All truths are gods truth

Dondi,


only one truth hmm yes, and it's naked i.e. Nothing in existence is absolute, thence one cannot say a truth without it being affected by other things.


Vaj,


namaste


i know that both meanings are stated in your tradition, it was simply an example of seamingly opposite truths. If i had used both cases from the same religion it would not have had the desired effect. i am trying to show how there are truths to all traditions, and of course fallabilities.

i presume that you disagree with the idea that there is only one truth.

.
 
Dondi,


only one truth hmm yes, and it's naked i.e. Nothing in existence is absolute, thence one cannot say a truth without it being affected by other things.


Vaj,


namaste


i know that both meanings are stated in your tradition, it was simply an example of seamingly opposite truths. If i had used both cases from the same religion it would not have had the desired effect. i am trying to show how there are truths to all traditions, and of course fallabilities.

i presume that you disagree with the idea that there is only one truth.

.


I guess I look in linear terms;

2 + 2 = 4
2 + 2 = 5

These two expressions cannot both be right. One of them is wrong. Now if you can demonstrate that somehow they can both be right, then I might be inclined to believe it.
 
Is this true? In February are the hottest days says the South African. No in the winter it is cold, says Canadian, you are wrong...no you are wrong....

Man cannot fly, G-d parted the waters and put one above us..., going to the moon is impossible....G-d put a light in the night sky...

All of it appears to be conjecture, perspective based on current understandings, our society...

Why do we think G-d couldn't have talked to Buddha, Mohamed, Moses, Lao Tzu, Ezekial, Jesus? Why couldn't they all be right at their level of understanding, for the people they spoke to, for the people that thier words and thoughts speak to today?

I would agree that your statement of:

All of it appears to be conjecture

Is true to many things... however Jesus said:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

To me this seems pretty clear that if you beleive Jesus was a prophet (and not the messiah) then you still are not in agreeance with his teachings. He said he is the only way to the Father, the only way to heaven.


In this specific case I would have to agree with Dondi:

One of them has to be wrong. Or perhaps they are both wrong. But they cannot both be right.


They seem to contradict. I strongly beleive that no contradictions can exist, either one is wrong, both are wrong, or they are misunderstood. As far is it goes on the Jesus side I think his statement is pretty blunt and hard to misunderstand.

So someone who says they are a Muslim and a Christian and only regard Jesus as a prophet would not in fact be a "Christian", at least in my classification of the word.

Now someone who claims to be a Muslim and a Christian that beleives jesus is in fact the messiah, though beleives in Muslim teachings also may be possible, I'm not familiar enough with Muslim teachings to know if something completely contradicts Jesus being the messiah.



Just some of my thoughts :)
 
I would agree that your statement of:

Quote:
All of it appears to be conjecture
Is true to many things... however Jesus said:

Quote:
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
To me this seems pretty clear that if you beleive Jesus was a prophet (and not the messiah) then you still are not in agreeance with his teachings. He said he is the only way to the Father, the only way to heaven.
Namaste Matt,

Now to be totally correct and not interject conjecture, must we not say...

"Between 30-50 years after his death, Jesus was purported to say, by someone who didn't know him in life..'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' "

Now the question still could very well be...He starts out with I AM, so is he talking as Jesus the Messiah, son of G-d, or from his I and the father are one self? As we all know I AM is the way the truth and the life...and in the next verses he goes on to say that seeing him is seeing the father, knowing him is knowing the father.

If we were taking it as gospel that those were his words..the KJV and other older versions have by me, instead of through me...now I don't know why the switch, I don't translate Greek, Coptic or Aramaic so all leave this to others...but we also know that a reference to oneself as a Jew is also referencing ones nature. He was asked how will we know where to go, and how to get there. And the answer is I am the way, the truth and the life...could he be indicating to follow his nature, follow his works in his footsteps?

I still say it is conjecture, my understanding is suitable for me, and your understanding is suitable for you and they may or may not be suitable for each other....

Therin lies the glory.
 
Your point about Bible versions is definately valid... Here is the same verse from "Young's Literal Translation" which is a version of the translation of the bible attempting to do a "literal" translation as it's name says.

Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;


"no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;" Is the part that sounds out fairly obvious to me, though I do value your assessment of the context of the time. There are many other scriptures that take on a different meaning when in true context of the time (such as the turn the other cheek scripture).

Between 30-50 years after his death, Jesus was purported to say, by someone who didn't know him in life

Fair statement... however in history and science books we don't always append "Between 300-2000 years after the event, these people were purported to say". Instead we challenge the historical accuracy of the author and the writing, there are many tests and these tests have been applied to the gospel books of the bible. From what I have studied it is very possible to assume the statements from these books as valid and accurate, though I would highly recommend you or anyone else to research the validity of these books on your own. There are many resources and many studies done challenging whether or not those books are a valid and I have seen more than s ufficient proof (for myself) to beleive in their accuracy. Just as I would read a certain history book and deem it valid enough of a representation.



I still say it is conjecture, my understanding is suitable for me, and your understanding is suitable for you and they may or may not be suitable for each other....

Therin lies the glory.

Not to mean anything offensively but therin lies the glory for you. Your statements are very subjective. On the contrary I beleive in things as being objective. To me saying that if a beleif is good enough for the person then it must be valid and true is false. To me that is very subjective and I beleive subjectivity has it's place in evaluating situations, though I don't beleive in reality being subjective.

For example, say we had a friend that we both valued. Say that friend went off into a land and we never heard from them for years. Finally we get word back that our friend is dead. Now lets say we both heard two different reports of them, one says they did good deeds and helped many people. Lets say the other said they did horrible deads and killed and hurt many people (this often is the same view of military or political leaders from different perspectives).

Lets say you chose to beleive that they were good and did good things and conversely I chose to beleive they were bad and did bad things. Now if reality and beleifs are subjective then whatever we each beleived would be true and accurate... but it isn't. Now the words "bad" or "good" attached to the deeds are relative and that indeed is subjective; however, what the person did was not subjective, their actions and results were not subjective even if people's views on them are. Those are there even if we choose not to seek them.

Not disauding your view, if anything I value that you have your view and stick with it, just relating that not everyone beleives in things being subjective.
 
Namaste Z,

thank you for the post.

i know that both meanings are stated in your tradition, it was simply an example of seamingly opposite truths. If i had used both cases from the same religion it would not have had the desired effect.

it would, however, be correct :) Then again, i often have the impression that preciseness isn't as desireable a quality as effect in the venue of public discourse.

i presume that you disagree with the idea that there is only one truth.

.

Naturally :)

of course, such a thing is quite dependent upon ones point of view.

metta,

~v
 
I guess I look in linear terms;

2 + 2 = 4
2 + 2 = 5

These two expressions cannot both be right. One of them is wrong. Now if you can demonstrate that somehow they can both be right, then I might be inclined to believe it.

Namaste Dondi,

I can show you how both of these are incorrect.. would that be sufficent?

your question is based on the presumtion of a Base10 maths system.. however, there are other systems that are used... such as Binary. in the Binary system, both of your equations are False, thus, they are the same in that regard :)

metta,

~v
 
your question is based on the presumtion of a Base10 maths system.. however, there are other systems that are used... such as Binary. in the Binary system, both of your equations are False, thus, they are the same in that regard

However those are not binary numbers so this wouldn't be a binary system. That would be like trying to translate egyptian with english characters.
 
However those are not binary numbers so this wouldn't be a binary system. That would be like trying to translate egyptian with english characters.

Namaste Matt,

that is correct. The issue is the assumptions upon which are deductions rest and how these very things are, often, not accurate representations of the ontological reality we experience.

the idea of 2+2=4 is only consistent and accurate within its own frame of reference and it only makes sense from within this framework as well.

metta,

~v
 
Namaste Dondi,

I can show you how both of these are incorrect.. would that be sufficent?

your question is based on the presumtion of a Base10 maths system.. however, there are other systems that are used... such as Binary. in the Binary system, both of your equations are False, thus, they are the same in that regard :)

metta,

~v

You've made my point, regardless of what base system is used. I did say that there was a possibility that both could be wrong. If we use binary, octal, or even hexidecimal, they would both be wrong.

It is true that both would be false, if that is the kind of truth you are looking for. But they are not the same. They do not equate. They are empty set.

My original premise still stands.
 
Hi all,


2 + 2 = 4 is false because in real terms you cannot have two things exactly the same, this is why numbers are metaphoric. Hmm we could perhaps ask if '0' has a representation in reality though! And perhaps '1'.


matt.

If all truths are gods truth, then science etc is gods truth also – yet jesus didnt teach us this, along with many many other wisdoms. So we may say at the very least that we may know gods truths that are not spoked by jesus.


I wont go into my usual 'its a big universe' banter such as 'are all beings on all other planets damned etc. suffice to say that all teachers provide us with gods truths, and more often than not they are very similar to other truths that have been around for milenia..
such as jainist truths and buddhist truths eh vaj! :p

.
 
You've made my point, regardless of what base system is used. I did say that there was a possibility that both could be wrong. If we use binary, octal, or even hexidecimal, they would both be wrong.

It is true that both would be false, if that is the kind of truth you are looking for. But they are not the same. They do not equate. They are empty set.

My original premise still stands.

Namaste Dondi,

thank you for the post.

you offered two bits of evidence and said that these two are not equal, one of them is correct and one of them is wrong.

what i've demonstrated is that they are, in fact, equal. they are equally wrong if one is using a different maths base, which you agree with ;)

if, however, they are an empty set, they are both open and closed!

The set containing no elements, denoted
inline1.gif
. Strangely, the empty set is both open and closed for any set
inline2.gif
and topology. A set that is not the empty set is called a nonempty set. The empty set is sometimes also known as the null set (Mendelson 1997). Unfortunately, some authors use the notation 0 instead of
inline3.gif
for empty set (Mendelson 1997).

Empty Set -- from Wolfram MathWorld

metta,

~v
 
Let's say we live in the real world and 2 + 2 = 4.

I don't care how many times you try to twist it around, if you have 2 apples and I give you 2 apples, then you will have a total of 4 apples, not 5. Now you will probably take the factor of time into the equation and say that you've planted a few seeds and now have a whole tree full of apples. But then you are getting into something beyond the simple illustration. Sigh. Fine, if you want to complicate things. But I was trying to show in simplistic terms the logic of truth in simple mathematic terms. I fail to see how manipulating the numbers changes things.

2 + 2 = 4
 
Namaste Dondi,

thank you for the post.

the 'real' world as you say, has more than one mathmatical base, it is not simply a Base10 world :)

i posed the question that if i could show that both 2+2=5 and 2+2=4 are identical, in that they are both false, would that be sufficient evidence to demonstrate their sameness?

metta,

~v
 
Namaste Dondi,

thank you for the post.

the 'real' world as you say, has more than one mathmatical base, it is not simply a Base10 world :)

i posed the question that if i could show that both 2+2=5 and 2+2=4 are identical, in that they are both false, would that be sufficient evidence to demonstrate their sameness?

metta,

~v

But we're not talking about sameness here, we're talking about truthfulness. The premise you give renders the statements the same, yet they are still false.
 
But we're not talking about sameness here, we're talking about truthfulness. The premise you give renders the statements the same, yet they are still false.

It is *true* that they are both false ;)

nevertheless, we can drop this and I will stop derailing the thread :)

metta,

~v
 
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