Excerpt from "The Pride of Nations"

juantoo3

....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
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Excerpt from "The Pride of Nations"

In order to keep from derailing the other thread, I pulled a couple of thoughts from there here.

And you see ... some of us aren't willing to put down the pipe. No matter who shows up to share it.
This is evading the subject. No matter how much sugar coating one puts on a pile of anarchy, it is still anarchy.

(Please avoid the obvious snide remarks ... which I sniff coming a MILE away. Just because a door is left open, doesn't mean you have to walk through it. NATIVE AMERICAN ... PEACE PIPE ... nuff said. OR, look up the band Arco Iris, if you really feel like expanding your horizons, naturally.)
What snide remarks? I had thought myself most sociable lately, no less because I have been scarce. Frankly, I had not even entertained the idea of being snide in response. Could it be that you are seeing in me what you find distasteful about yourself? It would help immensely if you didn't pre-judge.

"I hope some day you'll JOIN us ... and the world will live as ONE."
Join "us" to dance sky-clad in manicured forests without a care in the world? Oh, what a wonderful dream…

And then reality sets in…who will manicure the forests? They will not manicure themselves, and I'm not too crazy about getting poison ivy all over my naked body, thanks. And who will take care of "us" who haven't a care, when the inevitable natural calamity occurs?

when the animal is tranformed ... to the point where his gift to us, the form, is governed by level-headed Reason (the human part), and something altogether higher - or trans-Human - is put in charge.
OK, I am really wanting to understand, and what I see is a glaring contradiction. You want "us" to be carefree, defined as not having a care. Yet, "level-headed reason (the human part)" demands caring, and caring demands responsibility. There is a chain that follows; government in the purest philosophical sense is the way a band of humans provide responsible caring to and for their fellow humans. This is what John Locke was alluding to. One cannot be carefree and caring simultaneously, the two are mutually exclusive. One cannot "not do" by "doing."

This can be true of an entire populace, and has been. Again it shall be in the future.
It is no surprise I do not share this assessment. I have found no archeological evidence to support this position, only vague mythological hearsay.

But right now (and until then), I will happily join you - and others - in celebrating the progress that all Nations have made, toward International Cooperation, and true Unity. Each has a part to play, a gift to share.
Ah, the eggshell dance. While I want to agree with the words, I also know that some of what is said here is code for "unity under 'our' brand of dominion." It is dominion under this brand that I most disagree with as it calls specifically for the neutering of my G!d-given path, along with the neutering of the G!d-given paths of millions of others.

As some might say, with a wry smile (at best), it takes all sorts. It does. Indeed.
Agreed. Yet, must I "agree" with *all* sorts? Note, I did not say "tolerate;" by all means, live and let live, provided "they" allow me the same courtesy. Agreement, on the other hand, is not possible without surrender. Will you surrender to *me*? If not, then why should I surrender to *you*?

It is the imperialist nature of those that rise to power that gets us all in trouble. I don't believe there is a mother that would prefer to send her son to kill another mother's son. Every mother wants a roof over her childrens heads, a dry warm bed, and food in their bellies...
With all due respect, isn't this implying one "knows" what *all* others are thinking? While I agree with the sentiment here in this day and age and place, my studies tell me that this sentiment is not always so. There have been and are cultures that place great value on their warriors. And it is the mothers that promulgate this value. Warriors are there for protection and for sustenance. Successful warriors mean successful hunters, and successful hunters mean the tribe continues to thrive. One need only point to Troy, Bodicea (British Celt), and Native Americans as examples, although the premise I laid out is pervasive around the world.

Point being, it is not accurate to presume that every mother in every culture at every time ever did not place the virtues of being a warrior/ hunter/ provider into her son's mental and moral repertoire. Belief notwithstanding.

We've given up our power, allowed our Gov't to usurp it, 'for our own good'. What ever happen to the King or the Prince leading the charge down the mountain? If we decided our leaders had to lead the charge, if their sons had to be in the front lines...me thinks we'd have a lot less disputes in this world.
I general I agree. I think with things like the Patriot Act that we as citizens have been asked to surrender a great deal on the tenuous assurance of security. A wartime stance does things like that, the problem in our situation (the U.S.) is that once things are surrendered by whatever pretext, it is darn near impossible to get those liberties back. Which is why I am opposed to PA2, and I think PA1 should not have been allowed to renew. But in a more philosophical sense, for our own good we must give into a government of one sort of other, pool our resources as it were. We, collectively, can achieve so much more than a whole bunch of little "I's" running around trying to get their "fair share." Inevitably, toes will be stepped on and feelings will get hurt, and vendettas will get waged and vengeance will become the rule of the day. In short, anarchy. I still have yet to hear a viable argument in favor of anarchy, or an argument that isn't based on fantasy and wishful thinking.

One may not particularly like what a specific government is doing, but it is really hard to justify being philosophically against *all* forms of government with any reasonable degree of rationality. Certainly not if one considers the reality of the human condition, historically and presently. And what the alternative truly entails.
 
Namaste 123 and good call on moving but you've confused the piss outta me.

I thought these were others...then down the line some of them were my quotes...so I'll respond to me.

Tis quite simple actually and maybe you will disagree.

In the extreme in my utopia the forests are self pruned....fire can do it (G-d) or those that gravitate to that love of nature can do it, or we attune ourcellves to our ability to see the forest as pruned and maintained and it is...but that is another story. (you know, the whole mustard seed one...)

But at a minimum, my utopia has to do with education, and realizing the abundant nature of the universe. Bill Gates after all created 27 billion out of thin air...we didn't concieve of what he did. Folks today are waking up and checking their mailboxes for click thru money...who'da thunk it? Just cause one creates wealth does not translate into others not receiving as the universe is eternally abundant...the world is our oyster as it were.

Peace can prevail....especially if we spend 300 billion a year creating it. If money went into education, and food, and industry, the output on the other end would be profits to the world and not depleted uranium and landmine fields. The true cost of war is in Arlington and the VA hospitals and it doesn't have to be so.

These are my thoughts...I swear if we taught religous tolerance, and the golden rule....if we sent assistance and not bombs...
 
Kindest Regards, Wil!
wil said:
Namaste 123 and good call on moving but you've confused the piss outta me.
Sorry about that, it wasn't intentional.

I thought these were others...then down the line some of them were my quotes...so I'll respond to me.
Perhaps I should have mentioned the quotes were pulled from your comments and those of Taijasi.

In the extreme in my utopia the forests are self pruned....fire can do it (G-d) or those that gravitate to that love of nature can do it, or we attune ourcellves to our ability to see the forest as pruned and maintained and it is...but that is another story. (you know, the whole mustard seed one...)
I see conceptually stuff I read in one of Richard Bach's books, "Illusions, adventures of a reluctant messiah." While I enjoyed it, and wish it were or could be so, I find this way beyond my reach. And I have reached, many times over many years. Allowing that such as you describe is possible, it is not commonplace for everyday peoples. In short, there's a loooooooong way to go before humanity ever reached this level. So somebody still must be responsible. Are there to be those who must be responsible so the rest can be irresponsible? Would there not develop jealousies and ill-will?

But at a minimum, my utopia has to do with education, and realizing the abundant nature of the universe. Bill Gates after all created 27 billion out of thin air...we didn't concieve of what he did.
Bill Gates as messiah?...hmmm. Let me see if we're talking about the same Bill Gates? The one who runs microsoft? The one who basically quelled any competition through merger, buyout and generalized bullying? The same Bill Gates who was brought before the government for breaking monopoly laws, and cut a deal to minimize the adverse publicity? The same Bill Gates whose ruthless business dealings were the admiration of every Wall Street business tycoon who is held in contempt by the liberal establishment? The same Bill Gates, former pariah, now is a messiah because he donated some money?

Hmmm, by the exact same reasoning, John D. Rockefeller is a messiah. So is steel magnate Andrew Carnegie. So is virtually every philanthropic millionaire, which is pretty much all of them above a certain point. Gee, liberals bemoan the excesses of the wealthy as the cause of the evils of the world, yet Bill Gates, the same Bill Gates who is the wealthiest man in the world (therefore, by liberal definition, the most guilty of excess and evil), is somehow literally overnight a messiah to be emulated??? Boy, am I confused...

Folks today are waking up and checking their mailboxes for click thru money...who'da thunk it?
Not saying this isn't so, but every one of these scams I have looked into has been a lie and a falsehood.

Just cause one creates wealth does not translate into others not receiving as the universe is eternally abundant...the world is our oyster as it were.
I think I can pretty well guarantee Bill Gates is more of the Ayn Rand school of philosophy than whatever this is. There is no cause and effect connection. I see no correlation whatsoever. I mean this in the most respectful manner, this is fantasy and wishful thinking.

Peace can prevail....especially if we spend 300 billion a year creating it.
I have no problem with desiring or working towards peace. But to imply that a ruthless business tycoon is somehow a saint because he donates a little money is just not realistic.

If money went into education, and food, and industry, the output on the other end would be profits to the world and not depleted uranium and landmine fields. The true cost of war is in Arlington and the VA hospitals and it doesn't have to be so.
Just as there are those who point to Sweden as an example of how to run a country. Virtually no military expense, all towards "education, and food, and industry," and they are doing fairly well in the world economy as a result. Of course, they managed to avoid the destruction of WWII, and so had a huge jumpstart on the rest of the continent in rebuilding their business enterprises after the war. They also have a relatively small population.

Thank goodness we did not have to rely on Sweden holding the line against the German onslaught in WWII. Apples and Oranges. There is little to no comparison with the US, and frankly I am at a loss to think of any time Sweden made a significant contribution in any major world-wide calamity, be it famine or earthquake or whatever.

I have a really good clue about what comes through the VA hospitals. An intimate clue in fact. It hurts me when these men and women are disrespected outside of the hospital by well meaning but disingenuous people who have no clue what self-sacrifice for others *truly* means. Despite their (the disingenuous') pleas to the contrary.

I swear if we taught religous tolerance, and the golden rule....if we sent assistance and not bombs...
They are good thoughts, well meaning, and would go a long way, *if* the world and the humans in it, were of a type to fully appreciate it. In the meantime, we have to find ways of dealing with humanity as humanity actually is, rather than wishing and hoping for a day that may not get here in time, before we destroy ourselves in the process.
 
juantoo3 said:
And you see ... some of us aren't willing to put down the pipe. No matter who shows up to share it.
You invoked the concept anarchy here, juantoo3, not me.

juantoo3 said:
What snide remarks?
The ones that anyone might make, when mention is made of sharing peace pipes. As for being sociable, kudos to you! Good work. Keep it up! :)

juantoo3 said:
Join "us" to dance sky-clad in manicured forests without a care in the world? Oh, what a wonderful dream…
No snide remarks, eh? Juantoo3, isn't it funny how they called Kerry a "flip-flopper?" :rolleyes:

And the biggest irony is, that a "care in the world" (and more to the point, FOR the world), is precisely what I'm talking about here. Or is the wholesale destruction, deforestation, devastation through bombing other countries back into the Stonge Age ... your idea of "caring in/for the world?" Excuse me, get out of the house, son. I need your back yard. I have an oil well to prop up back there. And ya see, that's a BIT more important ... than you, your family, your well-being, or any of that dancing around in nature skyclad crap. Okay??? :mad:

Get it straight. This Earth was GIVEN to me by God, to DO WITH as I please, HOW I please, and indeed, TO WHOM I please ... IF it so profits me, Uncle Cheney, and all my billionaire buddies (you know, Dad, Rummie, all the other fellas in the cohort).

Yes indeed, juantoo3, THIS is the kind of lovely, balanced, bipartisan, "best-we've-got" governement that I know I sure voted into office, and THANK GOD every day that I am soooo privileged to be BLESSED with.

ummm, NOT!!!

You should listen to Keith Oberlmann for a little break. Don't like what I have to say? Fine. Take it up with Keith. He speaks more eloquently, and poignantly, than I ever shall. WMV ... Quicktime

juantoo3 said:
when the inevitable natural calamity occurs
Ya know what? I'll take my chances with these natural calamities ANY day. Because even in a situation like Katrina, I think we'll see that it brings out the BEST in human nature, which is a whole lot better - as we've seen - than the best that BIG BROTHER has to offer us. :p

juantoo3 said:
You want "us" to be carefree, defined as not having a care.
Dare I risk asking where you pulled this from? Juantoo3, I know where you got it from. Your own head. Your own mouth/words. I never said this. Go back. LOOK.

I will not dialogue with you (or anyone) who insists on fabricating or misinterpreting what I've said. You ASSUMED, and in this case, I consider it a disservice.

John Lennon speaks of living MINDFULLY, and in a state beyond barriers, beyond borders of all sorts. If you'd like me to help - or try to help - you to understand, or at least, understand what I think this means, then I would be more than happy! :)

Quite pleased, actually, as I am both an Idealist at heart, and increasingly pragmatic and down-to-earth these days about how to accomplish such "pipe dreams."

But what you're doing, is putting words in my mouth, making assumptions, and essentially straw-manning everything I've said. I don't appreciate it. But it's also not my job to rescue you from the world you want to live in. Argue for your limitations ... and sure enough, they're yours. :eek:

juantoo3 said:
One cannot be carefree and caring simultaneously, the two are mutually exclusive. One cannot "not do" by "doing."
Here, you've stated an opinion, clearly enough. And you're appealing to a certain, rather clearcut, logic. But I'm going to ask, have you never heard of Zen? Does that whole "way of thinking," after all the years at CR, mean nothing? I guess so. Because apparent duality, and contradiction, is often JUST what Zen is about. Of course you can be carefree and caring simultaneously. One MUST. And of course you can do by not doing, and vice versa. How ELSE??? :p

My apologies, if the dead-letter, "I can't understand you unless you say EXACTLY what you mean" type approach applies here. If you insist that I try to explain Zen philosophy to you, you've missed the point already. Try the Buddhist forum. They can do a much better job.

Oh, and if you are familiar, then why are insisting that things are nicely and neatly sliced? Doing/not doing, caring/carefree? But then, you did bring up these words and concepts to begin with, didn't you? (Yes, actually.)

Okay. Sorry then. You're entitled to make of your own ideas exactly what you'd like to. :p Arent you now.

This can be true of an entire populace, and has been. Again it shall be in the future.
juantoo3 said:
It is no surprise I do not share this assessment. I have found no archeological evidence to support this position, only vague mythological hearsay.
If the Lost Continent of Atlantis were to literally rise from the deep, such that the entire Atlantic Ocean were displaced, the rest of the world flooded, and ONLY Atlantis remained, there would still be those who - violently protesting as they were themselves submerged beneath the waves - insisted on gurgling out with their last remaining breath:
"That's not Atlantis, that's .... that's ... glub glub glub ... only an iceberg."
Or some such. And I fully expect the same kind of obstinacy, protest, and skepticism, be it 200 years from now, 2,000, or 20,000 ... from these same folks, when a United Nations FINALLY prevails upon this planet. We'll all be here for that, although soon enough, the holdouts are going to be a mighty small minority.

Meanwhile, or until then, it may only be 10% or so who can recognize the resurfacing of Atlantis (both literally, and much more so figuratively, or esoterically) ... as well as pretty much this same 10% who can see that the ONLY hope we have for a sustainable WORLD future is precisely such a concept and realization as the United Nations. Sadly, most of the current US political administration is not among that 10%. Nor, it would seem, are those who keep insisting, "show me, show me, show me" ... and who object to the very PRINCIPLE of "pie-in-the-sky idealism," as I suppose you would call it.

Rail on, my friend, rail on. Perhaps you'll knock that pie down, before it's all over. Don't let ME stop you! :p

Don't let our illustrious leader get in the way, either, man. He's out to MAKE THE PIE HIGHER!!! :eek:

Can't have that, now, can we?

Ah, the eggshell dance. While I want to agree with the words, I also know that some of what is said here is code for "unity under 'our' brand of dominion." It is dominion under this brand that I most disagree with as it calls specifically for the neutering of my G!d-given path, along with the neutering of the G!d-given paths of millions of others.
awwww, are we putting words into someone else's mouth again here? why, that's got to be at least as annoying as sarcasm, don't you think juantoo3? :rolleyes:

I guess when the man said, "Can't we all just get along?" ... he was either forgetting - or else making his level best effort to overlook - the kind of mentality that responds, "NO." :(

(And which will ALWAYS chime in with "my way, or the highway" - no matter WHAT the situation, circumstances, or opportunities to come together in a spirit of cooperation. Nope, our GOD-GIVEN RIGHT to stomp our feet, and protest ANYTHING ... is certainly a part of living in this wonderful country. But of course, sooner or later, BEING right gives way to being IN the right - and between those two, there can be a world of difference. Just one world though. ONE.)

juantoo3 said:
Will you surrender to *me*? If not, then why should I surrender to *you*?
Fight your own internal battles on the public forum. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll deal with mine off stage. You can choose otherwise, but don't yank me into it. I decline the offer. NO THANKS.

It's not that I have no interest in dialogue. But when it's one-sided, one-directional, or destined to simply gravitate around false-dichotomies and insistent dualities ... I'm afraid I have to abandon ship.

This is true in my OWN life (as I'm choosing, at every juncture), and it's DAMN sure true when I see that kind of stuff in my face on a forum.

I think there's a great thread about this elsewhere. It's about the Rush to be Right. Maybe I'll see you there. Or elsewhere. But not here.

I've said my peace/piece - and it is the former. I've made a point or two, which remain unphazed, and I fail to see how the words you've put in my mouth change my points, or really even counter them, in any way ... since the argument is flawed from the very start.

This is going nowhere, but it will arrive there much quicker with each subsequent post. I'll speed up the process.

Juantoo3, we've arrived at NOWHERE. Glad to join you for the ride. Or not, as the case may be, or as you may be wont to insist. Or you can nix any of that, or all of that, if you would prefer. Or not, of course, Or even the impossible 3rd, 4th, and 5th choice.

Frankly, I really don't care. There are certain games in life, that you can only win, by not playing at all. ;) And arguments, which you CANNOT win, since no matter WHAT you say, you'll continue to meet with an argument.

The only way to win, is to stop playing altogether.

Something I learned in a movie called War Games, and in a game called tic tac toe.

Meanwhile, I'm going to play some solitaire. Now there's a game, which I know I CAN win. At least occasionally. :eek:

Namaskar,

andrew
 
a. in no way am I saying Gates is any kind of messiah...or Carnegie, or Rockefeller.... and the billions that they've tossed back to assist is extremely valuable.

b. the more people that contemplate peace, raising consciousness, the sooner its time will come. If one does not have peace within...it cannot happen without.

c. just because something is impossible doesn't mean it won't happen.
 
wil said:
a. in no way am I saying Gates is any kind of messiah...or Carnegie, or Rockefeller.... and the billions that they've tossed back to assist is extremely valuable.
Gee, wil, I didn't realize you'd said that. Although, actually, I'm quite fond of ALL the work that these great men have done. They are heroes, to me, and when I SEE Rummie, Uncle Cheney, and all the rest of Bush and Co. following suit, I might even change my opinion of THEM. :rolleyes: Yeah right.

In the very LEAST, it would take those cronies actually getting off their arse, and DOING something with their money, which IS what we see Bill and Linda (?, or is that McCartney) Gates doing. Isn't Gates hooked up with Bono somewhere in there? Or maybe that was a forum I saw them at together. Anyway, I don't question Bill's business practices. I'm not fond of them, no matter what he does charity-wise.

But standing alone, what he has done charity-wise, is - well - quite amazing. And best of all, he and his wife ARE DOING this, what, fulltime now? I dunno, I think this man has sided with the 10%. Or is swiftly headed that way.:)

Again, when I see the cronies and crooks that now fight, tooth, claw & nail to hang onto this nation's - uhhh, vitals - with their death grip ... actually DOING something selfless, noble or worthwhile ... ah yes, THEN I may lift an eyebrow, and even once again regard them as fellow HUMAN beings.

Sorry, wil, it's about my #1 struggle. Sure I know, and that's why I defer all actual regard for them to my more experienced practitioners of Goodwill, and Brotherly Love. For I tell you, when it comes to these oil barons (both here, and overseas), they can do - what for me, requires mustering ALL the strength, of my reserves. I.E., love and forgive them. :eek:

It's like, Mother Earth could not scream any louder in agony, and her people could not suffer with any greater anguish, to get through to these magnates. And since they refuse to listen, the catastrophes of Armageddon will simply continue to snowball. :(

Like Master M. says, let's hope the Ark this time ... is a bit larger than Noah's. :eek:

wil said:
b. the more people that contemplate peace, raising consciousness, the sooner its time will come. If one does not have peace within...it cannot happen without.
Elementary, no? But then, we could argue this point, and FIGHT to accept the obvious. Obstinate, that is, just plain obstinate. Depressing, too, I might add. I fail to see the point ... I truly do. Sorry. :confused:

Perhaps it's time some of us looked up HUNDREDTH MONKEY. I know I will. Just to make sure I'm on the right track. Anyone, anyone, anyone ... ?

(12 Monkeys is neat too, even dealing with major catastrophes, and the potential-to-change, as it does. Different notion, though.)

wil said:
c. just because something is impossible doesn't mean it won't happen.
Hear, Hear!!! :D

Namaskar,

andrew
 
Testy today, taijasi?
taijasi said:
You invoked the concept anarchy here, juantoo3, not me.
You are quite right, I called it what it is. What do you call "no government?"

No snide remarks, eh?
Yes. No snide remarks. Seems you do not care for my sincere symbolism, hit a nerve perhaps? Why else accuse me so early and often?

I'll take my chances with these natural calamities ANY day. Because even in a situation like Katrina, I think we'll see that it brings out the BEST in human nature, which is a whole lot better - as we've seen - than the best that BIG BROTHER has to offer us.
I never denied that calamity brings out the best in people. What I have tried to say is that it is insufficient of itself. Coexisting with this "BEST" in human nature was also an awful lot of looting, pillaging, robbing, murder and mayhem. Unless one also views these among the BEST attributes of humans as well.

You want "us" to be carefree, defined as not having a care.-jt3
Dare I risk asking where you pulled this from? Juantoo3, I know where you got it from. Your own head. Your own mouth/words. I never said this. Go back. LOOK.
You are quite correct, you did not say it. Lennon's song, and the general liberal sentiment that follows, implies this. Why the problem with me calling things what they are? Ah, a misunderstanding over the use of the collective "you?" Forgive me, I forgot to put quotation marks.

That's right, liberals are allowed to speak their minds, but conservatives are not, forgive me, may I receive a thousand tongue lashes...:(

But what you're doing, is putting words in my mouth, making assumptions, and essentially straw-manning everything I've said. I don't appreciate it. But it's also not my job to rescue you from the world you want to live in. Argue for your limitations ... and sure enough, they're yours.
No. What I am doing is borrowing the liberal mantra and exposing it via thought pictures, apparently in a way that draws your particular ire. Why? Because I expose the soft white underbelly of truth??? The "straw-manning" is yours, I just expose it. My limitations are mine, but at least I live in reality.

Here, you've stated an opinion, clearly enough.
And, clearly enough, I'm being castigated for doing so.

You're entitled to make of your own ideas exactly what you'd like to. :p Arent you now.
Aren't you??? :p

Oh, that's right, you're allowed to, I am not...???

the very PRINCIPLE of "pie-in-the-sky idealism," as I suppose you would call it.
Naw, that's not what I'd call it. I can think of a whole lot of things to call it, idealism isn't anywhere on the list.

(And which will ALWAYS chime in with "my way, or the highway"
So, just what is it you would call this you are doing to me??? Seems to me you are accusing me of what you are doing...no? Are we once again seeing something in me you do not care for in yourself???

Will you surrender to *me*? If not, then why should I surrender to *you*?-jt3
Fight your own internal battles on the public forum. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll deal with mine off stage. You can choose otherwise, but don't yank me into it. I decline the offer. NO THANKS.
Didn't think so. "The coward dies a thousand deaths, the valiant dies but once" -Kipling

It's not that I have no interest in dialogue. But when it's one-sided, one-directional, or destined to simply gravitate around false-dichotomies and insistent dualities ... I'm afraid I have to abandon ship.
Nah, you have no interest in dialogue that disagrees with you logically. If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullhockey. Trouble is, I'm not dazzled or baffled easily, and that threatens you, and has since you got here.

This is true in my OWN life (as I'm choosing, at every juncture), and it's DAMN sure true when I see that kind of stuff in my face on a forum.
Ah, logically disagreeing with your comments is "in your face?" I'm sorry, I never knew. Forgive me, massah, a thousand more lashes please.

I've made a point or two, which remain unphazed, and I fail to see how the words you've put in my mouth change my points, or really even counter them, in any way ... since the argument is flawed from the very start.
You began with ad hominem attack and have only added fallacy upon fallacy in attempt to evade the issues. You have made no points. All you have done is belittled me personally and avoided the issues. One can hardly call that rational, logical, or even fundamentally proper debate technique. It has been emotional appeal, raw and simple. Don't know why I expected better.

There are certain games in life, that you can only win, by not playing at all. ;)
I agree with you here. No sense trying to hold an intelligent discussion with an irrational person...
 
to confuse everyone I am a card carrying Republican...gave up my Dem card near 30 years ago. I'm a conservative, believing in conservation. I don't believe in either party as extremely valuable to our nation at this time. I think they are more divisive than worthwhile.

I don't vote by party or by what a labor union tells me or by what some political ad says. I don't vote against anyone, In the past 15-20 years I've been more likely to vote third party.

I suppose you two getting excited and going tit for tat is evidence that we can't get along in this world. To me it is just evidence that we've got some wounds to heal.

Seek first to understand....valuable stuff that Covey

As far as Gates or any of them go...we are often willing to pontificate...are we really willing and ready to cast the first stone? I can tell you right now, I have way to many skeletons in my closet to second guess anyone.

And while I don't grasp the whole picture...G-d doesn't make mistakes...Bill's life lead him to this point...and it will be extremely valuable as he follows through...much like Rockefeller's, and Carnegie's. Bush, Cheney, Gore, and all the rest of the purported oil tycoons. They provide fuel for the jets I fly in, the cars I drive, the semi's that bring food to my door, and I thank them for that. Their gross revenues have continued to provide for exploration to keep us moving...and when the oil runs out they'll probably have a corner on the next market..if not them, who?

Gotta bless those that provide, and while I don't agree with all that has transpired...G-d doesn't make mistakes...and I pray for their G-d decisions in the future. (and believe that those that constantly berate and belittle are vocalizing prayers, sending thoughts into the ethers, and the universe generously provides what they ask for:eek:):eek:
 
juantoo3 said:
You are quite right, I called it what it is. What do you call "no government?"
There is a difference between anarchy, and transcendence. You'll need to take up the finer points with ol' TJ - Thomas Jefferson. I believe he clarified it quite well.

At best, I could only point out that anarchy actually means no-ruler. In terms of a King Georgey, or clothing-less Emperor, I'm all for that. As far as true chaos, I do not support that. I do NOT thing disorder and insanity are what we're after. Neither did John Lennon. I would humbly suggest, that perhaps you've misinterpreted the song. And the vision, the "pipe dream," as you've put it. The ideal ...

juantoo3 said:
Coexisting with this "BEST" in human nature was also an awful lot of looting, pillaging, robbing, murder and mayhem. Unless one also views these among the BEST attributes of humans as well.
Hey now, let's not forget that once our rulers learned what was going on through the official news channel of the fatherland, THEY DID, eventually, make some attempt to respond. Come on now, let's give credit where credit's due! :rolleyes:

As for the carefree and "without a care" bit, I think you better just forget John Lennon. Stick to Supertramp. I will happily remain your liberal, fanatical, criminal. :D

juantoo3 said:
That's right, liberals are allowed to speak their minds, but conservatives are not,
^^^ See above ^^^

juantoo3 said:
No. What I am doing is borrowing the liberal mantra and exposing it via thought pictures, apparently in a way that draws your particular ire. Why? Because I expose the soft white underbelly of truth??? The "straw-manning" is yours, I just expose it. My limitations are mine, but at least I live in reality.
I think I'll decide who does, and doesn't, "draw my ire," thank you. ;):p

You lose ... :D

juantoo3 said:
And, clearly enough, I'm being castigated for doing so.
I'm just taking you to task for the way you play the game, that's all, juantoo3. As long as there's a level playing field, I'll PLAY BALL.

Just don't expect me to swing at every wild pitch that comes my way.

juantoo3 said:
Forgive me, massah, a thousand more lashes please.
There was actually nothing else in the rest of your post worth responding to, and this is no exception. But I think it needs highlighting. It strikes a chord with me, dissonant not because of the sarcasm present (your post is nothing but sarcasm, and one big COME-ON) ... but because of something else. It is offensive, patently so, and to the Spirit of Humanity. And it is indignifying to your overall character, I assure you.

There are certain things we have in common, and some we most certainly do not. If you wish to appeal to my basest nature, then I challenge you to also meet me on the high ground. It is that place, within, from which I can say `Namaskar' and mean it. The kind-spirited person can recognize the same, kindred spirit, in everyone he meets. As neosnoia recently reminded us, in Gandhi's words:
“If you do not see God in the next person you see, you need look no further.”
I can see the God in you, juantoo3. I can see it, feel it, know it, and Salute It (Him, Her, etc.). And I do.

Will you do likewise? Will you reciprocate?

I will also meet you in the middle. I'll meet you halfway. In this respect, we are neither perfect, and always right, nor perfectly corrupt, or always wrong. There's a great deal of difference between these extremes, and while I do think we inhabit all three spheres, I can only extend a palm branch to you if I overlook a few things (both in my own nature, and in yours). Any one of these things, can remain a barrier, if I so choose. Pride, I have found ... is certainly one of them.

And of course, what's true for the goose ...

Call me a silly goose if you like, it's up to you ... to be the gander.:p;)

So, dribble, pass, or go in for a slam dunk - all you, man, all you. :)

Namaskara,

andrew
 
Wil, you may never know how much I agree with your most recent comments here. And I gave up my Rep card a year or so ago to be No Party Affiliation. Was only Rep because Florida has closed primaries.

Yeah, I believe G!d works in mysterious ways, ways I do not understand, and have stopped trying to forcast. If it is meant for me to know, I have faith and confidence it will be made known. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter.

But then, a lot of us have preordinate ideas about what people are or should be. So we think. And often we find we are mistaken, grossly mistaken.

Yes, sometimes I use generalizations for the sake of discussion; but if one looks at what I have written, there is no accusation (unless in direct response to accusation, and even then I tried to limit such). If I came across accusatory in the initial response, it was not intentional, and I apologize. I hardly think that bears the tone I received in reply.
 
You guys forgot Warren Buffet. What he has done, to give virtually his entire fortune to The Gates Foundation to manage on his behalf, is a stupendous statement about how those who are favored should share their winnings with the least favored among us all.

IMHO, "the good people" are starting to make some progress and headway in the messes we've inadvertantly and advertantly created over the past few hundred years. Someone needs to start working on Kirk Kerkorian, Sumner Redstone, T.Boone Pickens, etc. Oprah is in a class all of her own.

BTW, as I recollect, Bill Gates wasn't that giving a person until he and Melinda started to get it on. See what love can do ?

flow....;)
 
wil said:
to confuse everyone I am a card carrying Republican...
lol, stranger things have happened :p;):)

wil said:
And while I don't grasp the whole picture...G-d doesn't make mistakes...Bill's life lead him to this point...and it will be extremely valuable as he follows through...much like Rockefeller's, and Carnegie's. Bush, Cheney, Gore, and all the rest of the purported oil tycoons. They provide fuel for the jets I fly in, the cars I drive, the semi's that bring food to my door, and I thank them for that. Their gross revenues have continued to provide for exploration to keep us moving...and when the oil runs out they'll probably have a corner on the next market..if not them, who?

Gotta bless those that provide, and while I don't agree with all that has transpired...G-d doesn't make mistakes...and I pray for their G-d decisions in the future. (and believe that those that constantly berate and belittle are vocalizing prayers, sending thoughts into the ethers, and the universe generously provides what they ask for:eek:):eek:
Mmmm, I'm on a slightly different page from you in this case, wil. I understand, but I think Humanity holds the key, at this point, to world peace ... not God. Deity has not only extended the olive branch, but has "called in reinforcements," so to speak (figuratively, and literally). Esotericism speaks much, about the current opportunity before Humanity. Much hangs in the balance, and even with Christ's Return, I believe that WE hold the deciding cards.

Sadly, although this is a cardgame that we could relatively easily win, it's one that we will NOT come out from unscathed. It's already too late for that. Calamity and disaster already condtion the world at present, and day by day we decide just how ugly things will get, and just how much unnecessary suffering we will allow to go unrelieved. I may not be emptying my pockets in response to the Christian Children's Fund, but the rallying effort of these - and all such charities - is only the tip of the iceberg. But to borrow again from what I mentioned to juantoo3, I see Atlantis as rising, in that respect.

It is the New Atlantis, as Master R. wrote ... in his incarnation as Sir Francis Bacon. America is the `Great Experiment.' Hierarchy backs it, and we might even say that Shamballa itself has a stake in seeing us through these difficult times. Our well-being, has a GREAT deal to with the rest of the world's well-being. Unquestionably.

But WE HOLD THE CARDS. Not God. Not Jesus. Not even Christ. Not the Lodge of Masters. Not even the Initiates and Disciples of the world ... which, as an esotericist, I might like to believe were the case. :eek:

Ultimately, I think it comes down to HUMANITY, and especially to people of GOODWILL, to decide our future. Those who are truly in charge, from Hierarchy on down the chain, are doing all that can be done to sway the world ... to bring about the changes that must occur. But FREE WILL has always been the name of this game, and until Humanity FREELY accepts the olive branch being offered by the Father (Shamballa), and decides to put away the childish things ... our national leaders, however well intentioned, will continue to "act as big girls," as George Harrison put it. Or as juvenile boys, each claiming, "mine's bigger, mine blows up more people, mine can obliterate entire continents," and so on.

This is not God's will. This is not God's Purpose. This is stubbornness, and ignorance. This is childishness. This is INSANITY. And it may just well mean that this planet, like its predecessor, goes the way of the ASTEROID belt - between Mars and Jupiter. Even the moon, our most recent incarnation, was essentially, an abortion. Have we come far enough, not to do it again? A third time?

I dunno, Atlantis was pretty rough. WWII recapitulated that tragedy, and we now FACE THE FUTURE, from a vantage point, and with certain signs (sic) in our favor - as never before. "Trusting God," while a damn good start (!) :) - is indeed, just that.

I think we can profit by learning from the past. By studying it, and seeing what went wrong, where, and why. And by learning precisly how NOT to repeat those same mistakes. Yet our government denies the presence of other Humanities, who have always been a part of our heritage, of OUR own Human-ness, and which have ALWAYS helped us move ... toward our OWN Planetary goals of Brotherhood and Cooperation.

Sirius, the Cosmic Christ Himself, ambassadorially, was present for the founding of the League of Nations, and certainly also so for the birth of the UN. This, energy-wise, is like saying that GOD did strengthen the organizing of say, this handful of ant colonies over here, into one great, GROUP COLONY ... the precursor of a Global Cooperation of Ants for all time to come.

Now it just remains, for the main colonies to continue to work towards this Integration and Synthesis. There may be rebel ants, or those of us who have doubts and misgivings about this proposed "Unity thing" that God has destined for us. After all, we're just not used to it. Our ant ways of life have included WAR between the neighboring colonies for so, so long. And some of us think it can only be so, even for some time to come. No small wonder we don't see - that the time is NOW ... NOT several centuries, or millennia from now. :eek: [Ant Bully, worth seeing. :)]

Here are some words from a wise sage, relevant, I think, since we are seeing precisely this occurring, right now, on the world stage. The context, is a letter from August 9, 1945, the closing days of WWII, following the release of atomic energy - and it addresses the future, well into and past the present times. This is long, but poignant:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The release of the energy of the atom is as yet in an extremely embryonic stage; humanity little knows the extent or the nature of the energies which have been tapped and released.
...
[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The hour of service of the saving force has now arrived.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]This "saving force" is the energy which science has released into the world for the destruction, first of all, of those who continue (if they do) to defy the Forces of Light working through the United Nations. Then - as time goes on - this liberated energy will usher in the new civilization, the new and better world and the finer, more spiritual conditions. The highest dreams of those who love their fellowmen can become practical possibilities through the right use of this liberated energy, if the real values are taught, emphasized and applied to daily living. This "saving force" has now been made available by science, and my earlier prophecy substantiated.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica](See A Treatise on White Magic, published in 1934, beginning on Page 333, where the following statements appear:
It might be noted here that three great discoveries are imminent and during the next two generations will revolutionize modern thought and life.
One is already sensed and is the subject of experiment and investigation, the releasing of the energy of the atom. This will completely change the economic and political situation in the world, for the latter is largely dependent upon the former. Our mechanical civilization will be simplified, and an era ushered in which will be free from the incubus of money (its possession and its non-possession), and the human family will recognize universally its status as a bridging kingdom between the three lower kingdoms of nature and the fifth or spiritual kingdom. There will be time and freedom for a soul culture which will supersede our modern methods of education, and the significance of soul powers and the development of the superhuman consciousness will engross the attention of educators and students everywhere.
A second discovery will grow out of the present investigations as to light and color.
The third development, which will be the last probably to take place, will be more strictly in the realm of what the occultists call magic. It will grow out of the study of sound and the effect of sound, and will put into man's hands a tremendous instrument in the world of creation.)
...
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]As I said above, the first use of this energy has been material destruction; this was inevitable and desirable; old forms (obstructing the good) have had to be destroyed; the wrecking and disappearance of that which is bad and undesirable must ever precede the building of the good and desirable and the longed-for emergence of that which is new and better.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The constructive use of this energy and its harnessing for the betterment of humanity is its real purpose; this living energy of substance itself, hitherto shut up within the atom and imprisoned in these ultimate forms of life, can be turned wholly into that which is good and can bring about such a revolutionizing of the modes of human experience that (from one angle alone) it will necessitate and bring about an entirely new economic world structure.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]It lies in the hands of the United Nations to protect this released energy from misuse and to see that its power is not prostituted to selfish ends and purely material purposes. It is a "saving force" and has in it the potency of rebuilding, of rehabilitation and of reconstruction. Its right use can abolish destitution, bring civilized comfort (and not useless luxury) to all upon our planet; its expression in forms of right living, if motivated by right human relations, will produce beauty, warmth, color, the abolition of the present forms of disease, the withdrawal of mankind from all activities which involve living or working underground, and will bring to an end all human slavery, all need to work or fight for possessions and things, and will render possible a state of life which will leave man free to pursue the higher aims of the Spirit. The prostituting of life to the task of providing the bare necessities or to making it possible for a few rich and privileged people to have too much when others have too little, will come to an end; men everywhere can now be released into a state of life which will give them leisure and time to follow spiritual objectives, to realize richer cultural life, and to attain a broader mental perspective.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]But, my brothers, men will fight to prevent this; the reactionary groups in every country will neither recognize the need for, nor desire this new world order which the liberation of cosmic energy (even on this initial tiny scale) can make possible; the vested interests, the big cartels, trusts and monopolies that controlled the past few decades, preceding this world war, will mobilize their resources and fight to the death to prevent the extinction of their sources of income; they will not permit, if they can help it, the passing of the control of this illimitable power into the hands of the masses, to whom it rightly belongs. The selfish interests among the big stockholders, the banking firms and the wealthy organized churches will oppose all change, except in so far as it will benefit them and bring more financial gain to their coffers. [And so we see ... all emphasis mine.]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Signs of this opposition can already be seen in the utterances of certain powerful men who are today encouraging a gloomy outlook in London and in Washington and elsewhere; the Vatican, that wealthy and reactionary ecclesiastical organization, has already expressed its disfavor, because that Church knows - as do all the vested and monied interests - that their days are numbered, provided humanity governs its decisions during the next fifty years by the idea of the greatest good to the greatest number. World decisions must therefore, in the future, be based upon a steady determination to further right human relations and to prevent selfish control, financial or ecclesiastical, by any group of men, anywhere, in any country. We believe the determination of Great Britain, the United States, and Canada, who are in possession of the secrets, is along these lines.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]These few suggestions will give you much food for thought and real ground for happy, confident, forward thinking. Organize now for the goodwill work. The future of the world lies in the hands of the men of goodwill and in those who have unselfish purpose everywhere. This release of energy will eventually make money, as we know it, of no moment whatsoever; money has proved itself (owing to man's limitations) a producer of evil and the sower of dissension and discontent in the world. This new released energy can prove itself a "saving force" for all mankind, releasing from poverty, ugliness, degradation, slavery and despair; it will destroy the great monopolies, take the curse out of labor, and open the door into that golden age for which all men wait. It will level all the artificial layers of modern society and liberate men from the constant anxiety and gruelling toil which have been responsible for so much disease and death. When these new and better conditions are established, then men will be free to live and move in beauty and to seek the "Lighted Way."
[/FONT]​
Defintely food for thought. Much in these paragraphs, and in preceding ones, has motivated my search for answers (and the finding of them) for the past several years. Doors have opened - and I do see Light! :)

Love and Light,

andrew
 
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