Judging-Are we supposed to??

[Dor]

The question I have for everyone is are we supposed to judge.

Matthew 7:1 may very well be the most quoted and misused verse in the Bible.
Matt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
It is used as protection for those who know they can be challenged. It is the rope-a-dope of false teachers who resist any inspection or accountability.
If people read verse 2-5 along with that one we clearly see that he is warning of hypocritical judgement, not judging to discern if a teacher or teaching is true or false.

Jesus also said in John7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
If something is harmful to others or contradicts the Bible should we say something and not simply ignore it.
At what point does our silence become a sin itself?

In Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Jesus warns us about false prophets, yet how are we to determine false prophets if we do not judge them based on the Word of God.

If we speak out about the heresies outside of the church then why would we not speak out about the heresies inside the church.

Does it reach a point where the tolerance actually starts to effect the message and therefore maybe even salvation??

 

[BlaznFattyz]

do not say things similar to the lord has rebuked you or you are not worthy or a fool, or you are going to hell for sure. for these things are judgemental and we do not know their hearts or their future, only god does. do not discourage or scare people away from god.

but do say similar things such as it is not right to have hate in your heart, for the lord loves you even when you have sinned, for christ died while we were yet sinners so we might have eternal life. And in him there is peace.

for that is love that to show the truth, and there is no fault in that, but you can only show the way, christ has to do the rest. judging and forcing are not good.

 

[Dor]

Aye I was asking about judging teachers and teachings....not a man's salvation.
There is a difference but like one of the questions how can we beware of false prophets if we do not judge them according to the Word of God?

 

[BlaznFattyz]

that is a different form of judging. it is a means of establishing a relationship with a church. if a pastor says things that are not inline with scripture or does not give you anything from the living bible that you can apply to your life, or does not get you to accept that you need to confess all your sins before christ. that is measuring it against a standard. the standard being a church that god is working in and through. if it does not measure up, fear not that pastor or those people, but look for a better church.

 

[Terrence]

Thats a difficult subject in the post modern world we live in today. Jesus says in Matt. 5 of hypocretes (those with logs in their eyes telling others with specks to not do things they themselves do) do not judge. Yet, in one chapt. back (matt 4) He says "You shall know them [Christians] by their fruits." Now, what are we to think? Is God a skitosfranic? No, certianly not! The answer is simple. God gives us the right to call a spade, or in biblical language, "make righteous judgements." When someone makes a righteous judgement, they are not judging, but instead telling the truth. For instance, if I were to say to a gay man, God loves people and desires them saved. But, God is Holy and if you were to continue in sin, you would go to hell." I am not judging that man, but telling him the truth. And herein lies the problem...people dont want to be told what to do, especially when they are doing things that are sinful (and they know it is sinful). Men love darkness and not light. So, in order to maintian sin and their love for it, people must do what they must to stop the others from telling truth. So, what do they do? They label such men: Intolernant, self righteous, hypocrates, etc. ect. The truth is though, it is only the man who tells you such hard truth to your face that really loves you. All that said however, man cannot judge another's heart or issue with salvation. Only God knows the inner workings of the heart and He knows who will be saved not us. If I were to be telling anyone of you "You are going to hell" that would be wrong and you should label me a false teacher or something worse.

 

[seattlegal]

The question I have for everyone is are we supposed to judge.

Matthew 7:1 may very well be the most quoted and misused verse in the Bible.
Matt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
It is used as protection for those who know they can be challenged. It is the rope-a-dope of false teachers who resist any inspection or accountability.
If people read verse 2-5 along with that one we clearly see that he is warning of hypocritical judgement, not judging to discern if a teacher or teaching is true or false.

I agree. We are warned not to be deceived. Here are some other verses to consider along with this:

12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Compare this to what Jesus said right after the Lord's Prayer:

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

As well as what Jesus said at Matt 7:1-2

1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

We are the ones who determine how we will be judged. If we forgive others, we will also be forgiven. It's the Principle of Reciprocity, or the "golden rule," which repeatedly shows up in almost all religions, as practiced by God. It's logically consistant and fair, isn't it? Righteous would be a term that comes to mind. However, we must also understand that righteousness goes hand in hand with reducing harmfulness, and we must be able to discern what is harmful and the best way to correct it. The first place we have to start is by looking at ourselves. If we ourselves engage in harmful behaviour, how are we going to be able to help others without spreading harm? That is no way to promote healing.

Jesus also said in John7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
If something is harmful to others or contradicts the Bible should we say something and not simply ignore it.
At what point does our silence become a sin itself?

If we don't speak out, the harmfulness will continue, and no healing can take place. The truth can sometimes be uncomfortable for those who don't want to acknowledge it, but we must speak the truth nonetheless.

In Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Jesus warns us about false prophets, yet how are we to determine false prophets if we do not judge them based on the Word of God.

If we speak out about the heresies outside of the church then why would we not speak out about the heresies inside the church.

Does it reach a point where the tolerance actually starts to effect the message and therefore maybe even salvation??

Jesus says we will be guided by the Holy Spirit in such cases. Healing, not persecution, is the mission. Discernment is needed. Mercy is needed. Persecution to ourselves is to be expected, especially within the religious establishments.

16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another....

There are those who see righteousness as a license to harm others, but there are those who understand that righteousness is a way to promote healing. Discernment between the two is very important.

 

[Snoopy]

If we don't speak out, the harmfulness will continue, and no healing can take place. The truth can sometimes be uncomfortable for those who don't want to acknowledge it, but we must speak the truth nonetheless.

On that basis could I make the assertion that one's sexuality is not of our choosing, any more than our gender or the colour of our hair. No one is in sin or needing salvation because of their sexuality, their gender or their hair colour.

Snoopy.

 

[seattlegal]

No one is in sin or needing salvation because of their sexuality, their gender or their hair colour.

Hey, I have my proverbial "blonde moments," when I don't realize that my thinking might lead to harmful consequences. I would certainly hope that someone would mercifully point them out to me when I have them, explain why such thinking/behaviour might be harmful, and forgive me for having them.

 

[Snoopy]

sg,

As you didn't choose to be blonde, there's no need to be forgiven.


But we'll still pity you and bar you from certain institutions.


Snoop miaowy snoop.

 

[wil]

Me thinks anyone who thinks Jesus isn't speaking to them (with the log in their eye) is a hypocrite. We all have our issues, and none of us should be at the front of the line picking up stones....but that is being judgemental...

I see righteous as beyond earthly, material thought, seeing the light of Christ in those we meet, as Seattle expressed tying it to forgiveness, hate the sin, love the sinner...that is righteous judgement...

And can we judge, sure that question revolves around free will, judge away, we will be rewarded in equal measure in the end...or sooner.

I agree BlazznFattyz fear not that pastor or those people, but look for a better church... we need not focus on others, we've all got plenty of work to do on ourcellves.

 

[seattlegal]

sg,

As you didn't choose to be blonde, there's no need to be forgiven.


But we'll still pity you and bar you from certain institutions.


Snoop miaowy snoop.

Alright, but what if I decided that I liked being "blonde" and revelled in the consequences of my "blonde behaviour" so much that I went out and bought a bottle of peroxide so I could permanently have "blonde moments?" {Proverbally speaking, of course.}

 

[Dor]

I actually meant this strictly in the whole Teacher/teaching mode. As far as should we judge teachers and what they are teaching. Not a persons salvation, heart or individual sin.

How far do we let a group or person go before we pull out the *gasp* heresy title?

 

[wil]

How far do we let a group or person go before we pull out the *gasp* heresy title?

Why do we have to? Steven Covey Habit 5, Seek first to understand then to be understood.

Whoever chooses to knock on my door, I let them in. I ask questions until they look at their watches! I'm talkig Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the local Bible Church whoever is out there doing their work, I let them in. I make sure to ask them back, they usually come back with different people as they see I need so desperately to be saved.

I've read the books and pamphlets they've left me. I highlight and underline and write questioins in the margins. I get out my bibles and concordances and we have a discussion.

Why do I need to call them anything? If I choose to I can ask them not to return, or I don't have to open my door, or I don't have to go to their church. But open discussion leads both of us to an understanding of each others thought...and more often than not to an acceptable understanding and acceptance of each other as humans seeking spirit...simply finding it in different ways.

 

[seattlegal]

I actually meant this strictly in the whole Teacher/teaching mode. As far as should we judge teachers and what they are teaching. Not a persons salvation, heart or individual sin.

How far do we let a group or person go before we pull out the *gasp* heresy title?

The answer is right there, continuing on in Matthew 7. It would seem that good trees produce good fruit, and bad trees produce bad fruit. Those who have solid foundations in Jesus's sayings would weather through "the storms," while those that are not based upon Jesus's sayings will be "washed away."

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I love how my Pastor phrases it... gently of course.. we are not called to be judges.. we are called to be fruit inspectors..

 

[Terrence]

I like that too!