taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
If it doesn't go away fast enough and to your satisfaction, be sure to wave the hand with a bit more vigor ... not to mention all the usual sleight. 
R
rodgertutt
Guest
For your consideration
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/how_hell_became_eternal_vincent.htm
http://www.thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/Time_13.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.htm
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.”
And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html
IN THE GARDEN
http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html
TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/how_hell_became_eternal_vincent.htm
http://www.thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/Time_13.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.htm
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.”
And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html
IN THE GARDEN
http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html
TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
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shawn
Well-Known Member
HMM?
This is Greek and Jesus spoke Aramaic.
We have no proof that these things were spoken by Jesus as presented and this is all Here-say.
Believe in Hell if you wish whether a day or eternal it is all BS.
Illusions and myths spun by the priest caste to keep the rabble in line.
Doctrines of wind with no meaning or value.
R
rodgertutt
Guest
"hell"
Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it.
Chapter Eleven
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it.
Chapter Eleven
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
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In which case your whole argument, and testimony, is wasted.
John 8:10-11:
"Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee? Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more."
By your definition, Jesus is equally mistaken, as the woman cannot help herself but do what she does. It's a waste of His time talking to her, indeed it's a waste of His time talking to anyone.
If man does not have free will, then he will perform as programmed, in which case it's pointless preaching to him, and your testimony is meaningless.
Thomas
I might also add, that if man does not possess free will, then he cannot sin.
Therefore your god is punishing man for what he cannot help but be, a bit like me kicking a dog for having four legs.
Thomas
Therefore your god is punishing man for what he cannot help but be, a bit like me kicking a dog for having four legs.
Thomas
R
rodgertutt
Guest
When god makes pleasing jesus our motive
Along with the admonition of Jesus to the woman to "sin no more," He no doubt imparted to her the desire and determination to obey Him.
Until he does this for us, we all will be in the condition of Romans 3:10-18.
When God lays hold on us by His saving grace, then, and only then will He make pleasing Jesus "choice" in our hearts.
Along with the admonition of Jesus to the woman to "sin no more," He no doubt imparted to her the desire and determination to obey Him.
Until he does this for us, we all will be in the condition of Romans 3:10-18.
When God lays hold on us by His saving grace, then, and only then will He make pleasing Jesus "choice" in our hearts.
R
rodgertutt
Guest
The illusion of “free will”
It is precisely because man has no free will that he continually sins.
Romans 3:10-18, and that condition will continue until God makes pleasing Jesus "choice" in our heart.
IMHO "free will" is an illusion.
But I also believe that neither personhood nor morality is diminished by the existence of causality.
Martin Luther's THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL is excellent on this subject.
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html
We do share one thing in common with robots, and that is causality. Everything we believe and do is the product of the combination of strongest influences that have been brought to bear upon our mind at the time.
We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the STRONGEST sets of influences every time.
It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer.
The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.
The idea that it would not be right for God to punish us for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE, ALL OF THE TIME.
Very few Christians actually believe Ephesians 1:11.
"God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will."
I am so glad that I have a God Who is in intimate sovereign control over all strongest influences, and because of what Christ accomplished for us all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all of the temporary negative consequences of our responses to strongest influences into something better that they temporarily prevailed. And He will eventually do this for every fallen creature without exception.
Just What Do You Mean... MAN IS A FREE MORAL AGENT?
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
It is precisely because man has no free will that he continually sins.
Romans 3:10-18, and that condition will continue until God makes pleasing Jesus "choice" in our heart.
IMHO "free will" is an illusion.
But I also believe that neither personhood nor morality is diminished by the existence of causality.
Martin Luther's THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL is excellent on this subject.
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html
We do share one thing in common with robots, and that is causality. Everything we believe and do is the product of the combination of strongest influences that have been brought to bear upon our mind at the time.
We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the STRONGEST sets of influences every time.
It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer.
The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.
The idea that it would not be right for God to punish us for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE, ALL OF THE TIME.
Very few Christians actually believe Ephesians 1:11.
"God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will."
I am so glad that I have a God Who is in intimate sovereign control over all strongest influences, and because of what Christ accomplished for us all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all of the temporary negative consequences of our responses to strongest influences into something better that they temporarily prevailed. And He will eventually do this for every fallen creature without exception.
Just What Do You Mean... MAN IS A FREE MORAL AGENT?
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
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Dondi
Well-Known Member
Did Jesus have a free will?
R
rodgertutt
Guest
The will of jesus
Jesus had a will alright, but the will of Jesus was bound to do our Father's will.
"I can of my own self do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will but the will of the Father Who sent me. John 5:30
"nevertheless not what I will, but what You will" Mark 14:36
Doing our Father's will was the strongest influence in the life of Jesus.
Jesus had a will alright, but the will of Jesus was bound to do our Father's will.
"I can of my own self do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will but the will of the Father Who sent me. John 5:30
"nevertheless not what I will, but what You will" Mark 14:36
Doing our Father's will was the strongest influence in the life of Jesus.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
R
rodgertutt
Guest
Re: The will of jesus
Jesus answered that question Himself when He said "I can of my own self do nothing."
Since the strongest influence in the life of Jesus was to do the Father's will it was not even possible for Him to want to disobey His Father.
The idea that the choice of Jesus would have no moral value if He was not able to disobey His Father is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that Jesus always had to respond to the strongest influence in His life.
Neither personhood nor morality is diminished by the existence of causality.
Jesus answered that question Himself when He said "I can of my own self do nothing."
Since the strongest influence in the life of Jesus was to do the Father's will it was not even possible for Him to want to disobey His Father.
The idea that the choice of Jesus would have no moral value if He was not able to disobey His Father is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that Jesus always had to respond to the strongest influence in His life.
Neither personhood nor morality is diminished by the existence of causality.
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Dondi
Well-Known Member
Re: The will of jesus
So Jesus had no free will.
Yet when His mother asked Him to change water into wine, He replied, "Woman, what have I to do with thee, mine hour has not yet come" (John 2:4). Seeing that it is the Father's time that is in question, He was obviously influenced by His mother to perform this task, and He granted her. Here is an instance where He wasn't ready to reveal Himself as a worker of miracles, but His mother overrid Him, and presumable the Father as well.
So Jesus had no free will.
Yet when His mother asked Him to change water into wine, He replied, "Woman, what have I to do with thee, mine hour has not yet come" (John 2:4). Seeing that it is the Father's time that is in question, He was obviously influenced by His mother to perform this task, and He granted her. Here is an instance where He wasn't ready to reveal Himself as a worker of miracles, but His mother overrid Him, and presumable the Father as well.
Re: The will of jesus
When someone thanked me for doing it I could easily say..."I can of my own self do nothing."
Doesn't mean I don't have free will.
Same with my Christian beliefs. While I believe G!d can only do for us what G!d can do thru us, and that all that I have, all that I hold, all comes from G!d again that doesn't detract from free will.
Now it is in my belief system that there is one thing I cannot avoid...I can procrastinate, I can postpone....but I will eventually return to spirit. That doesn't keep me from finding my own path along the way.
If I were operating a crane and lifting thousands of pounds of equipment in the air to the top of a ten story building.
When someone thanked me for doing it I could easily say..."I can of my own self do nothing."
Doesn't mean I don't have free will.
Same with my Christian beliefs. While I believe G!d can only do for us what G!d can do thru us, and that all that I have, all that I hold, all comes from G!d again that doesn't detract from free will.
Now it is in my belief system that there is one thing I cannot avoid...I can procrastinate, I can postpone....but I will eventually return to spirit. That doesn't keep me from finding my own path along the way.
R
rodgertutt
Guest
Re: The will of jesus
The Father used Mary's insistance to make Jesus realize that His hour had indeed come, and realizing at that moment that His hour had in fact come He granted Mary's request recognizing that it was in fact His Father's will.
Jesus's will responded to the strongest influence which was His newly discovered conviction that His hour had indeed come.
The Father used Mary's insistance to make Jesus realize that His hour had indeed come, and realizing at that moment that His hour had in fact come He granted Mary's request recognizing that it was in fact His Father's will.
Jesus's will responded to the strongest influence which was His newly discovered conviction that His hour had indeed come.
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R
rodgertutt
Guest
So called "free will"
Everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including the efforts of everyone to assist, or prevent it from happening.
"Free" will is an illusion.
The strongest influence always dictates what we choose to believe or do.
The strongest influence in the life of Jesus was to do His Father's will.
Everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including the efforts of everyone to assist, or prevent it from happening.
"Free" will is an illusion.
The strongest influence always dictates what we choose to believe or do.
The strongest influence in the life of Jesus was to do His Father's will.
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Re: When god makes pleasing jesus our motive
Apparently Jesus could not imparted the desire and determination to obey Him to the rich young man (Mark 10:17), a man whom Jesus loved, but who could not give up his worldly possessions ... and likewise when Jesus preached the Bread of Life discourse (John 6) so many of His disciples left Him, that he even asked the Twelve, "will you also go away?" (6:68).
My point is God does not brainwash. What would be the point of that?
Take, for example, the case of the centurion with the sick servant (Matthew 8):
"And Jesus saith to him: I will come and heal him. And the centurion making answer, said: Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof: but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed ... And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel."
A clear case of a response not asked for nor demanded by Jesus, but one freely offered ... a human faith in which He marvels.
It is obvious, for those with the eyes to see, that God delights in His creature ... but your doctrine strips any joy from life or the living of it.
Thomas
Rodgutt, the Bible is full of instances of people's faith being awakened or revitalised by a simple word or action ... but it is equally full of cases where it is lost.
Apparently Jesus could not imparted the desire and determination to obey Him to the rich young man (Mark 10:17), a man whom Jesus loved, but who could not give up his worldly possessions ... and likewise when Jesus preached the Bread of Life discourse (John 6) so many of His disciples left Him, that he even asked the Twelve, "will you also go away?" (6:68).
My point is God does not brainwash. What would be the point of that?
Take, for example, the case of the centurion with the sick servant (Matthew 8):
"And Jesus saith to him: I will come and heal him. And the centurion making answer, said: Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof: but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed ... And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel."
A clear case of a response not asked for nor demanded by Jesus, but one freely offered ... a human faith in which He marvels.
It is obvious, for those with the eyes to see, that God delights in His creature ... but your doctrine strips any joy from life or the living of it.
Thomas
R
rodgertutt
Guest
Unavoidable choices
No one can come to Jesus until the Father draws them (John 6:44). It was not yet the Father's time for the rich man and the many disciples to stick with Jesus.
And my point is
The choices of everyone are unavoidable.
The strongest influence always dictates what we choose.
We may later wish that we had not chosen the way that we did.
But at the time there was no possibility that we could have chosen any differently.
God imposes accountability on everyone.
He will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist; He will eradicate them from existence.
Personally I find great joy in the intimate sovereign control of God over my life!
Most Christians don't believe Ephesians 1:11
They think it should read "some things" instead of "all things."
No one can come to Jesus until the Father draws them (John 6:44). It was not yet the Father's time for the rich man and the many disciples to stick with Jesus.
And my point is
The choices of everyone are unavoidable.
The strongest influence always dictates what we choose.
We may later wish that we had not chosen the way that we did.
But at the time there was no possibility that we could have chosen any differently.
God imposes accountability on everyone.
He will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist; He will eradicate them from existence.
Personally I find great joy in the intimate sovereign control of God over my life!
Most Christians don't believe Ephesians 1:11
They think it should read "some things" instead of "all things."
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Dondi
Well-Known Member
Re: The will of jesus
So essentially you are saying that Jesus was wrong.
Did Jesus really need His mother's insistance though? Was Mary in tighter with the Father than Jesus was?
So essentially you are saying that Jesus was wrong.
Did Jesus really need His mother's insistance though? Was Mary in tighter with the Father than Jesus was?
R
rodgertutt
Guest
Re: The will of jesus
No, Jesus was not wrong.
Up until that point in time, Jesus was right that His time to start peforming miraces had not yet come. But His Father used Mary to reveal to Him that the time had indeed come at that moment.
No, Jesus was not wrong.
Up until that point in time, Jesus was right that His time to start peforming miraces had not yet come. But His Father used Mary to reveal to Him that the time had indeed come at that moment.