I think it would be QUITE possible (even likely) that any number of powerful and obsessing elementals would READILY recognize the Christ - for that recognition would be the Presence of the direct antithesis of their very existence!!! This goes back to the fact that artificial elementals are created primarily from the FORM SIDE of nature, and not from the LIFE.

The point is that the nourishment of the substance of the elemental in question ... is precisely the reason for their obsession in the first place! They are artificially generated, yet when it comes to the consciousness or the awareness of the beings in question, we cannot imagine that they sit down and stop to ask themselves, "Hmmm, what's the ultimate nature of (my) existence?" ;) Or rather, to the extent that they do ask such questions, the answer is going to be the much more instinctual or animalistic one based on DESIRE, rather than anything in line with Divine WILL (the higher correspondence of desire).

Leadbeater provides as an example for the generation of many of these types of elementals the case of a black magician whose thought-creation was allowed to grow too powerful even for him to control. In some cases this is a real threat - since like the black magician it exists by a form of vampirism ... and can definitely be said to be drawing upon portions of the Divine LIFE for its own selfish ends and preservation. An elemental may go about this more blindly, yet like the black magician it is capable of deceiving others to further its own existence.

Apologies, but we tend to attract what we focus on ... where attention goes, energy flows. And of course, "Speak of the devil, and he appears!" In light of all this, I've got to shift gears, and quick! ;) If you need some postive imagery (as I do), try the following sketches of Devas - quite beautiful! ... (but mute your speakers, there's a glitch or something with the sound files).

In Love and Light,

taijasi
 
taijasi said:
:eek::eek: AHem! Errr, oops! My apologies! Wow - how did I make that error!? (Ironically, I considered that before I posted, and still goofed! lol) Thanks for the correction. :)

You may have been mislead due to the fact that many names of females end in "i", like Toni, whereas male counterparts end with "y", as in Tony.

However, I take my avatar name from a comic strip character of the same name, an orphan boy who followed the troops around during WWII. I never heard of it except that my uncle kept calling me Dondi when I was a boy. I've adopted the name in his memory.
 
Hi Dondi -

So you are saying that there weren't any "demons" in the conventional sense in the possessed man of Mark 5,

Not at all - there are demons, but I view Scripture as having multiple layers of meaning, and every jot therein is towards a purpose.

The fact that demons exist is 'no news' in that regard, and the fact that Jesus can expel them ditto - the function of exorcist is actually quite a lowly function in the church, although it requires a strong constitution. So I look to a meaning with currency, and that i can apply personally. What is Scripture saying to me in this text?

We have two sorts of demon -

We have the fallen angel sort, who I might call 'the real McCoy' and we have their presence in every level of creation according to the level thereof ... and we have the demons that are the accrued psychic activity in the astral realm of humanity that can 'attach' to a natural essence and pervert it, or that a 'negative' or demoniac draws to itself for sustenance.

I am inclined to think the possession in this instance is of the lesser case (but no less dangerous, in fact in many ways more so), but I am not saying it is not demoniac, rather I am saying that we can manufacture demons ... so that 100 people think a bad thing, and thus engender a thing that is 100 greater than any one individual ... except that the bad thing is not the equal to the person who thinks it, maybe it is 1% of his being, so 100 people thinking a bad thing at 1% of themselves generate a 'thing' that is equal in being to a person, even though it has no intrinsic essence of its own.

I say this because the demon shows no great intelligence or subtlety - it is a collective presence - 'legion' - and its conduct is destructive and anti-social - the real demons are most handsome and beguiling .... The temptation of Christ was far more subtle, but this was by the 'the adversary' himself.

Of course, the darkness that gathered at the moment of Christ's death upon the cross was not meteorological, nor was it God being angry, but all the forces of darkness in the world combining in one place in an attempt to overthow Jesus at His moment of greatest 'weakness' ... little did they expect Him to go down of His own volition and commence the harrying of hell ... the earthquake and the opening of graves indicate the psychic turmoil going on...

So I am not troubled by Demons - the devil knows that any show of strength will only drive me deeper into the arms of my Saviour - but the evil logismoi, those little, inconsequential, almost unnoticed, trains of thought ... dammit ... oh what damage they can wreak!

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Dondi said:

Let me ask you something of curiousity, though. what would you call those beings that were cast into the swine of pigs from the possessed man in Mark 5. Were they astral being? If so, this opens up the question of animal possession in the nefesh.

I think, if we focus too heavily on this aspect, we're looking at it in the wrong dynamic.

Remember, the Astral Light etc, is a human construct, and the way it is presented is largely cosmological. Christianity bypasses all constructs and focusses on 'the one thing necessary', so whilst we are willing to speculate on the interpretation of this text, and appraoched from a Rosicrucian, or theosophical, or anthroposophical, angle, the answer will differ, I would rather answer from a Christian perspective.

Swine get two mentions in the Gospels - there first here, and later in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. In that story man squanders his birthright, becomes the hireling of strangers and is brought so low he is put to work tending the pigs, even to contemplating eating food from the trough, before he contemplates an apologetic return to his father.

The pig is Judaism is unclean - man can hardly sink lower than the prodigal son.

The spirits that possess the man are one, but their name is legion - so here we are talking of a multitude of spirits gathered under one principle.

I think the ejection of the spirits into a herd of pigs is metaphorical - all energy returns to the source of its arising, and the pigs signify 'uncleanliness' in this instance.

The pigs hurl themselves from a cliff into the waters - now a pig does not possess the wherewithall to make an ethical decision like Fr. ?(the name escapes me) in 'The Exorcist' - to take the demon into himself, and then kill himself (this would not kill the demon anyway). Nor, it seems to me, having just bargained for a home, would the legion spirits then destroy it ...

... but suppose the waters stand for the primordial waters, the 'deep' of Genesis, the primodial soup at the start of creation, then we have the spirits sent back into, effectively, nothingness, from which they arose ... it is axiomatic of Christianity that evil has no ultimate essence - evil is marked by the absence of everything good and natural - it is a condition of privation - that there are stages, deformed essences and corrupt presences, on the way to this ultimate 'anti-state' of being, I accept, but not an ultimate...

(Remember the devil is not the opposite of God - the devil is a fallen archangel and is countered by another archangel, St Michael)

So where does this leave us with regard to legion?

The Desert Fathers spoke of 'logismoi' - certain modes of thought that have to be purified if man is going to rise in the contemplative life. Logismoi are far more dangerous than demons because they are invisible, intangible, and apparently innocent ... but anyone who practices meditation will know the temptations come not from snarling beasts from the pit, but from those inconsequential 'trains of thought', those everyday distractions, when we suddenly realised the mind has wandered from its practice of concentration.

This is the subtlety of the adversary.

+++
"Make straight the ways of the Lord"

In Patristic Tradition (as in many others) purification is of the heart, not of the mind.

Repentance is the sign of this process, as proclaimed by St. John the Baptist, Christ Himself and, of course, by all of His Apostles, because repentance is the indispensable prerequisite for one to experience the Kingdom of God.

Purification of the heart - the inner world - is the first stage of the spiritual life, through which we must pass in order to attain to salvation.

Purification of the heart is the cure of the soul's faculty, so as to function in accordance with nature and above nature - not contrary to nature. The soul has three activities: the intelligent, the appetitive and the incentive. All three faculties, when functioning normally, are directed towards God. The intellect seeks God; the desire longs for God, and the will must do everything to achieve this communion and union with God.

(St Maximus refers to the three movements of the soul, a straight line, a circle, and a spiral.)

Purification is deliverance from pleasure and pain, in other words a person's liberation from the oppression exerted by pleasure and pain. When man is cleansed, he is freed from their domination. It is the spiritual pleasures which primarily are cultivated within him; and he does not become distressed or afflicted when diverse people or problems and adversities in life cause him pain.

Purification is the cleansing of the heart from the various thoughts/logismoi existing therein. They are called logismoi because they must dwell in the reason and not within the heart. What does this mean? When a "logismos" comes and a person is not sufficiently attentive, it then becomes a desire which wants to be fulfilled, i.e. realised. This means that the logismos proceeds from the intelligent faculty of the soul to the passible faculty, that is the faculties of desire and will. Being realised and developing into a passion the logismos enters, in fact, into the heart and remains all powerful there.

The above and the following is taken from:
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b15.en.orthodox_spirituality.02.htm

The whole is well worth reading.

The Fathers say that the heart can be cleansed of logismoi through the ascetic method of the Church. And this ascetic method is inspired by divine grace.

A simple thought may enter the reason but not find its way within the heart. When all logismoi are dismissed and the heart is cleansed, only one word-prayer prevails. The Prayer of the Heart, and this is the meaning of hesychia in Orthodoxy.

The most powerful and dangerous 'demons' or logismoi are the Seven Deadly Sins - although different saints have drawn up different lists at different times.

Search logismoi in google or wherever ...

Thomas

You post reminds of Kierkegaaard's PURITY OF HEART IS TO WILL ONE THING, in which he shows that the one thing has to be God. (Otherwise, there's division in the will)
 
You post reminds of Kierkegaaard's PURITY OF HEART IS TO WILL ONE THING, in which he shows that the one thing has to be God. (Otherwise, there's division in the will)

Indeed! St Maximus talks of the 'gnomic' will - the discriminating will of man - used wrongly to discriminate between himself and God - and this was set Jesus apart, His will was one with his Father - Jesus willed nothing but what God wanted.

Poor old humanity - put them in Paradise, and say 'don't go near the water' ... where's the first place he'll go? What's the first question they'll ask?

Thomas
 
The Swine? It is all about the water. What does water do for you?
 
Thomas said:
Dondi said:

Let me ask you something of curiousity, though. what would you call those beings that were cast into the swine of pigs from the possessed man in Mark 5. Were they astral being? If so, this opens up the question of animal posession in the nefesh.

Similar conceptions were employed by the mediaeval Alchemists in their treatises related to the Great Work, and can be also found, by those who are more perceptive or aware to the esoteric teachings, in the Rosicrucian literature known as "Western Wisdom Teachings".
I think, if we focus too heavily on this aspect, we're looking at it in the wrong dynamic.

Remember, the Astral Light etc, is a human construct, and the way it is presented is largely cosmological. Christianity bypasses all constructs and focusses on 'the one thing necessary', so whilst we are willing to speculate on the interpretation of this text, and appraoched from a Rosicrucian, or theosophical, or anthroposophical, angle, the answer will differ, I would rather answer from a Christian perspective.

Thomas

Then the other thought (though literal and simple), may be just as accurate:

The representitive of the "demon" identified self as "legion" (an army of many, trained for combat). There was literally a "legion" of fallen angelic beings posessing this man's body. Jesus (being who He is), provided us an example of how easy He could defeat or exercise demons from the posessed.

As I recall there are other similar issues in the Bible where the disciples didn't do so well (in fact were soundly beaten by demon posessed people), and it was explained to them that there are some situations requiring much fasting, prayer and preperation prior to exercising such from a person.

Then again this could have a dual message (as seems to be the case in much of scripture). It could be analogous to one having too many problems within to be handled alone, or metaphorical as you point out, and it could be an literal account of historical facts of Jesus' actions. In the latter case the beings within would literally be fallen angels or "demons".

As far as your thought on astral beings being different in "theosophy" as opposed to Christian or Biblical thought:

The Bible describes people as being "in the spirit" while receiving prophecy (eg. Ezekiel 37:1, 1 Chronicles 12:18, Revelation 1:10, 4:7, 17:3, 21:10). Many biblical scholars attribute this to being in a dream-like state or trance. The terminology of the mystical model of astral projection is also found in Ecclesiastes 12:6-12:7:
"Remember [your Creator] — before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." In the Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2Cor 12:2-3, KJV), Paul of Tarsus makes a direct reference to the existence of an "out of the body" state:
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)" In the First Epistle to the Corinthians (1Cor 15:40-41, KJV) Paul introduces comparisons and metaphorical images that seem as a clear reference to the existence of different subtle bodies in the human constitution:
"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."
Similar conceptions were employed by the mediaeval Alchemists in their treatises related to the Great Work, and can be also found, by those who are more perceptive or aware to the esoteric teachings, in the Rosicrucian literature known as "Western Wisdom Teachings".

In otherwords, the thoughts on such are similar and with similar goals. The dynamics were on the same plane (pardon the pun). As far as "animal posession in the nefesh", well that depends on the use of the word "Animal", which in latin takes its root from "anima" or breath or life or soul...

v/r

Q
 
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