Glossolalia

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Snoopy

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Hi,

"New figures out today show a rise in the number of Pentecostal churches, and with it the practice of speaking in tongues."

contd>>>Faith or fake? - Times 2 - Times Online

An attempt to examine what goes on in the brains of people when "speaking in tongues"...

Faith or fake?

s.
 
Hey, Snoop (may I call you that? It's actually a compliment!)

I haven't read the article you posted yet, but I just wanted you to know that I have been reading all about the ongoing rift (yes, another rift) among the various divisions of my beloved Baptists over all of this! Interesting....

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
Hey, Snoop (may I call you that? It's actually a compliment!)

I haven't read the article you posted yet, but I just wanted you to know that I have been reading all about the ongoing rift (yes, another rift) among the various divisions of my beloved Baptists over all of this! Interesting....

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...


Though I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, I explored various churches, including many Pentacostal/Charistmatic churches. Now understand that tongues is a no-no in the mainline Baptist churches, but imagine my surprise when I visited a Baptist church in Ventura, CA back in the mid-eighties that was charismatic. I was told the unusual story of how they got that way.

It seems it started out as a mainline Baptist church. The pastor, however, had been suffering some excruciating back pain and nothing seemed to help it, so at the invitation of a friend, he attended a healing service, and ended up getting healed!

Well, from then on, he started studying the gifts of the Spirit and begun bringing that teaching into the church. Naturally, many members were upset. About half of them ended up leaving.

But the kicker is that that pastor continued in that teaching and his congregation grew to over twice as many members as he originally had as a "normal" Baptist church.
 
Hey, Dondi--

Yup--quite a controversy! It has even gotten to the point where some are saying that it isn't okay in private worship, much less public. I do understand the reasoning behind both sides, but I am not involved in that battle. I was surely surprised, though!

I have a friend who is not affiliated with any particular religious organization, and she has shared some things with me concerning worship language. I know her very well, and have no reason whatsoever to doubt her. It all had to do with the healing of her little boy. Wow.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Dondi said:
...started ..as a mainline Baptist church. The pastor, .. suffering some excruciating back pain..he attended a healing service, and ended up getting healed!

Well, from then on, he started studying the gifts of the Spirit and begun bringing that teaching into the church. ...members were upset. About half of them ended up leaving.... his congregation grew to over twice as many members...
Click to expand...
Always interesting the ways of spirit....and the fact that their are two sides to the coin...there will be those that say it is sacrilige, not our way...and yet, the results, and the number of people that come when the pastor finds his calling...
 
Hello All:

I've read in several places and heard on NPR that speaking in tongues is sweeping African Pentacostal Churches by storm. In fact, in many communities, one is excluded from normal social interactions if they do not participate and exhibit the ability to do so. This would certainly seem to encourage fakery IMO.

Here's something interesting that I found in a Nov. 7 article in the NYTimes. It seems that researchers at the University of Pennsylvania took brain scans of five women while they were speaking in tongues. The frontal lobes, the part of the brain that controls what people do (the willful part), were relatively quiet as were the language centers.

The regions of the brain that are involved in maintaining self-consciousness were shown to be active. In other words, the brain scan images seem to support what the people say...that G-d is talking through them.

A researcher summed it up by stating that practitioners, while mindful of their circumstances, still seem to cede some control over their bodies and emotions.

Should we be leery of the fact the the root of Pentacostal is "penta" ? Just thinking out loud again.

flow....;)
 
flowperson said:
Should we be leery of the fact the the root of Pentacostal is "penta" ? Just thinking out loud again.
Click to expand...

Hey, flow--not unless we apply the same to, oh say, the "Pentateuch"? I wouldn't worry. :)

It just refers to "five" or "fifty", right?

InPeace,
InLove
 
LOL--I wasn't sure! And, what do you mean, bad habits??? :D

Seriously, though--I think there is a lot of room for fakery in this area, and I think it probably happens quite frequently. I have tended to believe that after the Pentecost, there was no longer a purpose for speaking in tongues. And I tend to think that the believers that day simply spoke in foreign languages they did not know in order to spread the message. However, I have come to reconsider some of this. I think perhaps there are different ways this may happen, and for different reasons. I have never experienced it myself, but I am not inclined anymore to totally dismiss the idea that it can still happen.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Hi InLove:

I was referring to MY obvious bad habits. As far as I've seen and observed you possess none that I'm aware of, but then one only has to go back and recite the old fable regarding what boys and girls are made of to realize the basic differences. I'm still learning you see.

Go back and look at the brain wave info I edited in after your post. It pretty well convinces me that the phenomenon is "real", but of course, reality may always be imitated for effect.

One of the basic philosophical questions that started me on my writing addiction is one that I believe will determine our fate in the 21st century and beyond. How does one determine what is real and what is artificial ? Is there really a difference at the basic material levels of reality, and if there isn't what's the big deal anyway (as Seinfeld would say) ?

flow....;)
 
Flow--

I don't buy all that stuff about girls and boys--I had 2 girls, and I know for sure there are at least some puppy dog tails there. :) So what's the deal?

Yes--I read your post again. Interesting--no evidence of normal brain-to-speech patterns? (I know that my phrasing is rather awkward there, but hopefully you know what I'm trying to say.)

I agree with you about the levels of reality. I have always wondered about this. To me, what I call "the spiritual" is just as real (if not more so) than what is usually referred to as "the physical". I have noticed your posts often point to something along this school of thought. When I look back at history, I think there have been times when this concept has been more in the forefront of our collective conscience than at others, and I think that it is certainly quite relevant to the present. Maybe more than ever.

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
Hey, Snoop (may I call you that? It's actually a compliment!)

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...

Hi InLove,

Of course! It seems to be occurring naturally; like erosion of a pebble; until all that is left is

s.
 
flowperson said:
It pretty well convinces me that the phenomenon is "real", but of course, reality may always be imitated for effect.
Click to expand...

Hi,

It may be real, but what is the cause? What is the horse and what is the cart? Are they even connected? OK, I'm going straight onto de-caff I promise.

s.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hey s (name erosion-even the little dot has been swept away over time)

Snoopy said:
It may be real, but what is the cause? What is the horse and what is the cart? Are they even connected? OK, I'm going straight onto de-caff I promise.
Click to expand...

I don't have any traditional scientific explanations, although there may be some out there. I can only give you what I understand from the Biblical accounts.

The second chapter of Acts gives the account of Pentecost, which (if I'm not mistaken) is said to have occurred fifty days after the ascension of the Christ. Jesus had promised His disciples that He would send "a comforter" to show them what to do in His physical absence. He had instructed them to wait until that time, and then they would know how to continue. On that day, the believers were gathered together in prayer, and the Holy Spirit descended upon them, and they spoke in languages they had never learned. Jerusalem was a multi-cultured place, and therefore many different languages were spoken there. According to the account, many people heard the Gospel that day in their own languages. Many Christians today believe that this was a one-time event, and the purpose of speaking in tongues has past. I don't think I agree with that idea (anymore).

One reason I re-examined the issue is because later on in Acts 19, there is an account of Paul healing someone by the laying on of hands in prayer and petition, resulting not only in physical healing, but in the response from the "patient" who proceeded to speak in an unknown language in praise and thanksgiving. I don't know whether this was simply an earthly language with which the person was unfamiliar, possibly for the benefit of observers, or if it was another type of spiritual language.

In Corinthians, chapters 12 and 13, Paul expounds on the concept of speaking in tongues. His take seems to be that if there is no interpreter around to tell others what is being said, then perhaps it would be better to refrain from this activity in public. He seems to separate "prophesying" from "speaking in tongues". He does call it a gift, but he also says it has no worth if it is not practiced in love and toward the edification of others. But I am not sure that even Paul could quite nail all this down, even though I think that for the times he lived in, he did what he was given to do by the same Spirit.

Another reason I took a second look at the subject has to do with my friend that I mentioned in an above post. I have known her for a long time, and she is not given to nonsense (well--not in matters such as this, anyway:)) She is one of the most honest people I have ever met, and she doesn't align herself with any particular religion, although she does believe in God and loves Jesus. I remember when her son was critically ill and the doctors could not figure out what was wrong. Her husband had grown up in the Lutheran tradition (which I don't think is usually keen on speaking in tongues--I might be wrong). Out of desperation, they took the little boy to the clergy at the local Lutheran church, and these folks prayed and laid hands on him--in private. The boy (my godson) was completely well within 24 hours. Coincidence? Anyway, she was so very thankful for this, and about a week after all this happened, she was just going about her business in the kitchen, contemplating the wonder of it and thanking God in her heart. She said that all of a sudden, the most beautiful words she has ever heard came out from her. She wasn't afraid, but somewhat surprised. She ran out to her husband in the yard, and said something to him in that language. And then it stopped. It has never happened since. So, you know--I gotta think that perhaps there is still a purpose for it.

I think that so far, science has managed only to relate glossolalia to a kind of self-imposed trance. But I think that sometimes our understanding of science is limited. I think we just don't understand the science of The Spirit.;)

Anyway--that's my take on the "horse and cart" (and I don't even have any coffee this morning!:eek: . Hope it is somewhat helpful.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Hi--apparently it is too late to edit my last post. The references to Corinthians--that's I Corinthians. Sorry about the omission there.

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
...Her husband had grown up in the Lutheran tradition (which I don't think is usually keen on speaking in tongues--I might be wrong). Out of desperation, they took the little boy to the clergy at the local Lutheran church, and these folks prayed and laid hands on him--in private.
Click to expand...

Oh no, you are soooooo right - coming as I do from a long line of professional Lutherans, I can pretty authoritatively say that Lutherans don't go in for that sort of thing. Speaking in tongues, that is. I don't recall a concrete reason ever being given, though I could ask my mom or uncle if anyone really wants the Lutheran theological basis. The idea I picked up was that it's sort of undignified, and the suspicion is that it's done just to prove to observers how Spirit-filled one is. (I personally don't agree with this statement - at least not anymore.)
I have heard of a few other instances where Lutherans have done laying on of hands for the purpose of healing - they've also always been in private, never during a church service. I think it has to do with the "praying in a closet" passage in the Bible.

My only (and very odd) experience with a glossolalist: Once when I worked in a department store, a man whose purchases I was ringing up said to me (I don't remember how it came up, but I think it was kind of out of the blue) that if I'd never spoken in tongues I had never really experienced the Spirit. When I politely disagreed he told me I needed to reread the Bible. I just thought it was a really odd conversation to start with your cashier.

Side story which I think is cool - a (Lutheran) church I briefly attended during college had a tradition for Pentecost Sunday - they rounded up everyone in the church who spoke a foreign language and during the point in the service where the passage from Acts is read, it was simultaneously read in as many different foreign languages as possible.
 
Does anyone here think that this might be a mythical carryover from the Tower of Babel story ?

Remember that the point of the myth was to demonstrate that the spirit descends to separate the people in understanding by making them speak in differing languages.

Maybe this happens as a universal spiritual phenomenon from time to time and the myth of it is the only continuity factor here that carries forward in time.

flow....:)
 
flowperson said:
Does anyone here think that this might be a mythical carryover from the Tower of Babel story ?

Remember that the point of the myth was to demonstrate that the spirit descends to separate the people in understanding by making them speak in differing languages.

Maybe this happens as a universal spiritual phenomenon from time to time and the myth of it is the only continuity factor here that carries forward in time.

flow....:)
Click to expand...


I've thought about this, too. But there is one gleeming difference.

The Tower of Babel incident served to confound people. It caused the work on the tower to cease because of a language barrier, and everyone thus scattered.

Pentacost, however, brought people together and everyone understood in their own language.

Now for a geek caveat. There was a Star Trek (The Original Series) episode where this happened where they meet this alien who spoke to them over the open channel. Kirk heard it in English, Chekov in Russian, Sulu in Japanese, Spock in Vulcanese, and Uhura in Swahali. I believe that this is similiar to what happened at Pentacost.
 
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