Freewill vs Predestination

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Silas, Dec 21, 2006.

  1. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

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    **Before I get into this, I'd like to ask that the Christians who read this pray that you may not be lead into lies of the enemy and thus lead away by false doctrines. Moreover, pray that God would give us grace to speak without aruging on this very tough subject. Finally, pray that you would understand "man apart from Christ" and how utterly wicked and totally depraved he is. I dont expect non-Christians to believe that man is inherently wicked, but I would like to ask you to read this anyway. God's words have a way of having an effect on people. What all that said, lets get into election!**


    Does man choose God or does God choose man?


    Let us get into God's words and see what He has to say about Election. My hopes in this tread is that we can debate using scripture alone (not assumptions or conjecture) and stay within the topic at hand. My question is concerning the basis of election - is it on foreseen faith or wholly by grace, insomuch that God looked upon an equally wicked sinner and chosen in and of His own free will - speaking of God here - to sovereigenly save one sinner over another? For those who opt for free will, I'd like to know how you explain the following. I will use three scriptures to build my argument:

    "Truly, Truly, I say unto you, anyone who commits sin, is a slave to sin"

    "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (1Cor 2:14).

    "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot" (Romans 8:7).

    Question: How can a man who is already a slave to sin (John 8:34), who is in the flesh and cannot even understand the spiritual things of God, namely, to believe the gospel (1 Cor. 2:14), and who is hostile to God (since he loves darkness rather than light) and cannot submit to God's laws (Romans 8:7), choose within himself to keep the highest law - namely, to glorify God and please Him by denying self and following after Christ?

    Note: Just so you will not assume anything else from me, let me make myself clear. I do agree that man is responsible for his sin, has a obligation to repent and come to Christ, has a will and is not a robot, etc. I only believe that man's will is willingly enslaved to sin and therefore he freely chooses that which is in his nature to choose - sin.
     
  2. Cage

    Cage Spirit Guided

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    God chose man, and allows for man to embrace him if we so choose. Christ is our truth, our redemtion, our light, and none come to the father but by him.

    Christ gives us the heart to serve God, and gives us the Spirit to accomplish ourselves in him. His Blood was the "seat of Life", and "meaning of Spirit". It is his Life, and his Spirit that we are to cling to, and follow.

    We are programed/predestined to recieve the darkness and/or the light; it is our choice to embrace what we will. We are born into sin and are slaves to sin until we recieve the light of Christ, and embrace the Spirit he came in. We are spiritually "discerned" until we embrace God's Love .. + .. No matter what age of intelligence we are in. His Love is for all who choose it, and see life in it. Yet, there are those who see it as folley, or foolishness to embrace such a meek, and humble disposition, as they pride themselves on its opposite. Even so, that is choice and not the predestination you speak of. God elects all who will choose him over the lust of flesh. (Free will)


    Life can be a miracle
    Open your heart and see
    Virtue a path of beauty
    Existing in you and me

    Sraight is this passage
    Always open; it is Grace
    Vice is but the darkness
    Existing in its place

    Sit a bit and think it over
    Absent until one can see
    Love is God's guiding hand
    Living Spirit, and heavens key




    ** + **


    "Love"
     
  3. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

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    Why does this topic even matter? Frankly it is none of our business to know who will come to Christ and who won't, regardless of which position we take.

    We as Christians are called to take the gospel to every creature:

    "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mark 16:15-16

    And Jesus commissioned his disciples to take the gosepl to the whole world:

    "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." - Acts 1:8

    Whether or not a person comes to Christ is a matter for God. We are just the messengers of His Word.

    Let me ask you something. Is it proper to pray for someone's salvation, like a family member?
     
  4. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    we know god can come to anyone and knock on the door, for god there is nothing impossible.

    what we don't know is if humans will answer the door, or answer the door only to shut it in his face, or kick him out once he is let in.

    but then we know that god has a panoramic view of man from beginning to end and knows us before we are born, so for his will to be done, he chooses those that he knows will accept what his spirit puts in their hearts, but by their own choice.

    ultimately god's ways are not our ways, and we just have to trust in him and be thankful we know about the good news. so what we know should help us and glorify god. is playing ping pong with freewill vs destination really help us in anyway? does it glorify god in anyway? so you think you solve it in your head, does the world change for the better? do you get a crown for your theories in heaven?
     
  5. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

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    Dondi

    Why does this topic even matter? Frankly it is none of our business to know who will come to Christ and who won't, regardless of which position we take.

    This isnt about who will come to Christ and who wont, its about Grace - "Why did he come for any?" This is what the doctrines of Grace is all about. It shows how amazing grace really is and how grand agapy love really is. It has been my experience to notice that people who understand these doctrines become better Christians for it.

    We as Christians are called to take the gospel to every creature:

    Do you? Do you go out to witness in the streets and pass out tracts? If so, great - way to go. If not, go to The Great News Network
    and sign up to meet Christians in your area. This is a nation wide network of Chrisitans in almost every state, that gather together to go out and preach the gospel to everyone.


    Whether or not a person comes to Christ is a matter for God. We are just the messengers of His Word.

    Amen!


    Let me ask you something. Is it proper to pray for someone's salvation, like a family member?

    Always! Pray like this: "Lord, be pleased to take out their heart of stone today and replace it with a heart of flesh. Be pleased to put your Spirit in them causing them to keep you commamdments and walk in your statues. Be pleased to draw them to yourself and open their eyes and hearts that they may see their need for Christ and live." That prayer is based on the understanding that it is God who does the saving (eze. 36:26-27). If I were to pray like a free willer, I'd probably pray like the following if I were consistant with what I believed: "Lord, please put people in their way to give them the gospel, but please by any means, no not violate their free will to choose you." All that said, is anyone going to answer the question? This tread isnt about whos going to come to Christ, its about why we who come, came. If you would stop assuming and read what I say, this would give you more appriciating for your Lord.
     
  6. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Man simply chooses god. For many reasons.... Mostly it gathers along the lines of fear. We are an intelligent animal... And unlike all other animals we KNOW we HAVE to die. Many people can't handle that... I personally couldn't care... I live with it.. I have to die.. You have to die... Thats how it is... I guess some need nice fairy tales to sooth them and cushion the blow of death. Fear of what happens after death? Nothing an eternity of sleep... I can't wait for that... *sigh of content* rest. But you have those who fear they are going to be put in a place called hell by an "all loving god" and punished for eternity.... Oh no!! best act like an angel so he doesn't punish me!!!

    As I gain more information on religions are very suprised they are still alive... Because stop for a second and just listen to the story of any religion.... It is so, primitive and crazy. Like the Inca worshiping the sun thinking it is some almighty being in the sky.... Then those who thought the world was flat.... Or a bunch of kids around a camp fire telling ghost stories.. You know.. and then oh there is a magical kingdom up in the clouds... We then invent planes... Oh wait it must, erm be futher out..

    If there was a god he would have to proove himself to me... or you or anyone. It isn't my job to proove the existance of a god.. That should be his job. If I bring it down to a level I can understand, If I were god... and someone believed in me.. Just because someone said "hey theres a god... read this book." And that person believed in me. I would see the person to be a fool and gullable... I would want them to make me proove myself. Why be taken for a fool or worshipping in vain? What if there is a god but you worship the wrong god? Why wouldn't the real god show his face..... Instead of hiding behind stories from books? Because god is man made. People look for more logical explanations these days... I guess there are still a few that have strong faith in religion is that maybe because of family background... or what... But Some day soon surrrrrley religion will fade and be nothing more than the past, a history lesson.
     
  7. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

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    Every time a child of God opens His/Her bible with the intent to know, it glorifies God. Every time believers gather around to speak about deep biblical topics (without argument) it glorifies God. "It is the Glory of God to hid a matter and the glory of Kings to seek out a matter" (Pro. 25:2). If everyone of us would just get a glimpse of the majesty and how amazing scripture really is, we'd turn our tvs off, get off computers, turn off the PS3, etc., and get into our Bibles.
     
  8. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

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    Rather than taking up board space answering every post, I'm gonna ask that those who are going to respond to please respond with scripture and not conjecture. I dont exspect non-Chrisitans to use scripture, but I do expect you who have been born again to stretch your minds and arugue your points from scripture and with scripture. That way we'll both glorify God and edify each other.
     
  9. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    i understand what you are saying. but not everyone is interested or desires or finds it necessary to talk about freewill vs. predestination.
     
  10. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

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    Thats fine. Let only those who want to discuss it speak.
     
  11. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    Is that a bit extremist? Does a husband elect his wife or does the wife elect the husband?

    A bit of Luke Skywalker there... does your destiny await you?

    Matthew 18:14 Even so it is NOT the WILL of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

    Appropriate to pray for an enemy's salvation:
    Matthew 5:44-45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

    That seems a bit backwards to me:

    Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
     
  12. cavalier

    cavalier Well-Known Member

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    Hey Dondi
    When I saw the thread title I thought I'd be arguing with you, but what you wrote here blew me away.
     
  13. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    well it's the flipside. matthew 7:8 is about us asking, seeking, and knocking. i was talking about god knocking.
     
  14. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Many are called to be disciples, few are chosen to be leaders, and those who are faithful will will be blessed. We clearly have a choice as to whether we wish to remain faithful.

    Matthew 4
    Four Fishermen Called as Disciples

    18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 Then He said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.” 20 They immediately left their nets and followed Him.
    21 Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. He called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.

    Compare to John 1:35-51, which indicates even more free-will on the part of the disciples.

    Matthew 20
    The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
    1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’
    8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.;)

    Matthew 22
    The Parable of the Wedding Feast
    1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
    11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
    14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.

    Luke 6
    The Twelve Apostles

    12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. {Judas chose to be unfaithful.}

    Revelation 17:14
    ... He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.

    Matthew 24
    45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
     
  15. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

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    This isnt about who will come to Christ and who wont, its about Grace - "Why did he come for any?" This is what the doctrines of Grace is all about. It shows how amazing grace really is and how grand agapy love really is. It has been my experience to notice that people who understand these doctrines become better Christians for it.


    Is it really amazing that God chooses some and not others? That's hardly what I call agape love. Why would He choose some but not others? Is it an arbitrary decision, like a roll of the dice (shake, shake, shake...roll....."Oh, sorry, you lose... better luck nex-...er, just sorry") (shake, shake, shake...roll..."Welcome to the Kingdom of God!")

    Do you? Do you go out to witness in the streets and pass out tracts? If so, great - way to go. If not, go to The Great News Network
    and sign up to meet Christians in your area. This is a nation wide network of Chrisitans in almost every state, that gather together to go out and preach the gospel to everyone.

    Thanks for the website. And yes, I do hand out tracts and have preached in the street. I also try to reach those around my sphere of influence.


    Let me ask you something. Is it proper to pray for someone's salvation, like a family member?

    Always! Pray like this: "Lord, be pleased to take out their heart of stone today and replace it with a heart of flesh. Be pleased to put your Spirit in them causing them to keep you commamdments and walk in your statues. Be pleased to draw them to yourself and open their eyes and hearts that they may see their need for Christ and live." That prayer is based on the understanding that it is God who does the saving (eze. 36:26-27). If I were to pray like a free willer, I'd probably pray like the following if I were consistant with what I believed: "Lord, please put people in their way to give them the gospel, but please by any means, no not violate their free will to choose you." All that said, is anyone going to answer the question? This tread isnt about whos going to come to Christ, its about why we who come, came. If you would stop assuming and read what I say, this would give you more appriciating for your Lord.

    OK. I agree we ought to pray for souls. But don't assume that I would pray the latter "free-willer's prayer. I asked this question for another purpose. But you seemed to have an idea I was getting to something else. I absolutely agree that God does the saving. I also believe He will save those who dilligently seek Him.

    The question I have is why pray for souls at all? If God has already determined who He has chosen, is our prayer for someone going to change that one bit? Are we going to appease God to save someone? Will God change His mind for someone He didn't originally choose to be saved because of our prayers? Or is their destiny set in stone?
     
  16. Cage

    Cage Spirit Guided

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    "Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it's not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be acheived" (I forget who said that, but it's one of my favorite quotes)


    Love,
     
  17. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    prayers acknowledge god, and it also put your heart in the right place that he sees.
     
  18. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

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    Dondi

    Is it really amazing that God chooses some and not others? That's hardly what I call agape love. Why would He choose some but not others? Is it an arbitrary decision, like a roll of the dice (shake, shake, shake...roll....."Oh, sorry, you lose... better luck nex-...er, just sorry") (shake, shake, shake...roll..."Welcome to the Kingdom of God!")

    No one that wants Christ will be turned away. No one that loves God will go to Hell. God's choice in choosing people is in His own good pleasure (Romans 9). Knowing that we are the most wickedest and disgusting and putrafying things ever, why did God choose anyone? That should be your question...That question will lead you to a humble heart and a greater love for God!


    Thanks for the website. And yes, I do hand out tracts and have preached in the street. I also try to reach those around my sphere of influence.

    Way to go Christian!!


    The question I have is why pray for souls at all?

    Because God told us to and because in God's Sovereignity He has ordained or prayers to be means by which people will be saved, among other things. Prayer is very important - the most important thing for any Christian. That said, why do you pray for people who you assume are sovereign in their salvation? What makes you so sure that a natural man will choose sin's pleasure over God? Only a person who believes really understands or believe in the Effectual Calling by God can pray with faith for unsaved people. It pleases God to saves therefore we pray!
     
  19. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

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    So no can answer the question? I want to understand why people who opt for man's choice in salvation, choose to believe that God saves people because He foresaw that they would have faith. I only see that none are coming and God saves some to display His Grace and Mercy. Can anyone show me that salvation is based on free will choice, please?
     
  20. moseslmpg

    moseslmpg Well-Known Member

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    Well, the fact that you are asking people to use scripture to argue kind of limits your answers. And you seem to have already made up your mind anyway.

    The fact that people choose sin, and also can choose to accept or reject Jesus is as much proof as one should need for free will in the context of salvation. In general though, there has to be free will or else there is no point in even creating humans.
     

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