Mescaline, Ego Dissolution and Buddhism

Awaiting_the_fifth

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Peace to all.

I have been reading recently about the effects of the drug, mescaline. I understand that if a sufficient dose is taken the user will experience "Ego Dissolution"

This is discribed by Wikipedia as:

characterised by the perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment

I would like to know if anyone has experienced this, and would anyone equate this with the buddhist concept/goal of the non-existence of self.

I must admit, I feel an urge to experience this for myself. Perhaps I should take the long path and achieve this through perfect enlightenment, but it would be nice to get an understanding from it simply by eating a cactus.

Peace
AT5
 
namaste awaiting,

i have never done mesculine, however i have done other psycadelic drugs and a few others in my youth (which wasnt too very long ago since im only 21 now, but age is just a number, right?) and my experiences with them havent been close to what i have experienced with buddhism. however, i havent ever tried that specific drug therefore i couldnt give u a definite answer, not to mention i have yet to experience enlightenment, therefore i dont know what its like to not have the experience of the ego other than in random points in time with my meditation.

however, i doubt that it would be productive to ur meditation practice and to your practice of buddhism. my understanding is thus: buddhism is a path that one has to walk down and that path is full of many harmful things that may or may not stop u from following the path. if there were a 'quick fix' for enlightenment, then it would no longer be a path. so, to me, it seems like a bad idea. not to mention, the 5th precept is to refrain from taking intoxicants because they are foundations for slothfulness. and i can see how someone could become slothful in the practice if all they had to do was eat some cacti instead of sitting down to meditate or practicing mindfulness.

however, that is just my prespective on the matter. i used to do many drugs in my atempt to escape reality, but for me all it did was bring me to the realization that i couldnt escape it and that i might as well just go ahead and deal with things and find the path out of suffering. but, those were my experiences as well and everyones experience with mind altering substances are very different. my only suggestion would be this: if u do decide to try mesculine, be careful. its a rather wild ride and typically last for long periods of time depending on the amount and can cause wild visual hallucinations which could cause u to do harmful things b/c u cannot tell reality from a hallucination. so, just be careful.

be well in peace and thank u for the post,
jon
 
Namaste AT5,

thank you for the post.

as i often say, i am quite a poor Buddhist and my understanding of the teachings is slight.

i have experienced the dissolution of ego that can come from pyschotropic substances and have had a few moments of Satori or Breaking Through.

overall, the experience of such is somewhat the same though the means of arriving at it are different... and since that is so, the sort of interaction that a being can have is somewhat different as well.

it is not enough to have an experience of egolessness, though that is the first step. the operative idea is to be able to carry this experience throughout your current arising. in my experience, egoless states induced by psychotropic substances are not capable of being sustained outside of the continued use of the substances themselves. whereas the glimpses of Satori seem to have a more lasting quality about them which may be due to the way in which this experience arises.

that said, i would certainly encourage every being to make these decisions for themselves for it is certainly true that beings are quite varied and respond to different things in different ways. i am not all that interested in trying to make moralising statements concerening the use of psychotropic plants, that said, it isn't called the Doctrine and Discipline for nothing :)

metta,

~v
 
I have had an experience that I would certainly call 'ego dissolution' on psychedelics, but not on mescaline...in my case, it was psilocybin. At risk of repeating aspects from my post on 'Spirituality or Hallucination?', I can say with certainty that I experienced what you are asking about. At that point in my life, it was almost enough to put me into catatonic fear:eek: Some people aren't ready for that experience, at all. But, I can say with complete certainty, that my experience showed me 'no self' in a way I wasn't prepared for whatsoever.

Unfortunately, since my experience occurred before I really had looked into anything having to do with spirituality, at all, I can't say one way or the other if the experience would've been beneficial to someone well-established in spiritual development.

I will say that I agree with Vajradhara:
it is not enough to have an experience of egolessness, though that is the first step. the operative idea is to be able to carry this experience throughout your current arising.

This is not something that psychedelics can do FOR a person. Though, for me, it opened up that potential. And I, personally, don't feel that potential would've been too available to me otherwise.
 
With a high enough dose, you will experience dissolution of the personal self (the conventional ego),
but for the disenchantment of self-nature itself - this is more profound and more difficult to achieve.
 
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
I would like to know if anyone has experienced this, and would anyone equate this with the buddhist concept/goal of the non-existence of self.

I must admit, I feel an urge to experience this for myself. Perhaps I should take the long path and achieve this through perfect enlightenment, but it would be nice to get an understanding from it simply by eating a cactus.

I have experienced this on several drugs - however, it dissapears like dreams do on waking. To maintain the benefit of such dissolution, there is no subsitute for working at it. It can help, it can be quite disturbing and upsetting - it depends on your life and your mind. If you are with friends, genuinely seek self-knowledge are willing to let go of attachments at least temporarily and live at least a moderately physically and psycologically healthy life, great. If not, the problems can become amplified, and unable to remeber or understand what they are about or how to solve them when you come back, can make things worse.
 
I don't know if it is dissolution of self or gaining the knowledge that self is connected to everything.

And that self may change things that are beyond what appears to be physical boundaries.

When you can see your words and thoughts affecting the world like ripples in a pond it is a different perspective.

When you sit in a field and watch the sun go down and get stuck on a fence post and KNOW that time stopped, until you decided to move and let the sun go down....and when it was a group halucination...
 
Maybe I should curtail the Catholic-level guilt over clouding my mind with alcohol intermittently in view of what's being said. If it's good enough for some zen masters, pass the vino:p
 
Peace to all.

I have been reading recently about the effects of the drug, mescaline. I understand that if a sufficient dose is taken the user will experience "Ego Dissolution"

This is discribed by Wikipedia as:



I would like to know if anyone has experienced this, and would anyone equate this with the buddhist concept/goal of the non-existence of self.

I must admit, I feel an urge to experience this for myself. Perhaps I should take the long path and achieve this through perfect enlightenment, but it would be nice to get an understanding from it simply by eating a cactus.

Peace
AT5


Hello,

According to Andrew Weil, psychadelics are not responsible for the high experience, but rather act as what he calls "active placeboes." That is, the drug simply causes physical/chemical changes to the body, and are effectively active yet neutral towards getting high.

I've had the experience and I would say that it is similar to many Buddhist concepts like awakening, but not the concept of the non-existance of self nor of attainment for that matter. While attainment to me implies that something is attained over time, the mescaline can show a person that they already have it to begin with by simply shifting their attention to it.

In Carlos Castaneda's book on mescaline, The Teachings of Don Juan, Mescalito is the essence of the plant and is a mischievious teacher and protector. He is an external sourse, and teaches a person about their ally, which is internal. I believe personally that it is the discovery of the ally, and not the effects of the drug, which makes a person high. Discovering the ally depends on set and setting (mind set and environmental setting) which is why it is important to eliminate all potential risks. Essentially, if one can discover a positive set and setting for the psychadelic experience, they can find a positive set and setting for ordinary life as well. In the book, mescaline, as well as psilocybin and datura, are always taken in a sacred, meticuously planned manner. There is also reflection of the experience afterwards.

Also, I don't believe the word 'ego' is mentioned in the book.
 
Maybe I should curtail the Catholic-level guilt over clouding my mind with alcohol intermittently in view of what's being said. If it's good enough for some zen masters, pass the vino:p

so...

you're a Zen master Snoopy?

;)

therein lies one of the most tricky aspects of the Buddhist path, in my opinion, for beings that are not regular practicers...


that a Zen master can drink wine and so forth does not mean that everyone can drink wine and go about it.. quite the opposite, in fact.

that said... Buddhism, though oft employing the term Samyak or "perfect" in its teaching does not condemn beings that do not uphold the 5 Precepts.. of course some schools or monestaries may have implemented the Vinya in a different way.

as laypeople, however, (and i almost always speak from that point of view) it is more of an opportunity to recognize how this action can have consequences in our lives.

metta,

~v
 
I think one major distinction between alcohol and psychadelics is that alcohol helps a person temporarily escape, while psychodelics do just the opposite; if you have issues, you will be made more aware of them. Its for this reason that "enlightening discoveries" from highs from drugs like alcohol are forgotten or made distant as soon as its over.
 
...i have also experienced this ego dissolution, again, not on mescaline, but using psilocybin, and for me it was a fantastically positive event... and yet-

psychadelic drugs like these are powerful, and should be respected, their mind altering ability revered, small doses used, and used soley for one singular purpose, that being further appreciating the nature of reality and better understanding the self or uniting with the Gods.

if u manage to have such an experience urself u will probably do what most of us do- u will probably place too much emphasis on it later and allow it to become a defining moment, u might allow it to radically alter ur world view, and it will become something u cling to when, in truth, you're simply hallucinating, one day, and you get a little glimpse of something that might be like the truth we all seek but which equally might not be...

it'll only be a short trip, like using a taxi to take you to a place where normally a pilgrim would walk, barefoot, for many years, over sharp stones that cut their feet, without ever seeing a glimpse of something which you manage to stagger upon one day while using a drug, and that is generally what is considered to be the issue- not only are you taking a taxi to get there, but you probably haven't actually studied the map for yourself, and so if the taxi driver sees you're a tourist he might take a more complex route than neccessary, he might be a rubbish driver and drop you off in the wrong place, and you will never know 'til you get there.

the experience of something great and unusual isn't really what buddhism is supposed to be about. Buddhist practise involves three basic things- being ethical, practising samatha meditation and cultivating special insight. The aim of these practises is to cause the cessation of suffering. Buddhism is not about cultivating delusion, and clinging to it, but seeing through it, destroying it. If that "other" is reality, then what kind of reality is it that we can't see with our own eyes or hear with our own ears or smell with our own noses? An unreal reality? That makes no sense. An unreal reality is a delusion, a hallucination, a fantasy.

...it is relatively easy to experience the numinous, or meet with god, or become one with the earth and its creatures while tripping- it's standard stuff, really, just what happens with lsd and shrooms and mescaline and cactus buttons- and that is traditionally at least, precisely why ppl take them... there is a book called- the varieties of psychadelic experience- which asked various questions of those who had used lsd/mescaline, etc, and spiritual experiences were reported frequently...

now, if we just did some acid, and suddenly saw God, or experienced emptiness, wow man, that would be great, but we don't, we live in a world where we know about shamans, and the ritual use of psilocybin and peyote, we know of god, we know of emptiness etc, and so the simple act of knowing this primes us for an experience...

...those of us with firm faith will see God in the ways which God has been presented to us- in the above book, christians tended to see crosses and angels, catholics a sweet jesus, old testament types a wrathful creator god, while Hindu's are dancing the rasa lila with Krsna or becoming one with Brahma and buddhists are thinking they experience emptiness...

still, it's worth a go, just for the sake of it...
 
Buddhism is not about cultivating delusion, and clinging to it

And of course nothing else worthwhile is either. If you think that this is the point of taking psychadelics then you have misconceptions. I think it is unfortunate that they are shoved into a category with other drugs and seen as something to do while goofing off.
 
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