The Godhead

Silas

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I know all to well that when trying to give an anology on God, they all fall short. However, I think this one may be of some help? At least I hope so!

Time:

Time is ONE in essence yet is triune in its nature, as it exist in three seperate but equal repesentations, e.g., Past, Present, and Future. The Past, which is time and not just "part of time," is NOT the same as Present or Future. But again, it is still nonetheless time. If you were to take away any of the three representations of time (Past, Present, or Future), there would no longer be a thing as time - you'd have eternity.

Very likewise is God, for He too is ONE in essence but is triune in nature. This One God exist eternally as God the Father, God the Son [Jesus], and God the Spirit. All are Co-equal, Co-Eternal, and Co-operating for the same purpose - namely, the Glory of God. The Son, though God Himself, is NOT the Father nor is He the Spirit. And moreover, He delcars, "The Father is greater than I." Yes, that is true, for the Father is greater in relation, but not in power or essence. For this same Son delcars..."I and the Father are ONE." In scripture, all three persons of the Trinity or Godhead are called God. In the OT, Jesus is mentioned, not by name by what theologians called a "Thophany." He was the angel of the LORD (all caps). This was the preincarnate Christ, who always Is and was and yet is to come. The scriptures boldy declears that Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form. To KNOW Christ Jesus, is to Know God. If your Christology is wrong and your Jesus is only an angel, or a good man, or prophet or something other than who He is - namely the God-man, you are lost. You must not have any idols says the Lord.
 
I know all to well that when trying to give an anology on God, they all fall short. However, I think this one may be of some help? At least I hope so!

Time:

Time is ONE in essence yet is triune in its nature, as it exist in three seperate but equal repesentations, e.g., Past, Present, and Future. The Past, which is time and not just "part of time," is NOT the same as Present or Future. But again, it is still nonetheless time. If you were to take away any of the three representations of time (Past, Present, or Future), there would no longer be a thing as time - you'd have eternity.
(snip)

Greetings Silas,
Perhaps you are being more insightful than you think here. If you take away all three, that leave you with one truth.... eternal reality ..... One God
and no worshiping of idols.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
I can see where God [the creator] is the "source" of all, and perhaps where the Spirit is the essnce of the source, and maybe where Jesus is the manifistation of [both] in a fleshly body. But how can they be equal, did Spirit, or flesh create the creator? I say the creator created the spirit, and the manifistation of Christ in the flesh...how then, can all three be equal when there is but one creator?

I agree that God and spirit was made manifest in Christ, but I still view them all seperately, and with differing degrees of authority. All are to be honored, and respected, though. At least in my opinion, as they are all parts of God.


Love,
 
The view the Bible gives is that God has ALWAYS been a Triune God. He didnt manifest in different modes at different times (Modalism), but again has always been the Uncreated Creator God who inhabits Eternity. He is form EVERLATING TO EVERLASTING. He simple IS! In Eternity Past, there was God and Him alone: Father, Son, and Spirit. God was not bored or in need of anything or anyone. He was completely self-suffient and compeltly fulfilled within Himself. He is infinte and had infinite things to do. Not to mention, He had the Love of the 3 seperate persons within the Godhead in which to fellowship. That is all we Know of the Godhead as far as explaining this mystery of how ONE God could have 3 seperate persons and still remain ONE. Thats why He's God and we're not. We're left to be in awe of this God and fall postrate and worship Him!

Isnt He amazing!!
 
I love you Silas :)

Want to know what convinces me personally of the triune God?

I know the Father loves His Son Jesus and I know thats how Jesus loves me.. Jesus wants me to love Him as much as He loves the Father.. the Spirit is the manifestation of that agape love.. that love is so huge and awesome and powerful that is in itself.. a person of the Godhead. The Spirit points us to the Son and the Son glorifies the Father. The Son is the only begotten (unique) Son of God.. there is none like Him.. :) I am in awe of all three.
 
The Son is the only begotten (unique) Son of God.. there is none like Him..
yes Jesus was unique because he was the only one created by Jehovah alone , everything else in the universe was created through Jesus christ. he certainly was the unique son of God.
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. JOHN 3;16-17
(Romans 8:32) He who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all, why will he not also with him kindly give us all other things?
(1 John 4:9) By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.
(Proverbs 8:22) "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.

(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;​
 
yes Jesus was unique because he was the only one created by Jehovah alone
Jesus always existed as the word with god as god. god was made manifest through the holy spirit and jesus was born to the virgin mary, but he is not created like man was created from dust. this is a christian forum, not a jw forum, so what you say about jesus being a created spirit creature can be very offensive to some people here, such as myself, who acknowledge him as the eternal son of god.
 
Well, this might sound a bit philosophical, but me...

Did man invent 'love'?

I don't think so. But it would seem, from my tradition, and I think we can agree on this, that whatever 'love' is, 'God' is.

Therefore I think love is in the nature of God. God is Love.

But here's a problem ...

Love cannot exist in a vacuum. Love is a meaningless abstract, unless there is someone who loves, and someone who is loved. And when you have a lover and the loved, they are both equally aware of the love they have for the other.

So you have the Lover, the Loved, and the Love between them.

Love is Trinitarian.

+++

God the Father is Himself-in-Himself
(the Ground of Eckhart) – the Is-ness of God (This is where Eckhart is fundamentally not Zen – Buddhism is non-theistic, Eckhart is Absolute God, beyond all and any distinction – Zen sees it as a void, Christianity sees it as a fullness)

God the Son is His awareness of Himself
The Mind of God (eg 'Arche' or 'Logos' or 'Verbum')

God the Holy Spirit – is how God determines Himself.

Without this – without Love as Divine Principle operating over and above any created instance – love is just a chemistry, a necessity of instinct, to which out of sentimentalism we attribute certain fantastic properties.

+++

If God is Love, and the nature of God is not conditional on creation, Creation exists because God loves, not because God loves what exists – that is not necessarily the case – otherwise God is 'obliged' to love me, regardless of what I say or do, which would render God as some obsequious thing, a Uriah Heep-like being ...

That man can love, a gift of God, palls into insignificance in the face of the truth that he exists and is loved ... the love we can share with another, or the love we can offer God, is as nothing in the face of God's love.

God's Love, and God's Mercy, does not render his Justice invalid – mercy without justice is obsequiousness again ...

+++

The above is the necessary pre-existing and metaphysical principle by which 'love' can be conceived as Divine or Holy. Without it, without a notion of love 'in' God before everything else, love becomes contingent, whereas any Divine Quality must necessarily be Absolute.

Thomas
 
Jesus always existed as the word with god as god. god was made manifest through the holy spirit and jesus was born to the virgin mary, but he is not created like man was created from dust. this is a christian forum, not a jw forum, so what you say about jesus being a created spirit creature can be very offensive to some people here, such as myself, who acknowledge him as the eternal son of god.
stick to the bible and we cant go wrong.thats what JW like to do . then they can be a follower of christ Jesus ,which is a christian. listening to Jesus is the way to go.
(Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him."
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3 yes Jesus taught in the right way . only the truth about his father Jehovah . we dont need as christians to add anything else to the pure word of God the bible .Jesus taught the truth ,and the false religious leaders did not like the truth . and anyone who follows Jesus, and follows what Jesus taught ,will not be liked by false religious leaders. nothing changes does it. sticking to the bible like JW do is the way to go.:)
 
ticking to the bible like JW do is the way to go.
the one that anonymous watchtower people rewrote stripping jesus from being the word of god, with god, as god... no thanks, I'll pass.
 
Love is Trinitarian.

+++



Thomas
And we ourselves have come to know and have believed the love that God has in our case.​
God is love, and he that remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him. 1 JOHN 4;16 Yes the bible tells us that God is love and the bible also tells us the personal name of this God of love in Psalm 83;18
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,​
You alone are the Most High over all the earth................. no the bible does not teach a trinity God ,the trinity is a greek
philosophical term ,but Jehovah the true God, he is the true God and (he causes to become) and he did that by making his first-born son the word,

He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love1john 4;8
 
...the bible tells us that God is love and the bible also tells us the personal name of this God of love in Psalm 83;18
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth...​


this personal name of god that is yahweh, that is god interacting personally with man is through the son and through the spirit. there is no personal saviour other than the love of god that is made manifest in jesus christ, and we are spiritually reborn through the spirit if we accept jesus as lord, which allows us to come to the father. you cannot seperate the personal saviour jesus from yahweh, they are the one true living god. god has proclaimed his son's name from the beginning, the son's name is above all names.
 
Well, this might sound a bit philosophical, but me...

Did man invent 'love'?

I don't think so. But it would seem, from my tradition, and I think we can agree on this, that whatever 'love' is, 'God' is.

Greetings Thomas,
I think man invented his own definition of it. But of course, Man did not invent love.

Thomas said:
Therefore I think love is in the nature of God. God is Love.

Yes.....

Thomas said:
But here's a problem ...

Love cannot exist in a vacuum. Love is a meaningless abstract, unless there is someone who loves, and someone who is loved. And when you have a lover and the loved, they are both equally aware of the love they have for the other.

So you have the Lover, the Loved, and the Love between them.

Love is Trinitarian.

Not true...... May only be a problem for you. It may be abstract but Love is an essence, 'a state of being' and requires no subject/object relationship. God is love and was around long before you or anything created existed. You as an object are not a requirement for love. The word 'vacuum is meaningless to God. Love always was, is, and shall be because it exists outside of time.

Thomas said:
God the Father is Himself-in-Himself
(the Ground of Eckhart) – the Is-ness of God (This is where Eckhart is fundamentally not Zen – Buddhism is non-theistic, Eckhart is Absolute God, beyond all and any distinction – Zen sees it as a void, Christianity sees it as a fullness)

Perhaps defined differently but perhaps not different except in your mind.

Thomas said:
God the Son is His awareness of Himself
The Mind of God (eg 'Arche' or 'Logos' or 'Verbum')

God the Holy Spirit – is how God determines Himself.

Without this – without Love as Divine Principle operating over and above any created instance – love is just a chemistry, a necessity of instinct, to which out of sentimentalism we attribute certain fantastic properties.

Good theology, but theology is not truth.


Thomas said:
If God is Love, and the nature of God is not conditional on creation, Creation exists because God loves, not because God loves what exists – that is not necessarily the case – otherwise God is 'obliged' to love me, regardless of what I say or do, which would render God as some obsequious thing, a Uriah Heep-like being ...

God loves because that is his nature. And God does love you regardless of what you say or do. Love is. It is unconditional. You may not be aware of the presence of Love but it is there whether you recognize it or not. Your recognition of that Love is not a pre-requisite of God's existence or the existance and presence of unconditional love.

Thomas said:
That man can love, a gift of God, palls into insignificance in the face of the truth that he exists and is loved ... the love we can share with another, or the love we can offer God, is as nothing in the face of God's love.

God's Love, and God's Mercy, does not render his Justice invalid – mercy without justice is obsequiousness again ...
You can offer God nothing. He already has possesion of everything. Love is his nature and it can be experienced but you do not create it to give. It already exists everywhere. You can share that presence with others but you don't create it. Justice is built in the divine order of this world and mercy is the catalyst that renders it of no effect. As you give of mercy it becomes your justice.

Thomas said:
The above is the necessary pre-existing and metaphysical principle by which 'love' can be conceived as Divine or Holy. Without it, without a notion of love 'in' God before everything else, love becomes contingent, whereas any Divine Quality must necessarily be Absolute.

Thomas

No comment.
 
JosephM said:
You can offer God nothing. He already has possesion of everything.
Why do you state this with authority? I could understand why a person might say it by assuming omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc... but I submit that it is very wrong to say: omni-possession.

A gift is a gift... I'm not going to reject it. I am sure that dark opinions will form, but I say it with zero malice or disrespect to the creator. I will simply own the next few seconds in a given space and a given time. It is surely a gift but I will possess it and spend it. I author something with a free-will. As an example, I have not designed any cars in this universe but when I drive one I possess it.
 
I can't quite explain it, but I suppose I believe simultaneously in the trinity and in the One God. And this is not the same as just believing in the trinity forming one God.

It is the relationship aspect, as Thomas points out, that I think is truth in the trinity. Christianity was not the first religion to have the idea of a triplicate or triune deity, and I do think the fundamental concept of one, other, and relationship in between speaks to a deep spiritual truth.

If God is Love, yes- the Love itself is God, yet it implies a relationship. It is not to say that God cannot exist as One, just as Love itself, but that the implication is there that there is a "we-ness" to God that allows that Love to eternally be expressed.

To define Love itself is problematic, because while some think it is an essence or feeling, others, including myself, think it is at least as much an action verb as a noun, which requires an object, even if it is just the self.

Yet underneath the "we-ness" of God, the same "we-ness" that is present in Genesis when God (in plural form) says that they create man in their image, there is also the One. The One is the the We and yet, in my experience, it is much easier to say "God in three Persons, blessed trinity" than it is to really grasp it mentally once it is experienced.

For this reason, I would hesitate to say that I believe in any other than the One God. And yet, I have myself experienced this One God in the form of Creator, Christ, and Spirit, and the experiences have been quite different. Further, these have included masculine, feminine, and neuter/non-gendered (and even non-human) representations of such in my own visions and dreams, so even the three persons are, at least in on my spiritual path, clearly non-gendered and quite beyond human understanding.

Therein lies the mystery of the Godhead, and I believe that is really the point. The reason for the mystery is to give us a sense of... mystery. I don't think it is a puzzle to be solved, to determine the rules by which God can be simultaneously One and yet more than one. Rather, I think it is a truth to be experienced, to keep us in awe of God and to remind us of our limitations in mental capacity to understand God. A way to bring us back to the foundation of our faith- our experience of and relationship to God. And, perhaps, a glimpse of what we should be striving for as Christians- a harmony between ourselves and other beings such that we, too, become simultaneously one and yet many and so that, with the indwelling of the Spirit, we become self and yet not-self, pouring out our own egos so that we can be filled with the Spirit.
 
the one that anonymous watchtower people rewrote stripping jesus from being the word of god, with god, as god... no thanks, I'll pass.
the pure word of God is the way to go with no tradtions of man to cloud the thought.............yes please;)
 


this personal name of god that is yahweh, that is god interacting personally with man is through the son and through the spirit. there is no personal saviour other than the love of god that is made manifest in jesus christ, and we are spiritually reborn through the spirit if we accept jesus as lord, which allows us to come to the father. you cannot seperate the personal saviour jesus from yahweh, they are the one true living god. god has proclaimed his son's name from the beginning, the son's name is above all names.


yes ,Jesus plays a very big part in the out working of Jehovahs purpose for the earth.
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. John 3;16-17 and when Jesus has done everything that his father Jehovah wants to be done ,Jesus will hand the kingdom back to his father.
Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] "subjected all things under his feet." But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone...1 corinthians 15; 24-28 yes Jesus plays a very big part in bringing paradise condtions back to the earth, and the last enemy will be death itself will be got rid of ............ yes, taking in knowledge about Jehovah and Jesus leads to everlasting life as Jesus himself told us
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3
 
Hi Path_of_One –

It is the relationship aspect ... that I think is truth in the trinity.
So do I.

Christianity was not the first religion to have the idea of a triplicate or triune deity, and I do think the fundamental concept of one, other, and relationship in between speaks to a deep spiritual truth.

I think Christianity plumbs this relationship to the absolute (human) limit – in its very principle. This is what sets the Christian Trinity apart from all other triunes in my book.

The Jews were the first religion, I think, to rteally get to grips with the relationship between the human and the Divine – if you compare the myths of Judaism to their contemporaries, the Flood for instance, then the theology of the Jews just leaves everything else in kindergarden. They managed to see God as absolutely Immanent and absolutely Transcendant without contradiction.

+++

I was looking at semiotics last night, and one wiki entry spoke of 'triunes everywhere' ...

+++

To define Love itself is problematic, because while some think it is an essence or feeling, others, including myself, think it is at least as much an action verb as a noun, which requires an object, even if it is just the self.

Oh Yes! (Jumps up and down with excitement) We cannot really know, comprehend, understand (etc.) God as noun ... as a thing, an entity, precisely because God is beyond all and any determination or condition...

But as a dynamism ... that is the Mystery of the Divine Name JHWH – 'I am' – it's a dynamic name, from the verb 'to be'.

The Theology of the Trinity plunges into the Principle according to Itself, the Mystery from which all else flows.

Thomas
 
Why do you state this with authority? I could understand why a person might say it by assuming omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc... but I submit that it is very wrong to say: omni-possession.

A gift is a gift... I'm not going to reject it. I am sure that dark opinions will form, but I say it with zero malice or disrespect to the creator. I will simply own the next few seconds in a given space and a given time. It is surely a gift but I will possess it and spend it. I author something with a free-will. As an example, I have not designed any cars in this universe but when I drive one I possess it.

Cyberpi,

Yes, I did state it with authority as you perceive. I make no excuses and stand by what I said. God is complete, in need of nothing, and in possesion of all things. I understand that all may not grasp that statement at their present understanding and I have no problem with that. No offence was given.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
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