Just thoughts - I should be sleeping!

[Silas]

I've been thinking about God's Holiness a lot lately and I've been amazed as to ponder the situation with Adam and Eve, and God's justice. Here's what I mean:

Adam and Eve sinned only once and it was enough for God to cast them out of His presence (though He stilled loved them), and pronouce a death sentence on them and everyone born though them and after them. I mean whoa! I'm reading the Old Testament and I'm seeing How God's Holiness is shown forth in examples of Azzah (forgive me if I spelled his name wrong) when God told no one to touch the Ark of the Covernant and it was going to fall and he [Azzah] tried to catch it and God killed Him. I mean whoa!! Or, what about Nadab and Abihu (Arron's Sons) not doing what God commanded exactly the way He told them - God killed them too! God's Holiness scares me because I know I've sinned so much, even after coming to know Him. I mean, I know some people will say "If God is good, why does He let people go tell Hell?" but that isnt my question. I trust in the Holiness of God and know He always does what is right. In fact, I stand in awe and agreement with Heaven who asks, "If God is good, why does He save man at all?" The scriptures in Proverbs 17:15 says "It is an abomination to justify the wicked." Yet God justifies the wicked in making Christ their [those who trust in Christ] their propeitation or atoning sacrifice. Wow! Think about that. Angels sinned and have no redemption. Man sins way more and way worse, and God himself suffers and dies for them. Whoa!!! Thats amazing to me. Doesnt this make you love and appriciate God's grace all the more? Wow, thank you Jesus! Anyway, all that said...For those who dont trust in Jesus (Mee), you must repent and trust in Him lest you find out how real Hell is.

"Since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed." (2Thes 6:10)

 

[Dondi]

Anyway, all that said...For those who dont trust in Jesus (Mee), you must repent and trust in Him lest you find out how real Hell is.

Silas,

While I appreciate you comments on God's Holiness, and for the most part, agree with you, I do not think it is appropiate to prostylize here in this forum, particularly toward persons specific.

I directed you to this paragraph in the General Introduction to the Code of Conduct (COC):

"We have nothing against people sharing their faith with other members, but CR does not tolerate the presence of members whose sole purpose is to preach at others of different or the same faith."

There is a place for evangelism, but this is not it. All faiths should be respected, even those within the same forum. If you intention is to turn someone to the Lord, you must do it with respect for other's beliefs. You can discuss the issues in the manner of explanation and inquiry or sharing your faith in hopes that they will take to your view, but you must not directly preach at them, like you are doing above.

Please respect the rules.

 

[mee]

For those who dont trust in Jesus (Mee), )

i think you have some wrong thoughts about mee , as all Jehovahs witnesses know from their study of the bible, there is no salvation in any one else , Jesus is a reigning king in the heavenly kingdom goverment Daniel 2;44 daniel 7;13-14 and he is the one that Jehovah is using to bring peace back to the earth Isaiah 9;6-7 and i am welcoming this king Jesus christ. and i am waving my symbolic palm branch to welcome him as the reigning king. along with a great crowd from all nations and islands of the seas revelation 7;9-10

 

[Silas]

i think you have some wrong thoughts about mee , as all Jehovahs witnesses know from their study of the bible, there is no salvation in any one else , Jesus is a reigning king in the heavenly kingdom goverment Daniel 2;44 daniel 7;13-14 and he is the one that Jehovah is using to bring peace back to the earth Isaiah 9;6-7 and i am welcoming this king Jesus christ. and i am waving my symbolic palm branch to welcome him as the reigning king. along with a great crowd from all nations and islands of the seas revelation 7;9-10

Well I'm confused then Mee. Jesus said that "no one is good but God." If what you as a JW hold is true, i.e., that Jesus isnt the Almight uncreated Creator God in the flesh, then Jesus is bad and thus not a "perfect sacrifice." In fact, he would be a blemished lamb with sin (since he isnt good). How then are you justified by such a bad sarcifice?

 

[Silas]

Silas,

While I appreciate you comments on God's Holiness, and for the most part, agree with you,

What part didnt you agree with?

 

[Dondi]

I think the death sentence is a direct natural result from sin, not God's decree of it. They were banished from the Garden because God's Holiness is inapproachable....without Christ.

 

[Silas]

Well, I see a judical judgment on sin, but I could be wrong. On what do you base the death sentence was a result from sin and not a direct judgement from God? Also, you're going to come back on the Predestination thread, right?

 

[Dondi]

Well, I see a judical judgment on sin, but I could be wrong. On what do you base the death sentence was a result from sin and not a direct judgement from God? Also, you're going to come back on the Predestination thread, right?

The Fall of Man was the result of sin, which caused a riff in the fellowship between God and Man. You will notice that when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree, their eyes were opened they immediately saw their nakedness, they were ashamed and tried to cover-up with fig leaves. They were no longer clothed with righteousness. Their conscience was seared.

But all this occurred before the Lord came strolling in the garden, so they didn't even know the judgement of their sin yet, all they knew is something bad, very bad happened to them.

When you look at the curses of the man and woman, you can see evidence that the curse is the result of the fall. While God told them to be fruitfull and multiply, now the women will bear pain in childhood. This suggests that if she had children before the fall, then the childbirth would be bearable, because there was no pain, no sorrow (Rev. 21:4). Neither was it necessary to toil in the garden because Paradise was perfect, but then at the Fall, the land is curse and will only be redeemed at Christ's return and the New Heaven and New Earth. (See Romans 8:22-23)

In Rev 22:2-3, the curse will be lifted because of the Lamb and the Tree of Life (which they ought to have eaten) will be for the healing of the nations.

I'm not saying that there wasn't a pronouncement of judgement. But a pronouncement of judgment is a result of breaking the Law, which God knew man wouldn't keep anyhow. That is why there is Grace.

BTW, I already posted on the Predestination thread.

 

[Silas]

The Fall of Man was the result of sin, which caused a riff in the fellowship between God and Man. You will notice that when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree, their eyes were opened they immediately saw their nakedness, they were ashamed and tried to cover-up with fig leaves. They were no longer clothed with righteousness. Their conscience was seared.

But all this occurred before the Lord came strolling in the garden, so they didn't even know the judgement of their sin yet, all they knew is something bad, very bad happened to them.

When you look at the curses of the man and woman, you can see evidence that the curse is the result of the fall. While God told them to be fruitfull and multiply, now the women will bear pain in childhood. This suggests that if she had children before the fall, then the childbirth would be bearable, because there was no pain, no sorrow (Rev. 21:4). Neither was it necessary to toil in the garden because Paradise was perfect, but then at the Fall, the land is curse and will only be redeemed at Christ's return and the New Heaven and New Earth. (See Romans 8:22-23)

In Rev 22:2-3, the curse will be lifted because of the Lamb and the Tree of Life (which they ought to have eaten) will be for the healing of the nations.

I'm not saying that there wasn't a pronouncement of judgement. But a pronouncement of judgment is a result of breaking the Law, which God knew man wouldn't keep anyhow. That is why there is Grace.

BTW, I already posted on the Predestination thread.

I agree with everything you said!! I only said and still say that we get glimpse of God's holiness when it is superimposed with the horror of sin, namely, the one sin spawned by Adam and Eve, which caused God to pronouce such a seemingly extreme judgement in that He ordained everyone after Adam and Eve to be born guilty and worthy of His judgement. You know? Thats huge to me! God is Holy! But thank that He's so gracioius and loving!!

 

[Quahom1]

Silas,

While I appreciate you comments on God's Holiness, and for the most part, agree with you, I do not think it is appropiate to prostylize here in this forum, particularly toward persons specific.

I directed you to this paragraph in the General Introduction to the Code of Conduct (COC):

"We have nothing against people sharing their faith with other members, but CR does not tolerate the presence of members whose sole purpose is to preach at others of different or the same faith."

There is a place for evangelism, but this is not it. All faiths should be respected, even those within the same forum. If you intention is to turn someone to the Lord, you must do it with respect for other's beliefs. You can discuss the issues in the manner of explanation and inquiry or sharing your faith in hopes that they will take to your view, but you must not directly preach at them, like you are doing above.

Please respect the rules.

I concur. Mee loves God (no doubt in my mind on that point). He simply looks at God differently, as do I from others' perspectives. True some folk are insessant about their particular brand of faith, but that is irrelevant. We are all big boys and girls and can decide for ourselves what we choose to believe or not. But we do not need to sling mud at anyone. It gets really messy.

v/r

Joshua
mod

 

[Quahom1]

I agree with everything you said!! I only said and still say that we get glimpse of God's holiness when it is superimposed with the horror of sin, namely, the one sin spawned by Adam and Eve, which caused God to pronouce such a seemingly extreme judgement in that He ordained everyone after Adam and Eve to be born guilty and worthy of His judgement. You know? Thats huge to me! God is Holy! But thank that He's so gracioius and loving!!

With great power comes great responsibility, No? Seems to me that the angels themselves are intrepidation where man is involved. Jacob fought an angel of the Lord to a stalemate (with a dislocated hip no less). Can you believe that? An angel had to cheat, and still couldn't beat a man...hmmm

Mom says man is more powerful than angels, just not as smart. Man it seems is like a nuclear reactor. He can either be a time bomb, or a powerhouse. It depends on whether or not he allows himself to be guided and channeled.

Adam and Eve, were in possession of their full faculties and brain (we currently only use 10% of what we got). Yet they messed up. God also made it quite clear, that there is nothing man can not accomplish that he puts his mind to. I believe there was a cryptic message in that statement. Scripture reinforces this idea by telling us that one day, we will judge over all of creation, including angels. Think about that for a moment.

I think God put a bit more into us than we realize, hence we are accountable for more than we want to take responsibility for.

In military boot camp, the Drill Instructor picks out the most capable, and drives him/her into the ground...why do you suppose that is? It isn't to break the individual I can assure you that. It is to take that raw talent, strip away the baggage, and finish with a refined product of a human being, and military oriented person, who will be capable of not only taking orders, but one day, giving them (thoughtfully).

Things to consider.

v/r

Joshua

 

[17th Angel]

Silas,

I do not think it is appropiate to prostylize here in this forum, particularly toward persons specific.

Please respect the rules.

Here, here. I agree also.

 

[Dondi]

I agree with everything you said!! I only said and still say that we get glimpse of God's holiness when it is superimposed with the horror of sin, namely, the one sin spawned by Adam and Eve, which caused God to pronouce such a seemingly extreme judgement in that He ordained everyone after Adam and Eve to be born guilty and worthy of His judgement. You know? Thats huge to me! God is Holy! But thank that He's so gracioius and loving!!

Our sin makes us unworthy of God's presence. Until God can make us right, "by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5), through the Blood of Jesus Christ, it is vanity to try and please Him.

God knows we are but clay, that our condition will strive against sin. He also knows that the remedy is to impute righteousness to us. But that is dependent on our willingness to repent and believe in that remedy. The sin He has no problem in forgiving, for that has been paid for. What He is waiting for is our response to the offer to make us righteous. Are we willing to respond?

 

[mee]

Well I'm confused then Mee. Jesus said that "no one is good but God." If what you as a JW hold is true, i.e., that Jesus isnt the Almight uncreated Creator God in the flesh, then Jesus is bad and thus not a "perfect sacrifice." In fact, he would be a blemished lamb with sin (since he isnt good). How then are you justified by such a bad sarcifice?

For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called "perfect" is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God. Because of this Jesus could say of his Father: "Nobody is good, except one, God." (Mr 10:18) Jehovah is incomparable in his excellence, worthy of all praise, supreme in his superb qualities and powers, so that "his name alone is unreachably high." (Ps 148:1-13; Job 36:3, 4, 26; 37:16, 23, 24; Ps 145:2-10, 21) but that does not make Jesus bad , he just knows that his fatherJehovah is the most high. the same way that i know that Jehovah is the most high , as psalm 83;18 tells me

That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,​

You alone are the Most High over all the earth.psalm 83;18Jehovah is not only the most high , he is love and nothing can get better than that.
The Most High God, who created mankind, gave us his written Word, the Holy Scriptures, and set forth many promises in it . These prophecies foretold that in time a holy One would be brought forth to bless all the families of the earth. That promised One was Jesus Christ. ................ many people are misled to believe that Jehovahs witnesses dont recognize Jesus christ . but as all Jehovahs witnesses know, Jesus christ is a central part of Gods purpose for the earth. and there is no salvation in any one else.

 

[Dondi]

For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called "perfect" is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God. Because of this Jesus could say of his Father: "Nobody is good, except one, God." (Mr 10:18) Jehovah is incomparable in his excellence, worthy of all praise, supreme in his superb qualities and powers, so that "his name alone is unreachably high." (Ps 148:1-13; Job 36:3, 4, 26; 37:16, 23, 24; Ps 145:2-10, 21) but that does not make Jesus bad , he just knows that his fatherJehovah is the most high. the same way that i know that Jehovah is the most high , as psalm 83;18 tells me

That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,​

You alone are the Most High over all the earth.psalm 83;18Jehovah is not only the most high , he is love and nothing can get better than that.
The Most High God, who created mankind, gave us his written Word, the Holy Scriptures, and set forth many promises in it . These prophecies foretold that in time a holy One would be brought forth to bless all the families of the earth. That promised One was Jesus Christ. ................ many people are misled to believe that Jehovahs witnesses dont recognize Jesus christ . but as all Jehovahs witnesses know, Jesus christ is a central part of Gods purpose for the earth. and there is no salvation in any one else.

mee, do you believe that Jesus was sinless?

 

[mee]

mee, do you believe that Jesus was sinless?

Mary was a descendant of the sinner Adam, hence herself imperfect and sinful. The question therefore is raised as to how Jesus, Mary’s "firstborn" (Lu 2:7), could be perfect and free from sin in his physical organism. While modern geneticists have learned much about laws of heredity and about dominant and recessive characteristics, they have had no experience in learning the results of uniting perfection with imperfection, as was the case with Jesus’ conception. From the results revealed in the Bible, it would appear that the perfect male life-force (causing the conception) canceled out any imperfection existent in Mary’s ovum, thereby producing a genetic pattern (and embryonic development) that was perfect from its start. Whatever the case, the operation of God’s holy spirit at the time guaranteed the success of God’s purpose. As the angel Gabriel explained to Mary, "power of the Most High" overshadowed her so that what was born was holy, God’s Son. God’s holy spirit formed, as it were, a protective wall so that no imperfection or hurtful force could damage, or blemish, the developing embryo, from conception on.—Lu 1:35. so looking to what the bible says,
Since it was God’s holy spirit that made the birth possible, Jesus owed his human life to his heavenly Father, not to any man, such as his adoptive father Joseph. (Mt 2:13-15; Lu 3:23) As Hebrews 10:5 states, Jehovah God ‘prepared a body for him,’ and Jesus, from conception onward, was truly "undefiled, separated from the sinners."—Heb 7:26; compare Joh 8:46; 1Pe 2:21, 22.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Mary was a descendant of the sinner Adam, hence herself imperfect and sinful. The question therefore is raised as to how Jesus, Mary’s "firstborn" (Lu 2:7), could be perfect and free from sin in his physical organism. While modern geneticists have learned much about laws of heredity and about dominant and recessive characteristics, they have had no experience in learning the results of uniting perfection with imperfection, as was the case with Jesus’ conception. From the results revealed in the Bible, it would appear that the perfect male life-force (causing the conception) canceled out any imperfection existent in Mary’s ovum, thereby producing a genetic pattern (and embryonic development) that was perfect from its start. Whatever the case, the operation of God’s holy spirit at the time guaranteed the success of God’s purpose. As the angel Gabriel explained to Mary, "power of the Most High" overshadowed her so that what was born was holy, God’s Son. God’s holy spirit formed, as it were, a protective wall so that no imperfection or hurtful force could damage, or blemish, the developing embryo, from conception on.—Lu 1:35. so looking to what the bible says,
Since it was God’s holy spirit that made the birth possible, Jesus owed his human life to his heavenly Father, not to any man, such as his adoptive father Joseph. (Mt 2:13-15; Lu 3:23) As Hebrews 10:5 states, Jehovah God ‘prepared a body for him,’ and Jesus, from conception onward, was truly "undefiled, separated from the sinners."—Heb 7:26; compare Joh 8:46; 1Pe 2:21, 22.

so god is holy, the god's holy spirit is holy, and jesus is holy. only god is holy, so if one is holy, then all three are holy.

 

[mee]

so god is holy, the god's holy spirit is holy, and jesus is holy. only god is holy, so if one is holy, then all three are holy.

accurate knowledge about what the holy spirit is, will clear up many things for you.
One operation of God’s holy spirit is to inform, to illuminate, to reveal truths. yes ,it is also a force in motion.
but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de´a and Sa·mar´i·a and to the most distant part of the earth." ACTS 1;8 yes when the holy spirit is behind a work it will accomplish great things.
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. matthew 24;14 a real force in motion .
(Isaiah 43:10) "YOU are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.

 

[Dondi]

Mary was a descendant of the sinner Adam, hence herself imperfect and sinful. The question therefore is raised as to how Jesus, Mary’s "firstborn" (Lu 2:7), could be perfect and free from sin in his physical organism. While modern geneticists have learned much about laws of heredity and about dominant and recessive characteristics, they have had no experience in learning the results of uniting perfection with imperfection, as was the case with Jesus’ conception. From the results revealed in the Bible, it would appear that the perfect male life-force (causing the conception) canceled out any imperfection existent in Mary’s ovum, thereby producing a genetic pattern (and embryonic development) that was perfect from its start. Whatever the case, the operation of God’s holy spirit at the time guaranteed the success of God’s purpose. As the angel Gabriel explained to Mary, "power of the Most High" overshadowed her so that what was born was holy, God’s Son. God’s holy spirit formed, as it were, a protective wall so that no imperfection or hurtful force could damage, or blemish, the developing embryo, from conception on.—Lu 1:35. so looking to what the bible says,
Since it was God’s holy spirit that made the birth possible, Jesus owed his human life to his heavenly Father, not to any man, such as his adoptive father Joseph. (Mt 2:13-15; Lu 3:23) As Hebrews 10:5 states, Jehovah God ‘prepared a body for him,’ and Jesus, from conception onward, was truly "undefiled, separated from the sinners."—Heb 7:26; compare Joh 8:46; 1Pe 2:21, 22.

I take that as a "yes". Of course, there are more scriptures to back up that Jesus was sinless:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" - I Peter 3:18

"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." - Hebrews 4:14-16

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - 2 Corinthians 5:21

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." - I John 3:5

So tell me, what made Jesus sinless?

 

[mee]

I take that as a "yes". Of course, there are more scriptures to back up that Jesus was sinless:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" - I Peter 3:18

"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." - Hebrews 4:14-16

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - 2 Corinthians 5:21

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." - I John 3:5

So tell me, what made Jesus sinless?

As a sinless human, Jesus stood in a position similar to that originally occupied by perfect Adam. For being obedient to God to death, Jesus was made the great High Priest, and he presented the value of his perfect human sacrifice in heaven. (Hebrews 9:24-26) Because God accepted this redemptive price, Jesus could redeem believing descendants of Adam from sin and death by applying the merit of his sacrifice in their behalf. (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23; 1 John 2:1, 2) Jesus thus "became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him." (Hebrews 5:8, 9) This makes it possible for them to attain a righteous standing before God through his Son.