samabudhi, u say, in reference to my post "....This is the Hari Krsna's modus operandi, and see how well it is received in the west?"
well, apart from food for life programs, I dont think they did much else, and I might be wrong but I thought that they only did that to recruit ppl into their flock, so I dont see ur point there...
u also say- "I haven't met a guru who doesn't have some outreach program on the go", and to this I would say then u are very fortunate, for I have met plenty who don't, and for most of those who do they do it for the sake of their charitable status, and the percentage of profit that is spent is minimal.
you also say "But understand that they do this only when their more precise role as spiritual heirs is not appreciated"
and to this I have to laugh. To my mind, the only teacher is the dharma, I am not a flag waver or someone who bows and scrapes. Unfortunately for me, most teachers I encounter are not worthy of my worship, but maybe that's just me.
you also say "The monastic life is for study, meditation, and teaching the lay. The monastery is the spiritual pillar of society which gives direction and purpose", although to me not much real study goes on, unless u count reciting parrot fashion what ur told is the way, u dont need a temple to meditate in, and as for teaching the lay, what do they teach? A half- cocked version of buddhism is what most of them teach. U don't need monks or gurus, all u need is a good IP, or a library pass. The rest u can work out for urself, should u bother to look, in my humble opinion. Also, in my opinion, monastic life is nothing more than a nice excuse to sit on ur bum and pontificate while other ppl pay ur way in life.
You then go onto say that "(purpose is), a commodity almost completely lacking in western society since we rejected the father". Now, this I don't understand, as buddhism doesn't have a god, or a father, and I assumed u was a buddhist. I personally dislike all this talk of how "spiritual" and "enlightened" the East is, and how crappy the west is in comparison. Western society has plenty of purpose. I fail to see whats so spiritual about sitting in a hovel in Tibet drinking yak butter tea with a dirty face scratching my flea bites. Developing central heating and feeding the poor ppl would be a more useful thing than spending all ur hard earned cash buying gold leaf to garnish statues with.
You then go onto say- "Buddhism is not about rejecting society" (I agree with u there...), and u also say "It's about attaining perfection of mind, the extinction of suffering here and now, which has, as a by-product, unimaginable compassion, wisdom and power" and here I disagree with you. The perfection of mind thing is a myth. Buddha said- I teach only the origin of suffering, a way out of suffering, and the cessation of suffering... Compassion is rarely mentioned by the buddha. A feeling of mental perfection does not usually have such noble by-products. Being perfect is not what buddhism is about. Buddhism is about knowing the self and avoiding suffering so that u can have a better existence.
I dislike all this defilement stuff. My mind is not defiled. My mind is actually quite bright and clean. I swear, I smoke, I pick my nose and scratch my bum, I fart, I snore, I laugh, I tell rude jokes and I dance. Nor do I consider others to be defiled, unpure and by inference, unholy. Instead, buddhism taught me to appreciate others for what they are, without trying to change them into something they're not. We're all like nagarjuna's "fools at the magic show", we torment ourselves, dig mudholes to fall into, and are frightened by illusions we create ourselves. None of us are perfect.
you also say "there is nothing stopping people from helping themselves. As Buddhas and Bodhisattvas understand, this purification of mind is the foremost method of ending suffering, rather than flooding handouts which last only as long as the stomach is full. It's quite pathetic, actually, how some consider generosity and compassion flying over some miserable African country and turfing out a load of grain. Motivated by guilt and shame - this is not the way to live".
plenty of ppl would love to help themselves. Its why ppl row from Cuba to the USA in ramshackle boats, its why starving barefoot african mothers will walk 25K with a dying child in their arms for the hope of some food for their little ones. Handout are better than starvation. A full belly is better than books. U can't eat statues. When I give my few pennies to charity, I do not do it becuase I am motivated by guilt and shame. I am in fact motivated by compassion, as most of the ppl who give their few pennies are. Better to give a few pence than to give nothing. I hear this a lot on the buddhist scene, this- hey- dont give to charity, cos ur motivations wrong, stare at the wall instead and give ur money to me rubbish, and it sickens me. Any teacher who says it deserves to be boiled in oil. May the wheel of the law run right over their heads.
next u say- "Motivated by universal compassion, we need to understand the true cause of suffering", and I agree there. Shall we list the ways..? Ppl suffer because of ignorance, they suffer because of greed and hatred. They do not suffer because they don't agree with what guru so-and-so says, or at least, not where I live they don't.
you then go on to mention Angola, and mention that they have large oil reserves and state that their problem is greed. Yes, greed is a poison, something that causes suffering, but it is not a demon. It is something bad within mankind which would benefit everyone if it was tempered. But not all ppl are greedy and ignorant and fueled by hate, and by inference, are deserving the sufferings they experience. Some ppl are just unlucky. Giving hungry ppl "buddhadharma" is a noble idea, but u would be better off giving them a good meal first...
as for these "spiritual teachers we are so fortunate to have"... most of them are not worthy of ur worship. As far as I can see, most of them appear to disappear regularly anyway, up their own bums, along with all the wee brown nosers who worship at their lotus like feet. Do their farts smell of roses? Can they fly into the sky? are they not just men and women, like me and u? what makes their version of reality any more valid than ur own? Samatha meditation does not generate compassion. Samatha meditation uncovers the clear mind u have, which is underneath all the rubbish u've been spoon fed since u crawled out of the womb. But by itself it is useless. U also need to contemplate the concepts, adhere to the five great gifts, and eventually, u'll wake up and smell the coffee.
hopefully u will find all that very reactionary, although I hope u appreciate I am not personally attacking u... please feel free to attack my views, its the nature of debate, after all..
cheerio
