Freewill vs Predestination

moseslmpg

Well, the fact that you are asking people to use scripture to argue kind of limits your answers. And you seem to have already made up your mind anyway.

Yes, I am convinced. But, I'm not so aragant to believe something just because I like it. I have my beliefs on this subject in a flux and is waiting to hear a good argument for freewill. That said, when speaking on God's words, nothing but scripture will suffice. We can only argue scripture alone and nothing else.

The fact that people choose sin, and also can choose to accept or reject Jesus is as much proof as one should need for free will in the context of salvation. In general though, there has to be free will or else there is no point in even creating humans.

Every human chooses sin and has a free will to choose what he/she desiers. Some of you assume that the natural man chooses Christ over sin's pleasure. I disagree. I'd like to know where scripture says or shows in anyway that the natural man/unregenerated man/woman chooses God. I have shown enough that shows that none cant come until the Father draws them and that none even want to come because NONE seek. All that said, man dont accept Jesus. Jesus is King of kings and He has to accept us! Our job is to humble ourselves and recieve Him. We have to learn to clean up our "church talk" so that the unsaved can know how Big our God is, you know?
 
Silas said:
So no can answer the question? I want to understand why people who opt for man's choice in salvation, choose to believe that God saves people because He foresaw that they would have faith. I only see that none are coming and God saves some to display His Grace and Mercy. Can anyone show me that salvation is based on free will choice, please?
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Why would God chose some over others? That doesn't make sense.

Let's go back to the beginning. When Adam and Eve were created, they knew no sin. They only had one commandment, but they had two trees to choose from. The Tree of Life represented the Life of God eternally. To choose the Tree of Life was to choose eternal life. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, represented the autonomy, life without God in Man's wisdom.

Now knowing that Adam and Eve had no sin at this point, why then did they choose to sin against God? They weren't tainted by sin, yet they were tempted nonetheless. The power of darkness should not have had that influence on them. They weren't in bondage to sin.
 
It all just hurts, man can't choose Jesus and never seek G-d?? You have to be one of the selected?? Silas, I know you mean well. And I so look forward to your understanding in a few years, but for now, I'll guess I'll just have to avoid your posts.
 
Many are called, few are chosen (few choose). God alots grace to whom He pleases. The laws of God are "written" onto every man's heart. Saul repented then did not and lost all. David repented and repented again, and again, and lost nothing (in the big of things). Solomon repented, acquiesed, then grew haughty, and lost it all. Revelation points out that the future is not set in stone, but these things will come to pass if man does not turn back to God.

Everything I stated above comes from the Bible, yet shows that man has free will, yet is leading down a path that is predestined. Because God sees all futures, and this is the future man is taking.

We can turn at anytime, and when a single man even begins to turn towards God, all of heaven holds its breath...

So, individually, man has free will. Collectively, God sees the destination man is heading towards. What will happen as in revelation, will ultimately happen, but not every man will suffer that, nor lose his salvation, that is up to the individual and God.

v/r

Joshua
 
I'd like to know where scripture says or shows in anyway that the natural man/unregenerated man/woman chooses God. I have shown enough that shows that none cant come until the Father draws them and that none even want to come because NONE seek. All that said, man dont accept Jesus. Jesus is King of kings and He has to accept us! Our job is to humble ourselves and recieve Him. We have to learn to clean up our "church talk" so that the unsaved can know how Big our God is, you know?

Why does it have to be from scripture? Does thinking about something not suffice? Considerig that God gave you a brain to contemplate things, I don't see why everything has to be backed up by some arbitrary words in a book. And men do choose to accept Jesus, or reject Him. Hence, why some people are not saved, because they refuse to accept Jesus' sacrifice and, as you say, choose to hate Him. Lastly, no, I don't know what this "church talk" sentence is referring to.
 
moseslmpg said:
I'd like to know where scripture says or shows in anyway that the natural man/unregenerated man/woman chooses God. I have shown enough that shows that none cant come until the Father draws them and that none even want to come because NONE seek. All that said, man dont accept Jesus. Jesus is King of kings and He has to accept us! Our job is to humble ourselves and recieve Him. We have to learn to clean up our "church talk" so that the unsaved can know how Big our God is, you know?

Why does it have to be from scripture? Does thinking about something not suffice? Considerig that God gave you a brain to contemplate things, I don't see why everything has to be backed up by some arbitrary words in a book. And men do choose to accept Jesus, or reject Him. Hence, why some people are not saved, because they refuse to accept Jesus' sacrifice and, as you say, choose to hate Him. Lastly, no, I don't know what this "church talk" sentence is referring to.
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Who are you talking to?
 
“Thou hast forsaken me, saith the Lord, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting” [Jer 15:6].

These chilling words on the tongue of the prophet Jeremiah say it all.

The Prophets speak of repentance - that is the totality of their message – God can do nothing with a people who refuse to repent but one thing – take away their freedom, the one thing that makes us human – and that is the whole story. If every man is predestined, then Salvation History is a a pipedream.

That is why Christ is the Good Shepherd ... and 'Prophet, Priest and King' (Calvin) ... a fact we celebrate in a few days ... marked by the attendants at his birth – the shepherd (priests) and the Magi (kings) ... only the prophets were silenced (absent), because 'the Word was made flesh, and dwelt amongst us.'

Happy Christmas,

Thomas
 
Dondi

Why would God chose some over others? That doesn't make sense.

What doesnt make sense to me is why He sent Jesus to suffer the infinite wrath of a Holy God. An innocent man suffered more than any sinner ever will in hell to be the propetiation for the ungodly. Thats unfair, but amazing to me! Now, as for why God chooses some over another, its because God is pleased to do so. Read Romans 9 please and let the Holy Spirit work. God chooses from the same lump of humanity, some equally wicked men who would never have come to Him, to display His Mercy and left other equally wicked men to do what they want, namely not repent and come to Christ, and then punishes them in the end for not coming. He didnt make them not come (He wants them to come), but He will punish them for not coming. You must see that though God is Sovereign, man still has a responsibilty. He is responsible for His sin. The sinner who is saved, is saved purely on God's grace and nothing else, lest he should think he could boast. Its sort of like this: Suppose you and I were guilty of murder and while in prison, the warden comes to me and says "Silas, the governor has chosen to be merciful on you, you are free to go!" Who do I have to thank for my freedom? No one but the govenor, thats who. Who do you have to blame? No one but you, thats who. Its the samething with saved and unsaved people!

Let's go back to the beginning. When Adam and Eve were created, they knew no sin. They only had one commandment, but they had two trees to choose from. The Tree of Life represented the Life of God eternally. To choose the Tree of Life was to choose eternal life. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, represented the autonomy, life without God in Man's wisdom. Now knowing that Adam and Eve had no sin at this point, why then did they choose to sin against God? They weren't tainted by sin, yet they were tempted nonetheless. The power of darkness should not have had that influence on them. They weren't in bondage to sin.

Right! Man's will before the fall were both able to choose up (good) and down (bad). Because their wills we not in bondage to sin, their choice were motivated by their love for God and their willingness to do good (that was their nature). Now you asked the question..."why did they chose to sin agaist God?" To be honest, I dont know. I wonder why myself. They had everything and anything they could want. But I cannot blame them, because I'm sure I would have done the samething myself. What we do know from scripture is that they did sin (only once) and it caused God to be so angry that He cast them out of the garden and pronoucned a death sentence on ALL men who were born through our fore-parants. This shows me that sin is way worst then we can even image. Thats why I say, if only we can get just a glimpse of it - just a peek of how ugly and how nasty and how disgusting and how putrafying, it is, we'd groan in agony and praise God for His wrath upon it. If sin were a physical entity, it would be worst than Satan himself.
 
Silas said:
Dondi

Why would God chose some over others? That doesn't make sense.

What doesnt make sense to me is why He sent Jesus to suffer the infinite wrath of a Holy God. An innocent man suffered more than any sinner ever will in hell to be the propetiation for the ungodly. Thats unfair, but amazing to me! Now, as for why God chooses some over another, its because God is pleased to do so. Read Romans 9 please and let the Holy Spirit work. God chooses from the same lump of humanity, some equally wicked men who would never have come to Him, to display His Mercy and left other equally wicked men to do what they want, namely not repent and come to Christ, and then punishes them in the end for not coming. He didnt make them not come (He wants them to come), but He will punish them for not coming. You must see that though God is Sovereign, man still has a responsibilty. He is responsible for His sin. The sinner who is saved, is saved purely on God's grace and nothing else, lest he should think he could boast. Its sort of like this: Suppose you and I were guilty of murder and while in prison, the warden comes to me and says "Silas, the governor has chosen to be merciful on you, you are free to go!" Who do I have to thank for my freedom? No one but the govenor, thats who. Who do you have to blame? No one but you, thats who. Its the samething with saved and unsaved people!

Let's go back to the beginning. When Adam and Eve were created, they knew no sin. They only had one commandment, but they had two trees to choose from. The Tree of Life represented the Life of God eternally. To choose the Tree of Life was to choose eternal life. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, represented the autonomy, life without God in Man's wisdom. Now knowing that Adam and Eve had no sin at this point, why then did they choose to sin against God? They weren't tainted by sin, yet they were tempted nonetheless. The power of darkness should not have had that influence on them. They weren't in bondage to sin.

Right! Man's will before the fall were both able to choose up (good) and down (bad). Because their wills we not in bondage to sin, their choice were motivated by their love for God and their willingness to do good (that was their nature). Now you asked the question..."why did they chose to sin agaist God?" To be honest, I dont know. I wonder why myself. They had everything and anything they could want. But I cannot blame them, because I'm sure I would have done the samething myself. What we do know from scripture is that they did sin (only once) and it caused God to be so angry that He cast them out of the garden and pronoucned a death sentence on ALL men who were born through our fore-parants. This shows me that sin is way worst then we can even image. Thats why I say, if only we can get just a glimpse of it - just a peek of how ugly and how nasty and how disgusting and how putrafying, it is, we'd groan in agony and praise God for His wrath upon it. If sin were a physical entity, it would be worst than Satan himself.
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What makes you think it was the Father's idea to begin with?...
 
moseslmpg

Why does it have to be from scripture?

Because that alone is truth.

Does thinking about something not suffice?

Thinking is great and even better when combined with scripture. But thinking alone wont suffice...not for the Christian, at least.

Considerig that God gave you a brain to contemplate things, I don't see why everything has to be backed up by some arbitrary words in a book.

Jer. 17:9..."The human mind is more deceitful than anything else."

And men do choose to accept Jesus, or reject Him. Hence, why some people are not saved, because they refuse to accept Jesus' sacrifice and, as you say, choose to hate Him. Lastly, no, I don't know what this "church talk" sentence is referring to.

Some men repent and trust in Jesus and therefore "recieve" His forgiveness. Other men dont. My argument is that the reason why some repent and trust in Christ and thus recieve eternal life, is because they were called out to be sheep from the foudations of the world. God the Father choose them, God the Son paid their debt, and God the Spirit seals them with the promise and leads them into truth whereby they may be trasnformed over time into the image of Christ.
 
Silas--

I may be alone in asking this, but I don't think so. Not that it matters all that much. What are you driving at? Haven't several of us agreed with you that none are good without the grace of God? Whether or not you see grace before faith or the other way around, aren't they connected?

I just don't know why you keep on trying to convince us all of what we already know.

Consider lightening up a little, bro. I cannot figure out who you are preaching to. Yourself?

InPeace (God help me)
InLove
 
Quahom1 said:
What makes you think it was the Father's idea to begin with?...
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Because God foreknew that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore He used it to His glory by having Jesus be the "lamb slained before the foudations of the world" and sending Him "in the fullness of time" to do what He purposed. Moreover Acts 2:22-23 seals it:

"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signsthis man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles."
 
InLove said:
Silas--

I may be alone in asking this, but I don't think so. Not that it matters all that much. What are you driving at? Haven't several of us agreed with you that none are good without the grace of God? Whether or not you see grace before faith or the other way around, aren't they connected?

I just don't know why you keep on trying to convince us all of what we already know.

Consider lightening up a little, bro. I cannot figure out who you are preaching to. Yourself?

InPeace (God help me)
InLove
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lol. OK. But thats not what Im talking about now. Im speaking on election: Is it based on God foreseeing that some would believe the gospel or is it because He foresaw that none would believe and therefore chose to save some based on His own choice in choosing them over others?
 
Silas said:
Because God foreknew that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore He used it to His glory by having Jesus be the "lamb slained before the foudations of the world" and sending Him "in the fullness of time" to do what He purposed. Moreover Acts 2:22-23 seals it:

"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signsthis man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles."
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Hey, I know my own kids might screw up, but I can hope that they don't...then deal with issues "IF" they do.

Might and will are two different perspectives...

God knew they "might" screw up, but the free will thingy put a question mark out there (so God has to look at what outcomes could occur from the variation of the theme).

...even God has Hope...He invented the thing.
 
I still say that whatever God chooses is up to Him. Are we in agreement, Silas? If we are, then what else is it that you want to say?

InPeace,
InLove
 
wil

It all just hurts, man can't choose Jesus and never seek G-d??

Man "wont" choose Jesus. Was there ever a time when you ran from the Lord knowing that He was the truth and worthy of your all? If so, why did you run? Moreover, what finally made you come to Him? Finally, the Scriptures are clear that NONE seek after God. If you say you did pior to God drawing you, you make Him a lair.

You have to be one of the selected??

What does scriptures say?

Silas, I know you mean well. And I so look forward to your understanding in a few years, but for now, I'll guess I'll just have to avoid your posts.

Please do so quietly without writing.
 
InLove said:
I still say that whatever God chooses is up to Him. Are we in agreement, Silas? If we are, then what else is it that you want to say?

InPeace,
InLove
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Say thank you Father for loving me when I didnt love you! Say, thank you for softening my harden heart and leading me to see the pain of your Son that I may come to Him in repentance and live. Then say, Lord lead me into all truth that I may pray and live for you the way you desire.
 
Silas said:
Say thank you Father for loving me when I didnt love you! Say, thank you for softening my harden heart and leading me to see the pain of your Son that I may come to Him in repentance and live. Then say, Lord lead me into all truth that I may pray and live for you the way you desire.
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Alrighty, then.

Amen.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Only difference between man and God's view of the future is that God can see the ultimate outcome, and we can't. Doesn't mean God already peeked to see man's outcome, He just warned us of one of many outcomes should we continue the way we are going.
 
Quahom1 said:
Hey, I know my own kids might screw up, but I can hope that they don't...then deal with issues "IF" they do.

Might and will are two different perspectives...

God knew they "might" screw up, but the free will thingy put a question mark out there (so God has to look at what outcomes could occur from the variation of the theme).

...even God has Hope...He invented the thing.
Click to expand...

God knows every choice before we make it. Thats why He knows what we prayer before we say it. So yeah, God has hope, but He's a realist and He knows the outcome of every choice before it is made.
 
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