Baptists divided over female professors teaching men

Hello Quahom.



I understand the expression, "She wears the trousers in that house." Is never said as a compliment. However, "He's a pompous so and so." Is also a non-compliment.



That is right, women have been complicit in this, it suits many of them. 'Women will suffer during child birth and be ruled by their men and like it'. That people tend to rule those who are weaker is normal anyway so if weakness in authority is apparent then the other will take advantage of that.



I don't know what you mean really. I suppose I imagine a dysfunctional family as the man beating the women and both ignoring the kids.

Are you Democrat or Republican? Will you vote for Hilary or Condoleezza? :)



My home is a republic without a nominated boss. I give way to my wife as she gives way to me. We are instructed to give way to one another. Eph 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

john.

Interesting. I kiss the ground my wife walks on, because it's my word she obeys in matters of the family. She asks me how she looks and I tell her straight up if it is inappropriate for other than inside the house (and for my eyes only). When I am being in error in dealing with our children she is firm in letting me know (whether too soft or too hard). But we do not disagree in front of them.

Once she got mad when we were first married and declared she would dress as she pleased. I said "ok". Later that night when she came home from work she was in a foul mood. I asked what was wrong? "I got hit on all day long by these scummy men..." lol :eek: :eek: she listens to me now when I answer her on how she looks.

Woman is life and man is the servant of life, and as such is the protector of life...what he says goes for the preservation of life. What she say goes for the sustainment of the servant of life...(my version of Ephesians).

I was thinking of voting for Joe Leiberman and Carl Levin, should they run...they got lots of common sense and experience.

In our home I am the boss, and my wife backs me up...she helps me meet the needs of the family, hence the term "help meet" or "helpmate".

In matters of faith, we differ. However the kids are raised in my faith, yet have a good understanding of hers. There is no hushing about one belief or the other. That is ludicrous. Eventually they decide one or the other, or blend them within their own lives. As long as they are not void and have no guidance at all for their life ahead them.

v/r

Joshua
 
Very little is known about Tertullian but from his own writings...except that he left the church for "heretical beliefs" in his latter years (he became a montanist).

It is presumed that he coined the phrase and concept of "Trinitarian" or Trinity of God.

Thanks. Do you know anything about Irenaeus?
 
Maybe it is because of my first name, but I often think of Deborah (of OT Judges). It looks as if she didn't do much better than many of the men, but I imagine that the people were glad she was there to handle matters at the time. To everything there is (y'all know the rest). :)

InPeace,
InLove
Debora (no "H"--Mom wanted to be different)
 
Please remember that Paul and Timothy mostly worked with the Greeks, and the Greek culture was very Patriarchial. A woman having authority over a man would be offensive in the Greek culture. The Christians faced enough persecution as it was, and having women in positions of authority would probably have brought more persecution on the Greek Christians.
 
Seattlegal said:
Please remember that Paul and Timothy mostly worked with the Greeks, and the Greek culture was very Patriarchial. A woman having authority over a man would be offensive in the Greek culture. The Christians faced enough persecution as it was, and having women in positions of authority would probably have brought more persecution on the Greek Christians.

Precisely. And this, I think, is the reason for many of the things Paul said concerning women. He was, after all, trying to keep the ministry (and himself) alive long enough to make an impact. He was living in the middle of a political hotbed.

InPeace,
InLove
 
johnp. said:
Women are not a standard to be copied by men.

Oh no, I wasn't suggesting men should emulate women. But emotions aren't a woman thing. Metaphorically speaking, men are just beasts with feelings, beasts that are shy about revealing those feelings. These beasts can be aggressive, arrogant, haughty, pompous, self-absorbed and egotistical. But deep inside is a person embarrassed about being known by the world. It's a woman's mission to tame the beast by bringing out the real person. Men are masqueraders. A wise, insightful woman is needed to remove the mask.

There are plenty of men complaining about being misunderstood, by the world at large. They are told that they are a disappointment, that they haven't lived up to the standard of manhood. The world has expectations of them. Women have expectations of them. But they don't want to be judged by those standards. They want to be known for who they really are as individuals. The irony is that while we do want to be understood as people, we don't want the whole world to see through us. We choose particular individuals -- people we entrust to our inner secrets.

johnp. said:
If men do not show emotion in the same way as women it is because that is normal for men, we are not lacking just because women want to talk about emotions and cry all the time and we don't.

If there is an upset what comfort is there in telling another person? Misery loves company?

But then, what's the point of having friends and companions? What happens to men in war? The man was not always meant to be a loner, going through life on his own. It doesn't always happen that way. Men do seek companions. It's not all go-it-alone. We don't keep everything to ourselves. We share our troubles with other men. Who is better at understanding men than other men? That's what male bonding is about.

It's not about crying and pouring everything out. That's not what mateship is about. A good comrade is not necessarily someone you pour your life out for, or one who does that to you. An article in the October 2005 (March 2006 issue for Australian RD) issue of Reader's Digest, "Big Boys Don't Cry" said that men do communicate their struggles, but with as few words as possible. The communication is implicit. It's not a normal mode of a man's behaviour to go into detail about what he's been through even when he is sharing something. So we share, but we don't provide details. We assume our comrades have been through the same thing and understand what we'd been through. We don't want to embarrass ourselves by explaining the details. So we keep our comments vague.

Reader's Digest Article:
Big Boys Don't Cry -- and Other Myths About Men and Their Emotions: Emotional Intelligence
Big Boys Don't Cry -- and Other Myths About Men and Their Emotions: The Crying Game
Big Boys Don't Cry -- and Other Myths About Men and Their Emotions: Guys, Try These
Big Boys Don't Cry -- and Other Myths About Men and Their Emotions: Women, Be Aware

The Crying Game
......As gender roles and rules have loosened, some men -- dubbed Sensitive New Age Guys (SNAGs) -- have dared to let their softer side show. But many men remain confused about how much they can dare to share. "In one breath a woman says she wants us to be emotionally open," says Westover, who is divorced. "In the next she wants us to be her rock. Women are asking us to perform these incredible emotional gymnastics, and it is messing with our heads. Men don't have a road map or a role model to show us how to be both emotional and strong."


That might be what distinguishes men from women sharing their struggles with other women. The communication, I suppose, might be more explicit among females. Women share more details, rather than taking for granted that the other party will necessarily understand. They're also not embarrassed about pouring out their experiences.

I don't think sharing emotion is necessarily a bad thing for men. Every man has something that he is proud of, despite his shortcomings and weaknesses. It may be his dreams, ambitions, aspirations, passions and inspirations. But this object of pride is a secret that only a man knows about. It is not shared. This secret object of pride is supposed to outweigh a man's failures, mistakes and defeats when it reaches fruition, is realised and achieves its full potential. All the defeats, setbacks, weaknesses and shortcomings were merely obstacles holding a man back from realising his mission. The man wants this to be understood. But the secret is sacred and personal. A man can't share it with the world -- only to a few select people whom he trusts.

I would think of the woman as a potential confidant. Men may have other men as comrades, but I doubt whether the intimacy goes deep enough. A wife is supposed to fulfil the role of the ultimate, ideal confidant. If a woman knows what this "secret object of pride" is, the secret, sacred passion that a man harbours within him, she might find it easier to love him for what he is despite the magnitude of his mistakes. But even if she doesn't know what it is, if she at least loves him, she also believes in him. Love is a belief in something. A belief in something wonderful and magnificent that you can't see, hence one's belief in (and love of) God. A truly loving woman believes in that something that the man is proud of.

Every man has a dream. Weakness is just an obstacle. A man isn't defined by his weaknesses. What defines a man is what makes him proud of himself, and this is more important than the weakness that holds him back. To focus on a man's weakness is to misunderstand the man. What one must do is dig deeper, and understand men on a more personal level than superficial elements.
 
Saltmeister said:
It's a woman's mission to tame the beast by bringing out the real person. Men are masqueraders. A wise, insightful woman is needed to remove the mask.
Actually, a woman can help to bring out the worst in a man--"the beast," as you have called it, but it is up to the man to tame his beast by developing self-control, which is one of the fruits of the Spirit. A woman can also help to bring out the best in a man in his successful struggle for self-control.

Saltmeister said:
So we keep our comments vague.

As a woman, I get accused of being vague all the time. When words are inadequate to express my point, I can only point the way with metaphors and hope to stimulate others' minds enough to realize the point I'm trying to get acrossed. (If the others want to understand.)

Saltmeister said:
The Crying Game
......As gender roles and rules have loosened, some men -- dubbed Sensitive New Age Guys (SNAGs) -- have dared to let their softer side show. But many men remain confused about how much they can dare to share. "In one breath a woman says she wants us to be emotionally open," says Westover, who is divorced. "In the next she wants us to be her rock. Women are asking us to perform these incredible emotional gymnastics, and it is messing with our heads. Men don't have a road map or a role model to show us how to be both emotional and strong."

Seeing a woman in labor, childbirth, and post-partum will show you that it can be done, {being both emotional and strong,} as johnp. mentioned in blue below.

johnp. said:
That is right, women have been complicit in this, it suits many of them. 'Women will suffer during child birth and be ruled by their men and like it'. That people tend to rule those who are weaker is normal anyway so if weakness in authority is apparent then the other will take advantage of that.

Regarding the above part in red: What good is authority and control over others if one has not yet mastered self-control? That's what separates the men from the beasts.
 
I've mastered myself - I can't seem to stop doing things I don't want to do.

john. :)
 
seattlegal said:
Actually, a woman can help to bring out the worst in a man--"the beast," as you have called it, but it is up to the man to tame his beast by developing self-control, which is one of the fruits of the Spirit. A woman can also help to bring out the best in a man in his successful struggle for self-control.

Well, by "beast" I did not mean an "out of control animal." The "beast" I am talking about is a man's natural outward personality, which is what you see most of the time. The beast is not an "out of control personality" that you trap, subdue, control and put inside a cage (ie. achieving self-control). It's a man's outfit.

The outfit is what everyone else normally sees. You don't see the real person. The real person doesn't want to be seen. He's more interested in "improving his outfit." What I mean by this "beast idea" is a creature that looks scary, hideous and intimidating on the outside, but once you get to know him, you find that he's a really nice guy. The beast is tamed by whoever is able to penetrate beyond this "natural outward personality." When the beast is "tamed," it means that he's "pacified."

A man that expresses all his emotions and reveals everything about himself is no longer wearing the outfit. He is practically naked. People can see through him, past the outfit, see him for who he really is. He's exposed himself. The outward personality no longer protects and covers him. A man is only supposed to be "naked" to one person -- his wife.:eek:

The "tame the beast" idea comes up in a lot of cartoons. You have a bunch of male characters fighting against some big, scary, hideous, frightening and monstrous adversary, trying to fight against it and defeat it. They come up with all sorts of complicated schemes to trap it, scare it off, destroy it, etc.

Then along comes a woman (or a girl). Of course, you can probably guess what happens next. The woman uses her personality to shame the "monstrous adversary" into backing off. The real message is that the beast being pacified wasn't really that much of a nasty, malign creature after all. It had a soft side. While I don't like the depiction that males lack the "intelligence" (as in emotional intelligence) for that kind of thing, I guess there is some truth to idea that "the beast is a nice person once you get to know it."

seattlegal said:
As a woman, I get accused of being vague all the time. When words are inadequate to express my point, I can only point the way with metaphors and hope to stimulate others' minds enough to realize the point I'm trying to get acrossed. (If the others want to understand.)

Ah yes. The feminine version.

Reminds me of my mother. A lot of the time my mother gave me advice or warnings, she didn't do it by being coercive or intrusive. There were times when she wasn't specific with what she said, but I knew what she was referring to. It was like she didn't need to say it, I already knew.

Very educational . . .:D
 
seattlegal said:
Why? How would they ever master themselves if that was the case?

Maybe giving a woman control is a way in which a man can master himself. Behind every great man is a brilliant woman.

Nah . . . just kidding. I wouldn't let that happen if I had my way. It wouldn't be very macho.:D

johnp. said:
I've mastered myself - I can't seem to stop doing things I don't want to do.

john. :)

What do you mean by mastering yourself? How does doing what you don't want to do equate to mastering yourself? Are you being ironic?:confused: :eek:

Interpretation #1
mastering yourself = doing what you've always dreamed of doing because that's what makes you a master of yourself. On top of the world. Top gun. Mr Universe. Master, architect and author of your own destiny.

Interpretation #2
mastering yourself = doing what you don't want to do because it's the right thing to do, and what you do want to do is the wrong thing so mastering yourself means subduing your dark side. You are your own worst enemy to be conquered.
 
Hello Saltmeister.

Are you being ironic?

I wasn't being sarcastic but was aiming for some humour, an off the cuff remark.
What I think I mean is that I am unable to master myself because my fallen nature is too powerful yet I am held responsible for my fallen nature.
Any seeming improvement I make in regard to myself I will lose in pride. If I try to master myself I am being mastered. Since we are being transformed into the likeness of God our trust must be soley in Christ to change us otherwise it is not of God and is of no benefit.

The beast is not a wild thing out of control but it is in control. But the beast is not man because he behaves in a less emotional way to a woman. We are not beasts because we don't cry when Bambi's mum gets shot. A tear might come to the eye when we get knocked out of the World Cup but I wouldn't say so.

I like the way men have become an 'it'.

A man that expresses all his emotions and reveals everything about himself is no longer wearing the outfit.

Pull yourself together man.

The "beast" I am talking about is a man's natural outward personality, which is what you see most of the time.

I believe that a persons personality is the way it is because the person has found that to work for them. That the personality is a defence mechanism. The one thing that will bring these defences down is love. If two people love one another there are no secrets from each other, no defences are needed.
It might be natural in some way but it is a chosen course for the best part but I don't see why all the emotion thing in the same way is needed, we are different in that way.
A man that expresses all his emotions and reveals everything about himself is not behaving like a man, I'm not saying he isn't a man though. Is there a precedence down the ages?

You are your own worst enemy to be conquered.

If I took that task on I'm already conquered but being confident of this, that he who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Php 1:6.


john.
 
Saltmeister said:
Well, by "beast" I did not mean an "out of control animal." The "beast" I am talking about is a man's natural outward personality, which is what you see most of the time. The beast is not an "out of control personality" that you trap, subdue, control and put inside a cage (ie. achieving self-control). It's a man's outfit.
Clothed in the flesh? :p {see below} Aren't we supposed to strive to be "clothed in Christ?" (Galatians 3:27)
johnp. said:
I wasn't being sarcastic but was aiming for some humour, an off the cuff remark.
What I think I mean is that I am unable to master myself because my fallen nature is too powerful yet I am held responsible for my fallen nature.
Any seeming improvement I make in regard to myself I will lose in pride. If I try to master myself I am being mastered. Since we are being transformed into the likeness of God our trust must be soley in Christ to change us otherwise it is not of God and is of no benefit.

The beast is not a wild thing out of control but it is in control. But the beast is not man because he behaves in a less emotional way to a woman. We are not beasts because we don't cry when Bambi's mum gets shot. A tear might come to the eye when we get knocked out of the World Cup but I wouldn't say so.

I like the way men have become an 'it'.
{Match the colors below}
OK, this is "the beast" I was referring to, and where self-control being a fruit of the Spirit in this regard. It also addresses johnp.'s point about, "I've mastered myself - I can't seem to stop doing things I don't want to do." The self-control comes from the Spirit, but we must choose it, otherwise we make free-will {and thereby love} invalid. {Notice the references to "liberty" just prior to the verses quoted below in Galatians chapter 5, especially verses 13-14?}

Galatians 5:16- said:
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
 
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