A Big Bang Question

Discussion in 'Science and the Universe' started by pseudonymous, Nov 28, 2003.

  1. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Excellent points. I think though in order for space to expand, it would have to be moving faster than relative to its surroundings. But if it was relatively stationary, just contained within its own "cocoon"...

    something to consider.

    v/r

    Q
     
  2. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    DrewJMore,

    Really loved your posts. I am assuming you concur with WHKeith on the mass of supermassive black holes so forgive me if these are stupid questions. It seems to me that gravity is missing or is gravity in your model the fabric of the loop or hyper-sphere and it thus exerts its force throughout (either side) the singularity. Do the same physics apply to both/all sides? Also do you think there is a type of Bose-Einstein Condensate effect that takes place under the huge pressures that could account for mass/gravity stability (to stop it dropping out of 'our' universe altogether) and some of the associated phenomena such as plasma jets? An what do you think about them being possible points of contact between Branes in Brane Theory ?

    Regards

    Tao
     
  3. DrewJMore

    DrewJMore Logical Demonstrator

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    Well that's a first.;)
    I can't claim to have really given my conjecture(s) any rigorous consideration, but since you have, here goes:
    To me it seems that matter has the property of impeding the flow of time, thus forming a "low" spot in spacetime. Given two spatially separate bits of matter, and their associated 'depression' in the spacetime fabric, each will tend towards each other as would two bowling-balls on a spring mattress.
    It certainly would simplify things if this was the case, but as I've been known to say, "I will be glad to perform the experiment and report my findings," by jumping into a black hole.
    You flatter me: considering my words in light of the names of so many accomplished thinkers. In reply, I would speculate that there must be a practical limit beyond which matter will no longer 'allow' its density to increase. How that may be enforced, and at what magnitude, is both a significant mathematical exercise and an expensive experiment. :D
    My M-theory understanding is quite limited, but it may be that the supreme flexibility of its equations could be employed to describe the details of reality around black holes. May I ask you to further explain the interactions you mention?

    -djm
     
  4. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    It seems to me that there are 2 important questions here that I have either failed to grasp the explanations for (probable), or have not been addressed in what I have read so far. In SM Black holes we can infer mass from their gravitational effect on stars near the galactic cores that harbour these objects. SMBH's that are not in a feeding phase emit almost no energy because, it's said, that the gravity well is simply too great to allow any to escape. I am no mathematician, hell I never even sat any exam in high school, but it seems to the pea between my ears that there is no loss of mass/gravity from the dormant objects is suggesting that there is no gateway within to another dimension. This is why I loved WHKeiths and your presentation that the 'other side' is a complete universe and that ours too is the hyper-inards of one in a yet bigger universe. This would explain the gravity/mass stability we see. And in a feeding SMBH all the turmoil we see takes place at the event horizon and has no effect on the super dense inner core hence the inner-verse remains stable and unaffected.
    The other question is the pressure deep within such objects, unless I am gravely mistaken, does not create heat but acts to supercool. (heat being a product of friction/movement which is denied at such extreme pressures. I believe this is called the Hawking temperature). It seems to me that such an effect would create a Boes-Einstien Condensate which has an uncanny similarity to the Zero Point Quantum Matrix that some theorists suggest to be the canvas on which our universe is painted. Do you see what I'm getting at? Both ideas seem to be in harmony. Further I would conjecture that such ideas intuitively to me suggest that the same laws are present in all universes but raised to a power in accord to the total mass.

    Q: Is such a single black hole/universe a hypersphere? What I see is a Mandelbrot set type infinity.

    -djm[/quote]
    Here I am not sure how to fit it into the above picture. Indeed I think if Brane theory were true we would see a loss of mass/gravity from black holes. An analogy of brane theory as I understand it goes thus:
    A tent covered in morning dew. The dew, matter, exists on the outer fly sheet but as it forms a pool on the incorrectly erected tent, it causes a gravity well that makes the fly sheet, brane, contact the inner skin, 2nd brane. At this point of contact the water, matter, can move from one brane to another.

    Hope I have made sense :p

    regards

    Tao
     
  5. DrewJMore

    DrewJMore Logical Demonstrator

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    I've read your latest post, and will have to wait a bit to compose my own reply. Very thought provoking.

    -djm
     
  6. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    ok:)
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Great stuff....isn't there one or more SMBH at the center of every galaxy? I mean since they've been looking haven't they found one??

    I'm getting some sort of diverticulitis picture in my head...

    But confused as to how the multiple black holes connect to the same universe even in the tent/fly story...
     
  8. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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  9. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Sorry for the double post but I tried to edit and it would not work.

    Yes there appears to be one at the centre of most galaxies. The exceptions seem to be the so called open or diffuse galaxies. I think the emerging theory is that they too once upon a time had an SMBH at their core but that it was consumed by a larger one during a galactic collision. There seems to be a divine ratio between the mass of a galaxy and its core SMBH. They all seem to be about 0.5% the mass of the galaxy. So it is possible during a galactic collision for 2 SMBH's to merge but the mass of stars continue onward due to the huge momentum. Having 0.5% of the mass stolen makes little difference really.
    The SMBH in our galaxy is not feeding, or it wasn't! But recent images taken on the Keck telescope on Hawaii do seem to have recorded plasma jets around the event horizon.



    I think the 2 theories to be incompatible. The second one, based on ideas surrounding branes may allow all black holes in our universe to 'touch' an adjacent brane or perhaps many branes dependent how multiversal space is folded. In the tent analogy it is like the fly sheet touches at the inner in multiple places. But as I state there should be an observable loss of mass on our side, which there is not. Additionally you would expect to see some flow this way too which we have not observed though some postulate that this was what the Big Bang was.

    In the other idea each black hole in our universe is a universe in its own right. And our universe is a single black hole in a much bigger universe that may contain as many black holes as our own. That universe in turn would be an even bigger black hole in an even bigger universe ad-infinitum. This is why I think a Mandelbrot set a good visual diagram.


    Tao
     
  10. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    here's a theory that the universe is cyclic and repeats itself endlessly

    Edge 210
     
  11. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Unfortunately it ends just where I'd like him to begin :p
     
  12. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    I dont think I have read anything in what I'm about to say so I would appreciate it if anyone can tell me if they have.

    The state of perfect entropy is that which is found in a singularity or a Boes-Einstien condensate where things are just too cold for any reactions to take place in matter and matter itself loses individual atomic identity. All atomic identity relies on heat to exist. Could it be that the expansion we see in the universe is driven by heat? The 3 degrees kelvin of heat left over from the big bang is actually the driving force of expansion and that when it cools to the billionths of a degree of a singularity expansion, or at least its acceleration, will cease?

    Tao
     
  13. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Sort of following on from that in a loose sense it may be that Black Holes are in fact Entropy Machines. That they have a 'purpose' of removing heat from the universe. Black Holes appear to go through feeding phases. But they are 'messy eaters' and some of the material they accreted from close to the galactic core is ejected from the galaxy in huge jets. Such jets, as you can see in the image attached, throw large quantities of matter into the interstellar void where it is effectively removed from the star making/heat production cycle. The velocity of ejection is sufficient that much of what a black hole consumes is pushed beyond gravitational re-capture. Estimates claim that 5% of all accreted mass is thus ejected forever from the host galaxy. Keep repeating this process and you get a significant loss.

    Again not read anything directly related to such an idea, just mere musing on ideas. If anybody has I would be most interested to read.

    Tao
     

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  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I thought black holes ejected x-rays...is the matter converted to x-rays? or is matter actually ejected?

    And if matter or x-rays is ejected how does this tie to the connection to other universes theories?
     
  15. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    No not just X-Rays are ejected. X-rays emissions are just the best way we have of detecting them. Even whole stars can be ejected in this way.
    We have performed N-body simulations of the formation of hyper-velocity stars (HVS) in the centre of the Milky Way due to inspiralling intermediate-mass black holes (IMBHs). We find that due to dynamical friction, IMBHs sink into the centre of the Galaxy where they deplete the central cusp of stars. Some of these stars become HVS and are ejected with velocities sufficiently high to escape the Galaxy.
    Ejection of Hyper-Velocity Stars by Intermediate-Mass Black Holes


    I am not sure but it could be that the supercooled state is some kind goal? In such a state everything becomes one, its a state of rest in which all information is contained. It could be that the universe is an experiment in trying to achieve perfect entropy or an very large experiment in trying to achieve 0.00000000000000000 Kelvin :p

    Tao
     
  16. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    WoW!! Seems even black holes can be ejected from galaxies.

    We study the number and interaction rates of supermassive black holes in galactic bulges as predicted by hierarchical models of galaxy formation in which the spheroidal components of galaxies are formed by mergers. In bright ellipticals, the number of events that can eject a central supermassive binary black hole is large. Central binaries must therefore merge in less than a Hubble time – otherwise there will be too much scatter in the M[​IMG]–σ* relation and too many off-centre galactic nuclei. We propose that binary black holes are able to merge during the major gas accretion events that trigger QSO activity in galaxies. If this is the case, less than 10 per cent of faint ellipticals and 40 per cent of bright ellipticals are predicted to harbour binary black holes with near equal masses at their centres. This binary may be ejected away from the centre of the galaxy or even into intergalactic space in up to 20 per cent of the most luminous ellipticals. The number of low-mass black holes that can interact with the central object is predicted to be a strong function of galaxy luminosity. In most faint ellipticals, no black holes fall into the centre of the galaxy after the last major gas accretion event, but in the most luminous ellipticals, an average of 10 low-mass black holes interact with the central supermassive object after this time. It is expected that stars will be ejected from galaxy cores as these low mass ratio binaries harden. Multiple black holes in galactic bulges thus provide a natural explanation for the strong systematic trends in the observed central density profiles of ellipticals as a function of luminosity.
    Martin G. Haehnelt, Guinevere Kauffmann (2002)
    Multiple supermassive black holes in galactic bulges
    Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 336 (3), L61–L64.

    So our galaxy could be headed for a wandering supermassive black hole and we would never know it.

    Tao
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Now we see blackholes by not seeing what is beyond do we not...and light being warped?? So we'd know if we were heading toward one or one toward us, yes?

    But in my mind I now have picture of a smbh sucking in another smbh and the former being ejected by the latter but as it travels in and then boomerangs out it gathers some material with it hence becoming the larger gravitionally smbh... It travels a distance away and then like on a giant rubber band the inititial hungry smbh gets caught up in the pull of the ejected and gets swallowed up only to get ejected and as well gather some back and this eternal infernal invisible perpetual motion yo-yo match ensues across the universe...each spewing off x-rays as they gobble galaxies and alternately each other...

    (I just quit meandering through my office whilst pretending my fists are carnivorous smbh's and the folks around me are galaxies running scared...despite the fact that they avoided me...I percieved them as being swallowed up as x-rays spewed out between my curled little finger and/or thumb....they started talking...so I just sat in the conference room and turned my smbh fists into my little floating Bhudda....life is good)
     
  18. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    No. Well not until it was sucking us in anyway. The SMBH in our galaxy only has a radius 8x that of our sun, but a mass about a billion times as great. If something that size approached us it would remain point sized till well within our solar system,by which time we would certainly be noticing the disappearance of the outer planets. In addition to that black holes cause a powerful gravitational lensing effect so that you would not see a black space/void but the light of the stars behind it bent round it by its gravity field.



    Lmao, just tell em its a new 'assertive yoga' technique ;)
     

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