Birth of the Baha'u'llah

Discussion in 'Baha'i' started by Postmaster, Dec 20, 2006.

  1. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    Did anything significant happen during his birth? Any astronomical coincidences? Any wise men come to visit? Was anyone other then the Bab and his followers expecting him? Any proof of this? This is a sincere question.
     
  2. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    The Bab wasn't there. The Bab was two years younger than Baha`u'llah. (The Bab was born in 1819, Baha`u'llah in 1817. This does match a Shi'ih prophecy of the Mihdi saying "I am two years younger than my Master.)

    Hand of the Cause, William Sears wrote two books about the mystic and historical aspects of the advent of the Bab and Baha`u'llah and both discuss the comets of 1843 and 1846:
    "This appearance is reported in Our First Century as follows: 'The
    Comet of 1843 is regarded as perhaps the most marvelous of the
    present age, having been observed in the daytime even before it was
    visible at night -- passing very near the sun, exhibiting an enormous
    length of tail; and arousing interest in the public mind as
    universal and deep as it is was unprecedented.'
    The New York Tribune, and the American Journal of Science devoted
    special sections to this great comet of 1843, the Journal of
    Science identifying i in those very words: 'The Great Comet of
    1843.'
    I found an even more dramatic story told in the heavens during
    this same period. It was the story of still another comet. It was
    seen in the skies in 1845. It appeared to be quite an ordinary
    comet in a year in which some 300 comets had appeared. It had been
    studied many times in the past. In 1846, the comet was still
    visible.
    However, at this period in its history, it became one of the rare
    comets of history. It was now entering what were to be the last
    dramatic moments of its life. It was called Biela's comet, after
    the original discoverer. The Encyclopedia Americana (1944 ed.)
    gives the following account of this event: 'It was found again late
    in November 1845, and in the following month an observation was
    made of one of the most remarkable phenomena in astronomical
    records, the division of the comet. It put forth no tail while this
    alteration was going on. Professor Challis, using the
    Northumberland telescope at Cambridge, on January 15th, 1846, was
    inclined to distrust his eyes or his glass when he beheld two
    comets where but one had been before. He would call it, he said,
    a binary (twin) comet if such a thing had ever been heard of
    before. His observations were soon verified, however.'
    Sir James Jeans has written of this same comet, saying: 'The most
    interesting story is that of Biela's comet which broke in two while
    under observation in 1846.' [Through Space and Time, Sir James
    Jeans, 1934, p. 154.]
    Professor Challis was wrong. It was not the only binary comet
    in history, just as Sirius was not the only double-star, nor the
    Star of Bethlehem the only bright star, or novae, or conjunction
    of planets in astronomical history. It was not the uniqueness of
    the event that made it important in prophecy, but its remarkable
    timing.
    Biela's comet disappeared in 1846. It returned in August, 1852.
    This was the very month and year in which Bahá'u'lláh was cast into
    an underground prison in Teheran. It was the beginning of the
    forty years of his Mission which ended in Israel in 1892 with his
    death; the forty years foretold by Micah during which God would
    show to the Messiah 'wonderful things'.
    The year 1852 was also the beginning of the year 1269 of the
    Persian calendar. It was the ninth year following the Báb's
    prophecy concerning the coming of Bahá'u'lláh. The Báb had
    written,
    'In the year nine ye will attain unto all good...in the year nine
    ye shall attain unto the presence of God.' [Epistle to the Son of
    the Wolf, p. 141.]
    When the single comet which had now become a twin comet
    reappeared in August 1852, one half had receded far into the
    background. The other half now dominated the sky. So the Báb, the
    Herald of Bahá'u'lláh, had now passed into history through
    martyrdom, and the one whose coming he had foretold, Bahá'u'lláh,
    had now assumed his Mission.
    An account of the reappearance of the comet states: 'Late in
    August 1852, the larger came into view and three weeks later the
    smaller one, now much fainter than its former companion.'
    [Encyclopedia Americana,1944 ed., Vol. iii, p. 690.]
    Sir James Jeans confirms this, saying that in 1852, the two
    pieces were one and a half million miles apart.
    Bahá'u'lláh has written of that hour when the twin-comets rode
    the skies. He laid chained in an underground prison. Of that
    moment, he has said:
    'lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious (God) were wafted over Me,
    and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is
    not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He
    bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven....' [God Passes
    By, p. 102.]"
    (William Sears, Thief in the Night)

    Take it for what you will.

    As to remarkable childhoods, the early years of both are discussed in some detail in Dawnbreakers.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  3. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Hello Postmaster!

    Baha'u'llah was born on November 12, 1817 and few years before the birth of the Bab....

    About that time of year the Leonid meterior shower occurs and in the nineteenth century it was particularly pronounced... Not every "shower" is as visible... The symbology of the meteors or stars falling has been suggested to symbolize the fall of the previous ecclesiastical establishment in the heaven of religion.

    Also in the lunar calendar the bithdays of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are a day apart.

    What people were expecting at the time though in Shiah Islam was the Return of the Twelfth Imam which we believed was fulfilled by the Bab and the appearance of the Qayyum which was like a messianic expectation not unlike the preparation for the Christ in expecting Messiah and the expected Return of Christ which many Christians believed would occur around 1844.

    On p. 112 of the Dawn Breakers the following is related by a Mujtahid after Baha'u'llah visited his school:

    Later on, when Baha'u'llah had departed, the mujtahid related to his disciples two of his recent dreams, the circumstances of which he believed were of the utmost significance.

    "In my first dream," he said, "I was standing in the midst of a vast concourse of people, all of whom seemed to be pointing to a certain house in which they said the Sahibu'z-Zaman dwelt. Frantic with joy, I hastened in my dream to attain His presence. When I reached the house, I was, to my great surprise, refused admittance. `The promised Qa'im,' I was informed, `is engaged in private conversation with another Person. Access to them is strictly forbidden.' From the guards who were standing beside the door, I gathered that that Person was none other than Baha'u'llah.

    "In my second dream," the mujtahid continued, "I found myself in a place where I beheld around me a number of coffers, each of which, it was stated, belonged to Baha'u'llah. As I opened them, I found them to be filled with books. Every word and letter recorded in these books was set with the most
    exquisite jewels. Their radiance dazzled me. I was so overpowered by their brilliance that I awoke suddenly from my dream."


    From "Baha'u'llah and the New Era":

    Birth and Early Life


    Mirza Husayn Ali, Who afterwards assumed the title of Baha'u'llah (i.e. Glory of God), was the eldest son of Mirza Abbas of Nur, a Vazir or Minister of State. His family was wealthy and distinguished, many of its members having occupied important positions in the Government and in the Civil and Military Services of Persia. He was born in Tihran (Teheran), the capital city of Persia, between dawn and sunrise on the 12th of November, 1817.

    He never attended school or college, and what little teaching He received was given at home. Nevertheless, even as a child He showed wonderful wisdom and knowledge. While He was still a youth His father died, leaving Him responsible for the care of His younger brothers and sisters, and for the management of the extensive family estates.

    On one occasion Abdu'l-Baha, the eldest son of Baha'u'llah, related to the writer the following particulars about His Father's early days: --

    From childhood He was extremely kind and generous. He was a great lover of outdoor life, most of His time being spent in the garden or the fields. He had an extraordinary power of attraction, which was felt by all. People always crowded around Him. Ministers and people of the Court would surround Him, and the children also were devoted to Him.

    When He was only thirteen of fourteen years old He became renowned for His learning. He would converse on any subject and solve any problem presented to Him. In large gatherings He would discuss matters with the Ulama (leading mullas) and would explain intricate religious questions. All of them used to listen to Him with the greatest interest.

    When Baha'u'llah was twenty-two years old, His father died, and the Government wished Him to succeed to His father's position in the Ministry, as was customary in Persia, but Baha'u'llah did not accept the offer. Then the Prime Minister said:

    "Leave him to himself. Such a position is unworthy of him. He has some higher aim in view. I cannot understand him, but I am convinced that he is destined for some lofty career. His thought are not like ours. Let him alone."



    From the Dawn Breakers p. 119 of Nabil's Narrative:

    When Baha'u'llah was still a child, the Vazir, His father, dreamed a dream. Baha'u'llah appeared to him swimming in a vast, limitless ocean. His body shone upon the waters with a radiance that illumined the sea. Around His head, which could distinctly be seen above the waters, there radiated, in all directions, His long, jet-black locks, floating in great profusion above the waves. As he dreamed, a multitude of fishes gathered round Him, each holding fast to the extremity of one hair. Fascinated by the effulgence of His face, they followed Him in whatever direction He swam. Great as was their number, and however firmly they clung to His locks, not one single hair seemed to have been detached from His head, nor did the least injury affect His person. Free and unrestrained, He moved above the waters and they all followed Him.

    The Vazir, greatly impressed by this dream, summoned a soothsayer, who had achieved fame in that region, and asked him to interpret it for him. This man, as if inspired by a premonition of the future glory of Baha'u'llah, declared:

    "The limitless ocean that you have seen in your dream, O
    Vazir, is none other than the world of being. Single-handed and alone, your son will achieve supreme ascendancy over it. Wherever He may please, He will proceed unhindered. No one will resist His march, no one will hinder His progress. The multitude of fishes signifies the turmoil which He will arouse amidst the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Around Him will they gather, and to Him will they cling. Assured of the unfailing protection of the Almighty, this tumult will never harm His person, nor will His loneliness upon the sea of life endanger His safety."

    Additional information about the early life of Baha'u'llah can be found at

    The Birth of Baha'u'llah


    So these are some of the portends and dreams reported.

    - Art
     
  4. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    I'm especially interested in the The Millerite Prediction Baha'i Beliefs on the Return of Jesus Christ

    The star of Bethlehem was even recorded by ancient Chinese astronomers. I'm just wondering how significant these comets coming and going during the lives of the Bab and Baha'u'llah really were. As there has been bigger and greater ones after there lives.
     
  5. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    How strange.. Last night I had a dream that I was in Cyprus (my parents home land) and i was traveling in the car with with my cousin. We past a very old house with the words Baha'i faith engraved in brick on top of the door. I realised it was a historical building and asked my cousin if he was interested in buying the property with me and restorating it. We went out about fixing it up, in which he fell out of window and injured himself in the process.

    This morning reading through Baha'i Beliefs on the Return of Jesus Christ

    I seen this phrase
    A group known as the German Templars sold their worldly possessions, moved to the Holy Land, and set up housekeeping on Mt. Carmel, with the words "God is nigh" emblazoned over their doors. (The colony is now being restored as part of the Bahá'í WorldCenter.) And there are many more examples.

    and made me remember my dream. First time I came across the information.
     
  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    The 'star' was, from the point of view of the Magi (who were Zoroastrian philosophers and considered magicians--we even draw the word 'magic' from the Magi) not a star or a single light, but the entrance into a new Zodiacal age, their own sacred writings led them to Palestine. 'Following the star' was following the Zodiacal prediction concerning the Constellation ruling the throne of Israel.

    This is not to say there wasn't a comet, or a conjunction of planets or the light of a distant nova in the sky at the time. There probably was, but that was a small sign of a greater change in the heavens to the Magi.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  7. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    Magi in Greek translates to magician/s in English. I'm all too aware of the 3 wise men being of Zoroastrian origin.
    Yep there must have been a comet, but it must have been significant enough for the Chinese to write about it at that time in history?

    I guess secretly I'm a Baha'i, but when it seems like im attacking the faith, I’m infact attacking all religions in general. Simply because they are made to be more romantic then they come across. That’s not to say that significant, meaningful, spiritual events don't happen, it’s that all the bad stuff seems to be forgotten, and the lies were made to believe. Like Christianity, we have Paul’s (Greek name) version of the bible? Whereas Im sure if we had Johns (Hebrew name) version it would have been much less romantic, maybe less anti-Semitic too. John probably had a more accurate version, since he was Jesus brother. Yet my faith in the bible is 100%.

    And just as Christianity it seems as history rhymes itself we have the same effect in the Baha'i faith. Baha'i awareness im sure exposes some of these truths.
     
  8. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    I find it interesting about you Cyprus dream. Were you aware that Famagusta might have been the location of Baha`u'llah's incarceration? As it was when the Sultan sent Baha`u'llah to Akka, he also sent Mirza Yahya (Subhi-Azal) to Famagusta. The Sultan intended to send Baha`u'llah to Akka by Himself, but baha`u'llah paid His own family's way to Akka rather than take the Sultan's money for the trip to gaol. A small number of Mirza Yahya's followers were sent with Baha`u'llah's entourage to keep informers available and two of the Baha`i's were sent with Subhi Azal to Famagusta.

    Mirza Yahya finally passed away, alone and without any followers to tend his burial, so he was put in a pauper's grave with an Islamic service (see: http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=ridvan_death_mirza_yahya for the relavant document translated and published by E. G. Browne).

    It seems 'Baha`i Awareness' has shut down or imranshaykh has temporarily put it on hiatus pending his return from the Haj. Wikipedia decided to delete its link to Baha`i Awareness as being non-authoritative on the Baha`i faith.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  9. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    Yes I was aware of Cyprus being part of Baha'i history, I'am 3rd generation Greek Cypriot living in the UK. Were from the south legitimate state. But I dont think my dream has anything to do with that, I think it is more to do with the information I read in the morning as I pointed out, maybe some clarification that its correct. But who knows. Its not the only dream I've had regarding this faith. Some of the Baha'is sent to Cyprus one of them converted to Christianity?
     
  10. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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  11. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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  12. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Baha'i

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    Hi again!

    For the record, this is a common fallacy:

    The number of Magi / "wise men" is unknown.

    All scripture records is that there were three gifts.

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  13. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    i knew that :) christ got 3 gifts from them so it was always assumed there was 3. very true And te night they were going to leave, one of them had a dream warning them of a plot to be captured by the king. And they took an other path. great stroy.
     
  14. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Dear Scott:

    Hope all is well.

    Can the Bahais produce any documentary proof from any Shiite book for the saying quoted above.

    Regards
    Imran
     
  15. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    The date of His birth confirmed the truth of the saying attributed to the Imam Ali, the Commander of the Faithful: "I am two years younger than my Lord." The mystery of this utterance, however, remained unrevealed except to those who sought and recognised the truth of the new Revelation.

    From the Dawn Breakers translated by Shoghi Effendi

    The saying is attributed to the Imam Ali...so apparently is based on a Hadith.

    - Art
     
  16. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    You can find a reference to it as follows I think...maybe someone has a more refined answer...

    Al‑Hujub wa Khulasatu 'l‑Kutub (The Veils and Quintessence of Books), containing a study of the ayah: "Then thrust him into a chain the length of which is seventy cubits" (69:32), an expla­nation of the saying of the Prophet, "There are seventy thousand veils of light and darkness before God...", and a comparison of these two statements. Such a comparison presents considerable difficulties, especially with regard to the whole sum and its parts, with regard to the parallel drawn between the Qur'an and the Prophetic traditions and with regard to the phrases "a thousand years," "five thousand years" and "three hundred thousand years"; such metaphors are similar to the statement of one of the great shaykhs: "I am two years younger than my Lord", and that of another: "Between myself and my Lord there is no differ­ence except that I come first in the state of slavery."

    Source:

    Inner Secrets of the Path
     
  17. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    With many thanks to my friend Kazeh Fananapazir:

    The Hadith attributed to the Imam Ali: I am two years younger than my master.



    I can find some reference to it at http://www.al-islam.org/innersecretsofthepath/1.htm

    but would like proper provenance if available.



    Thanks in advance,

    Scott




    The Hadith is quoted:
    In number One
    In the Bih.aarul-Anwaar [=Oceans of Lights] by Mulla Muh.ammad Baaqir al-Majlisi in his 38th Volume

    ÈÍÇÑ ÇáÇäæÇÑ : 38

    after quoting the Hadith [ana as.gharu min Rabbee be-sanatyan] the author wonders if this is a reference to the passing away of the Imam ‘Ali two years younger than Muh.ammad His Master.
    والحق أنه قبض عليه السلام بعد ما دخل في السنة الرابعة والستين كما ان النبى صلوات الله عليه قبض وقد دخل في السنة السادسة والستين ولذلك يقول عن نفسه عليه السلام ( أنا أصغر من ربى بسنتين ) يعنى عن استاذه ومعلمه محمد صلوات الله عليه

    It is quoted again
    Here:

    In Sayyid H.aydar al-Amuli’s *Nas.s.sun-Nus.suus.* = ana aqallu min Rabbee be-Sanatayn *I am younger than my Lord by two years* also in the same text there is this: laysa baynee wa bayna Rabbee farqun [= There is no difference between Me and My Lord], illaa innee taqaddamtu bil-‘ubuudiyyat [= except that I have priority in servitude]

    Sayyid H.aydar al-Amuli exponent of Ibn ‘Arabi died 787 AH/1385 AD [In fact in his major work, the Jami' al-asrar (Compendium of Divine Mysteries), Amuli's main intention is to show that real Sufism and Shi'ism are the same.[ See H. Corbin's introduction to Sayyid Haydar Amuli, La Philosophie Shi'ite, Tehran-Paris, 1969.]

    السيّد حيدر ا لآملي*ّ في* مقدّمات* كتاب* «نصّ النصوص*» ص* 10 : بالشكل* التالي* : كقولهم* : أنَا أَقَلُّ مِنْ رَبِّي* بِسَنَتَيْنِ ، وقولهم* : لَيسَ بَيْنِي* وَبَيْنَ رَبِّي* فَرْقٌ إلاَّ أَ نِّي* تَقَدَّمْتُ بِالعُبُودِيَّةِ
    کتاب معرÙØ© الله / المجلد الثالث/ القسم الثامن: وحدة الوجود، إثبات أصالة الوجود Ùˆ إبطال أصالة الماهیة، بسیط الحقیقة Ú©Ù„ الاشیاء

    and again
    کتاب الله‌ شناسي / جلد سوم / قسمت نهم: اثبات اصالة الوجود، ردّ اصالة الماهیه، دلیل وحدت موجود و ردّ شبهات آن، وجود واجب الوجود


    The DAWN-BREAKERS---Chapter I

    The Bab, whose name was Ali-Muhammad, was born in Shiraz , on the first of Muharram, in the year 1235 A.H. He was the descendant of a house renowned for its nobility, which traced its origin to Muhammad Himself. His father, Siyyid Muhammad-Rida, as well as His mother, were descendants of the Prophet, and belonged to families of recognised standing. The date of His birth confirmed the truth of the saying attributed to the Imam Ali, the Commander of the Faithful: "I am two years younger than my Lord." The mystery of this utterance, however, remained unrevealed except to those who sought and recognised the truth of the new Revelation. It was He, the Bab, who, in His first, His most weighty and exalted Book, revealed this passage concerning Baha'u'llah: "O Thou Remnant of God! I have sacrificed Myself wholly for Thee; I have consented to be cursed for Thy sake; and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient witness unto Me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days!"
     
  18. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Hi Scott:

    Many thanks to you and your friend for the reference. It is in the footnote of Behar vol 38, page 278.

    In an earlier post, you had mentioned that this tradition is a fulfilment of the prophecy of the Mahdi since Bab and Bahaullah were separated by 2 years in BIRTH. This inference is not correct.

    Firstly, the tradition is from Imam Ali which clearly indicates the difference of two years in the age of the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali. Allamah Majlisi in the same footnote mentions that the age of the Holy Prophet was 66 and that of Imam Ali at the time of his martyrdom was 64. It is an acknowledged fact that the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali at their time of their DEATH were apart in age by 2 years.

    So if this tradition were to be applicable to Bab and Bahaullah as the measures are different - one is about being seperated by 2 years in birth - the other is being separated by 2 years in age. In fact the measure of being separated by age does not apply to Bab and Bahaullah for the difference in their ages was more than 2 years (Bab died early, while Bahaullah lived much longer).

    Secondly, nowhere does the tradition mention that it is a prophecy for the Mahdi. Even Allamah Majlisi clarifies that it is an explanation to the difference in the ages of the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali so that the tradition may not be misinterpreted.

    Thirdly, what could be the reason that the Bahais are happy to acknowledge one tradition from amongst thousands in Beharul Anwar and that too which appears in the footnote of volume 38. I will urge you and your friend to refer to volume 51, 52 and 53 of Behar which are about the prophecies about the Mahdi wherein one will find traditions about the Mahdi from 11 Imams and the Holy Prophet of Islam. I have quoted these traditions extensively on my web site. I also have a section of the Bab v/s the Mahdi of Islam which uses traditions from Behar to raise questions about the credibility of the claims of the Bab.

    Is'nt it ironical that one tradition which may "appear" remotely appealing to the Bahais is quoted in all their books including Dawn Breakers. Yet when the issue of traditions is brought up, we are told that traditions could be wrong or altered.

    Warm regards as always
    Imran
     
  19. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    A couple of things Imran is that (1) we Baha'is have more than one Hadith to turn to and I think by now you are probably aware of this ... (2) there is the whole cultural movement in Shiah Islam that anticipates the Mahdi and the Qa'im and history shows that this expectation was particularly strong in the early nineteenth century in Persia and gave rise to Shaykhism of Shaykh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim so this was milieu where the early Babis arose from.

    Books have been written about the expected Qa'im but they are mostly if Farsi or Arabic and you are also aware of these but they are mostly not available in English.

    And since you've mentioned your site again which I have also responded to you that we regard as a prejudiced and biased source I would think by now you would suggest a more impartial, perhaps more academically accepted one.

    - Art
     
  20. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Dear Art:

    Thank you for your response.

    I dont know how your points were connected to what point I had made - which was about the tradition of Imam Ali. Nevertheless, I will respond.

    It will nice to know which "traditions" are accepted by the Bahais. And also more importantly, what are the relevant criteria for the same. As I had mentioned, there are 3 volumes of Beharul Anwar about the Mahdi which detail his genealogy, birth, occultation etc. Yet we are confronted with one tradition which appears in the footnote of volume 38 as a proof for the Mahdi. Why are the rest of these traditions in Beharul Anwar (probably more than 500) not accepted? Is it because they are contrary to the belief of the Bab as the Mahdi?

    As a student of the Bahai faith for long, I am not surprised by this as I myself have raised the issue of the books of the Bab wherein only "selected" writings of the Bab are available. The rest are labelled as alterations or forgeries.

    Secondly, the belief of the Mahdi in Islam , particularly Shiite Islam is not "cultural" as you have mentioned. It is an integral part of Shiite Islam. The Mahdi was spoken about by the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) and then by the succeeding Imams. When you say cultural, you make it sound as if it was something that "just came up", which is not correct.

    I could not understand what was the point about the books being available only in Farsi and Arabic and not that many in English.

    Lastly, you can have your own criteria on whether any web site is prejudiced or not. However I can say with confidence that any web site that questions a concept or a thought process need not be prejudiced - check out whether any of the references from Bahai books are actually there or not or whether they were manufactured. I have mantained for long that if any reference is found to be incorrect, I will be happy to change it.

    Warm regards, as always
    Imran
     

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