BK Religions

[Dor]

The Bible says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it" (Jeremiah 17:9).
The Bible also warns, "There is a way which SEEMETH RIGHT UNTO A MAN, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12).
The Bible warns: “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; AND LEAN NOT UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths” (Proverbs 3:5-6).

Judas lived and labored with the other apostles for three years, and all of that time he was a deceiver and a false Christian. Yet none of the apostles knew it. In fact, it appears that they did not even suspect him. They were deceived.
Jesus warned that there would be many false teachers and they will appear to be sheep even though they are wolves (Matt. 7:15-17). The only way to look beyond the sheep’s clothing is to examine their teaching and practice by God’s Word.(hmm what is God's Word)

Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24 of the time just preceding His return. One of the characteristics of those last hours will be worldwide theological apostasy. It will be an hour of deep spiritual deception, of false miracles, of error so subtle that even the truly born again people of God will find it difficult to detect the truth from the error.
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. ... And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. ... For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:4,11,24)
The Lord Jesus Christ warned of this in Matthew 24:24. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
There are similar prophecies in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:5-11; 2 Timothy 3:8; and Revelation 13:11-14.
The Lord Jesus warned plainly that there will be many who will call Him Lord and who will do miracles in His name, but they will be false (Matt. 7:21-23).


If we are warned so much that there will be deception and false teachers and to test things with God's Word(the bible). Then why do we have such a rash of do it your own way religions.

Sorry, there is Christianity and false Christianity. There are true christians and false christians in every denomination and walk of life known to man kind.

True Christianity is not Burger King, You dont get it your way.

Your loving fundy brother in Christ.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

first. lol

 

[wil]

What tells us Judas was a deceiver and false Christian?

Where would Christianity be today without Judas?

Isn't he a required part of the equation and didn't Jesus say so, more than once?

John 13:21After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me." 22His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. 24Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, "Ask him which one he means."
25Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?"
26Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
"What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, 28but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. 30As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

I always found this interesting...Judas got the bread (the body, the earthly material understanding) but not the wine (the blood, the spirit, heavenly understanding) He was relied on to handle the money, an important job for the 12, and he was relied on for this task...an important job for the rest of Christendom.

 

[Dor]

What tells us Judas was a deceiver and false Christian?

Where would Christianity be today without Judas?

Isn't he a required part of the equation and didn't Jesus say so, more than once?

Yes he was a required part of the equation....was just showing that the Apostles themselves did not know about him so everyone can mistake someone.

Jesus knew the truth about him of course. It had also been prophecied yrs before.

 

[kiwimac]

Judas got bad press.

 

[manephelien]

Judas was necessary for Christianity to form. Some are angry with him because he betrayed Jesus. However, without Jesus dying on the cross, there would be no Christianity. That's why I find it absolutely astounding that some people still vilify the Jews because they insisted Jesus be crucified.

If you truly believe in Christ as the Savior (I don't so the point is moot for me), you should thank everyone from the judge who sentenced him to Judas who betrayed him and the executioners who nailed him to the cross for giving you the central tenet of your faith. In other words, if the crucifixion was planned by God from the beginning, all the people who made it come true were only doing God's work, even if unwittingly.

 

[seattlegal]

What tells us Judas was a deceiver and false Christian?

He was a thief and did not care about the poor, but pretended he did:

4 But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said, 5 “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.

He had already planned to betray Jesus before Satan entered into him at the Passover celebration, but pretended otherwise:

14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?” And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him.

17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?”
18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”
19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.
20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”
22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, “Lord, is it I?”
23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?”
He said to him, “You have said it.”

Where would Christianity be today without Judas?

Isn't he a required part of the equation and didn't Jesus say so, more than once?

We must learn from Judas's bad example. Jesus did say that the Scriptures must be fulfilled regarding the Son of Perdition:

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Please notice how Judas was also given power to cast out demons and do miraculous healings, along with the rest of the twelve?

1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

Compare this to the false teachers warned about in Matt 7 that Dor mentioned in his opening post:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

If you take all of this evidence into account, we can see that Judas Iscariot betrayed the Christian ideal before he actually sold Jesus out to The Chief Priests and Captains. We are warned in Matt chapter 7 to look out for those like him, and that we will know them by their fruits.

 

[17th Angel]

Judas got bad press.

Judas is my bro ;\

 

[wil]

He was a thief and did not care about the poor, but pretended he did:

He had already planned to betray Jesus before Satan entered into him at the Passover celebration, but pretended otherwise:

Where do we get that he pretended to care...for how long did he follow Jesus and handle the funds, and do this pretending?

Here is the first reference I find and again it indicates 'Satan' entered him prior...Same story as Mathew, just added Satan to the picture...

Luke 22-Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus 1Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.

If you take all of this evidence into account, we can see that Judas Iscariot betrayed the Christian ideal before he actually sold Jesus out to The Chief Priests and Captains. We are warned in Matt chapter 7 to look out for those like him, and that we will know them by their fruits.

I'm still missing the biblical evidence (without conjecture) that Judas betrayed the Christian ideal before dealing with the Priests...

If Jesus thought he was to betray him, (and it wasn't part of the overall plan, the bigger picture) why wouldn't he have distanced himself from him.

Prior to Judas heading to the Priests, Jesus knew his time had come.

6"Leave her alone," said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 7The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. 8She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. 9I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."

To me it all points to Judas doing Jesus/G-ds will. Interesting the last line #9, who poured the oil, who is this mystery woman that whose deeds will be mentioned wherever the gospel is preached? Or does this belong over in Penguins Magdalene question thread?

 

[Thomas]

Let's not be too hard...

None of the disciples understood what was unfolding before their eyes, and all of them knew that Jesus going up to Jerusalem was a dangerous undertaking:
"Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him." (John 11:16)

One line of thought is that Judas thought he might steal the initiative from the sanherdrin by forcing their hand - and Christ's - as it were ... if so then consider Judas' actions in light of this:
"... Jesus [began] to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day ... Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."
Matthew 16:21-23

Basically Peter's saying 'not if I have anything to do with it' and Judas is trying to do the same thing ... decide what is best according to their own determination...

In the Drama of Revelation we have the Drama of Archetypes ... the story of Jesus and Judas is the story of Israel, of humanity, of the human tendency to serve itself ... Judas didn't invent betrayal - the crime is as old as Cain - and in that Judas 'embodies' this aspect of the human condition ... to portray Judas as good or misunderstood is, I think, to miss the metaphysical point for the sake of sentiment ... and remember that Judas betrayed, but it was the High Priest who condemned, and 'we the people' who endorsed his condemnation and shouted down the voice of reason ... I bet there were more than a few in that crowd who were his followers the day before, and who felt betrayed because He was not the Messiah who would come to rid them of the Romans.

The Crucifixion is not 'new' in that regard - it simply acts out, in the material realm, what happens in the spiritual realm all the time ... at times we are all Judas, and at times we are all John ... but most of the time, I think we're most like Peter ... self-willed.

Thomas

 

[seattlegal]

Where do we get that he pretended to care...for how long did he follow Jesus and handle the funds, and do this pretending?

Here is the first reference I find and again it indicates 'Satan' entered him prior...Same story as Mathew, just added Satan to the picture...
I'm still missing the biblical evidence (without conjecture) that Judas betrayed the Christian ideal before dealing with the Priests...

Well, it's up to you whether you want to believe the scripture I posted from the Gospel of John 12:6 or not. {shrug}

 

[wil]

Well, it's up to you whether you want to believe the scripture I posted from the Gospel of John 12:6 or not. {shrug}

I do believe that was written from the perspective of decades of hindsight, not any contemporaneous quote.

 

[seattlegal]

I do believe that was written from the perspective of decades of hindsight, not any contemporaneous quote.

Whichever the case may be, we can use this scripture as an example by which to be forewarned.

 

[Prober]

The Bible says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it" (Jeremiah 17:9).
The Bible also warns, "There is a way which SEEMETH RIGHT UNTO A MAN, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12).
The Bible warns: “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; AND LEAN NOT UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths” (Proverbs 3:5-6).

Amen! "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

 

[kiwimac]

Interesting that Mark has little to say about Judas and Paul (whose writings are the earliest Christian ones) nothing at all.

 

[wil]

Interesting that Mark has little to say about Judas and Paul (whose writings are the earliest Christian ones) nothing at all.

Agreed.

My issues with Judas...

If we take Jesus as divine, G-d incarnate, and we believe Judas deceived the Apostles for three years...he couldn't have ever deceived Jesus, therefore Judas did exactly what G-d/Jesus wanted him to.

Now I'm still not understanding how he died, was it in the field with his guts spillin out or did he hang himself. I am aware that some say he hung himself, fell and spilled his guts out...seems a stretch, no pun intended.

I do believe Judas was an integral part in the whole, taught us many lessons, and will teach us many more. Interesting that it is so open about his life and death... I know the Judas papers upset many, but I think it is also interesting their were so many that thought along those lines before they were discovered. (granted most of them heretics by many standards)

 

[seattlegal]

If we take Jesus as divine, G-d incarnate, and we believe Judas deceived the Apostles for three years...he couldn't have ever deceived Jesus, therefore Judas did exactly what G-d/Jesus wanted him to.

Are you suggesting that Judas had no free will in the matter?

 

[wil]

Are you suggesting that Judas had no free will in the matter?

No not at all. But it is sort of like Timothy McViegh, you take a hot head, build a fire under him, put a couple of ideas in his head, give him the means, materials, access, a a plan and some encouragement, and you get two things, the end result you desire and a scapegoat.

As many have described Judas had known tendencies. I see him as being a changed man, following Jesus, handling the groups affairs. But that latent behaviour was just below the surface and if your mentor, your saviour says,
"What you are about to do, do quickly" You go on to your assigned duty, which of the other apostles would have been ready to take on that task?

Is this conjecture, sure, all sides of this discussion are. We are talking about three years of constant companionship and discussion that is boiled down to only a few pages of words that we have available on the subject.

If anyone of us were to have our words, discussions, recorded and transcribed for one day there would be more dialogue than the entire gospels.

 

[Prober]

Agreed.

My issues with Judas...

If we take Jesus as divine, G-d incarnate, and we believe Judas deceived the Apostles for three years...he couldn't have ever deceived Jesus, therefore Judas did exactly what G-d/Jesus wanted him to.

Don't we all carry out God's plan? "I have hardened Pharaoh's heart..." etc.

 

[Dor]

Wil How about the fact that Judas just did not have the faith, belief etc. Maybe he just did not believe everything and his own nature was there and did what he wanted to.

Jesus knew what was going to happen he did not have to push Judas cause he knew what was going to happen. Just like he did not push Peter to denouce him 3 times but he damn sure knew he was going to do it.