Reincarnation/Past Lives or Parasitic Entities?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by pseudonymous, Dec 14, 2003.

  1. pseudonymous

    pseudonymous Obtuse Kineticist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reincarnation/Past Lives or Parasitic Entities?


    I recently read an article about the insurmountable "proof" regarding past lives coming out of India. The assertion was based on numerous anecdotal evidence of children who had vivid recollections of their "previous lives". After a little investigating, it was confirmed that the information they offered could be correlated by visiting the location of the previous life, and interviewing family members of the previous lifetime.

    My question being posed is:

    Is this infallible evidence of reincarnation/past lives, or is it possible that these children have a spirit attached to them? It is very easy for a spirit to attach itself to a child, and as easy to overshadow the child's mind with memories of its own lifetime when it was incarnated.

    Was curious what others think about this topic, as it is often demonstrated in spiritual circles...the idea that so and so had a past life reading and it was discovered such and such...perhaps a spirit came into the reading and told the person what they wanted to hear in order to be in a conducive environment for emotional energy parasiting?

    I think that many who are either just starting out, or those who do not have considerable experience regarding the ability of spirits to be deceitful, fall prey far too often to these charlatans in spirit. It is a fallacy of the spiritual level of awareness that you will only attract what you put out. If you are astral level aware, you will attract astral level entities. Whether or not you are able to discern any motives on the entity's part depends on your experience working with them.

    pseudonymous
     
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,532
    Likes Received:
    8
    A quick note - in case you are interested there was already a thread of the topic covered here: Past Lives thread.

    Think you're addressing different specifics, here, though. :)
     
  3. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2003
    Messages:
    828
    Likes Received:
    1
    Asking a hard question

    If believers in reincarnation will ask themselves this very hard question: How do I bridge my present memory with the memory of my past incarnations? then they might come to the realization that the subject of reincarnation is pure speculation no different from If I were born a sphinx.

    The nearest thing I can see of reincarnation or something quite affine is cloning. But even then the matter of bridging the cloned person's or entity's conscioiusness with the memory that is certifiable of the previous existence or the host-subject, without input post-cloning, is so far in science not a future fact. What is a future fact? It is one that will be factual come tomorrow, like sunrise tomorrow morning.

    Susma Rio Sep


     
  4. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,786
    Likes Received:
    43
    Namaste all,

    well... from the Buddhist point of view.. and this is particular to our understanding of rebirth...

    it is a part of your conciousness that is actually reborn. the Alaya consciousness to be exact.... which is the storehouse consciousness.

    this gets into some rather technical discussions of consciousness and so forth which i, unfortunately, do not have the time to get into at the moment.

    hopefully, over the vacation period, i can post something a bit more technical in this regards.
     
  5. WHKeith

    WHKeith New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    201
    Likes Received:
    0
    In my fundamentalist Christian days, I frequently argued that ALL such New Age concepts as proof of reincarnation, channeling, spirit guides, psychic phenomenon, and the like were clearly deceptions by Satan and his minions. The argument was that there were two and ONLY two possible sources of such information--God and Satan--and so if a piece of information was not clearly from God, it MUST be from the devil.

    Needless to say, I no longer believe this. The idea seems to give Satan credit for way too much power and influence.

    There is an alternative scientific explanation for remembered past lives. In quantum physics, there is a concept gaining popularity that there is a "deeper reality," a kind of base-line reality called the Zero Point Field, where energy and matter exist as regions of higher order and stability within a vaster sea of chaotic virtual particles. Some rather clever arguments further posit that memory, thought, and everything we might lump together under the term "soul" could exist as holographic patterns of data stored in wave interference patterns within the ZPF.

    If THAT is so, we have a possible model to explain reincarnation memories. In fact, it gives us at least THREE models to choose from:

    1. The existence of base-line reality would support the idea of noncorporeal beings that can interact with us, at the very least on a subjective level. Angels, demons, God, heaven, hell, all of that would be possible under this worldview.

    2. The existence of this same base-line reality supports the much broader view of pagans, who believe in a vast array of spiritual intelligences of all sorts. Our souls, if resident within the ZPF, would have an existence independent of the physical body, and could literally incarnate in a long series of physical bodies, surviving the death of each. Tapping into past life memories would mean accessing some of the memory patterns implicit within the ZPF.

    3. The ZPF provides a handle for understanding Jung's "collective unconscious." In this model, the collective unconscious--a kind of group mind shared by all humans at an unconscious level--is the repository of all human memories. It is possible that the child who remembers a past life is somehow accessing the memories of someone who has already died in a process that could be thought of as delayed telepathy.

    At our current stage of ignorance, there is no way of proving any of the above possibilities. Evidence for the first is dependent upon a single cultural worldview that cannot reasonably be called global in scope. Evidence for the second is purely anecdotal and speculative, as dependent upon the individual's personal belief and subjective experience and worldview as is the first. The third is a possible option, though in my opinion it raises more questions than it answers. Why does the child in question tap into THOSE memories--of someone recently deceased? Why not the memories of someone still living? Why not someone dead 10,000 years? Why one dead person in particular, and not a melange of many, many memories from many people?

    One counter-argument here--and ths is NOT intended to be either flip or insulting. From a strictly logic point of view, answer me this. We can reason that past-life memories and all other psychic phenomenon are the products of evil spirits bent on deceiving a gullible humanity, yes. Would it not be equally valid to reason that ALL god or God-related beliefs are the products of evil spirits . . . or aliens, or a gestalt of all human consciousness, or any other villain one cares to name? Why single out the Christian belief system alone as being uncontaminated by these extraordinarily powerful hypothetical entities? The YHWH of the Old Testament can be an extraordinarily evil character; Amos 3:6, Lamentations 3:38, and 1 Samuel 18:10 all claim the Most High as the source of evil, and don't even get me started on how he ordered the genocidal extermination of the Hivites and the Hittites and the Shivites and all of those other ites, and when his own chosen people didn't kill every last man, woman and child in a conquered city, he killed thousands of THEM as well. He promises more of the same, in spades, at the End Times, too. Pretty harsh stuff.

    For that matter, if past-life memories are artifacts planted by evil spirits, how can we trust ANY memory in that respect? That includes memories of being saved, of receiving an answer to prayer, and of brushing my teeth this morning.

    Who do we trust? Who do we believe? Or are we, by chance, left to our own intuition, rational processes, and experience to judge what is right for us individually, and within our own cultural and experiential context?

    By the way, and as a purely personal footnote, I DO believe there are many noncorporeal beings about--call them spirits, for lack of a better term--and I DO believe that many--though by absolutely NO means all--are parasitic and/or deceptive. In my experience, though, these tend to be astral bottom-feeders, incapable of large-scale universal deceptions.

    Personally, though, I test ANY information purportedly coming from such a being, and will not play with oracular devices like the Ouija board outside of a well-cast protective circle, if at all.

    Information derived via hypnosis or light trance work regarding past life memories, however, appears to be in an entirely different category. Those memories that seem to be of a past life that can, in fact, be checked out by observers do appear to be valid memories deeply imbedded within the subconscious. Hypnotic regression is still suspect in most therapeutic circles, but the only alternate explanations to legitimate past lives would appear to be wide-scale collusion and fraud among many separate therapists and researchers, evidence for telepathy or similar psychic phenomenon, or false memories deliberately planted by spirits, incarnate or disincarnate, take your pick. And, too, much of the evidence recounted from cases in India--and in the US and other countries as well--appears to be spontaneous and have nothing to do with hypnosis or the possibility of implanted false memories--implanted by humans, at least.

    So I tend to go the past-life explanation myself, by way of Occam's Razor, if nothing else.
     
  6. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,786
    Likes Received:
    43
    Jung

    Namaste all....

    interestingly enough... Jung based a lot of his work on some eastern texts that were interpeted by a fellow named Wilhelm. unfortunately for them and for us, Wilhelm did not have a solid grasp of the underlying philosphical positions that were being explained in the texts. this lead to an inevitable mistranslation.. with some parts being so incorrect as to be dangerous.

    in fact... i'm posting information from this very text on another thread called Secret of the Golden Flower. the Wilhelm translation is still out there...

    if i get the chance to... i'll post some more specific information regarding what, specifically they got wrong...

    a little teaser... Jung coined a term called "animus" which he based on a concept from Secret of the Golden Flower. this is incorrect :) i'll show you how later :)
     
  7. pseudonymous

    pseudonymous Obtuse Kineticist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    0
    WHKeith,

    first up, thank you for such a thoughtful response. it had a lot of information and ideas which i have contemplated upon.

    this sounds somewhat conducive (in my limited exploration) with rupert sheldrake's morphic resonance hypothesis.

    it would be nice of the folks on either side of a concept regarding these things would come to the understanding of this statement. neither proven nor disproven means ideas arrived at from experience or reasoning are all likely in absence of any irrefutable evidence. too many folks think their ideas are the right ones. seems it could be several different things combined to produce the phenomena too.


    this is one of the aspects that supports a possible parasitic entity. i have considerable experience working with them, so i know their shadowing a person's mind is more than possible. i do not discount the idea that it may be reincarnation, though, and a legitimate past life memory. i offered the idea of entities for a reason, because i have experience with them, and know to a degree how they manifest in a person's life.

    i think the term "evil" is not applicable here. these parasitic entities are not in the majority evil, so much as they are in "survival mode", and the overshadowing isn't deliberate in most of the cases i have seen. it is an effect of possession, and not a deliberate act of the entity. it is simply a consciousness that finds itself without a body, and its entire being rests fearfully on acquiring another host. as you said, a bottom feeder. the entity, when it was alive, likely was an emotional parasite, and death was not a cure.



    aside from the esoteric writings, and the traditions that were past down through them, i do think certain "inspired" texts are just that...channeled sessions with verbose spirits that found a willing person to be a food source, and a conduit for their personal perception of reality. spirits are not usually any brighter than a spiritual person about the nature of reality. their's is just a different view of the same thing.

    i wouldn't trust must if i weren't self aware. i know i have had a lot of my previous understanding of reality (consensus) become obsolete in the face of self awareness.

    i find the decptive type to be the minority. most are much like the human existance they left behind at death...people who believe they know what is best for others, and meddle in the affairs of humans, or the parasitic type that simply out of fear of the unknown in metaphysical realms, cling to a host to "survive".

    again, these memories are not planted by spirits. it is more of the memories of the spirit being within the mind of the person being host to it. it is not an action of the spirit, but an effect of having one as a parasite. it is not deception, but incorporated memories alongside the memories of the host.


    dcv-
     
  8. Zazen

    Zazen New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    0
    shen

    i think this take on reincarnated regressions is interesting..
    [Edited by moderator]...
    as for the topic at hand, i dunno its entirely possible to me that a spirit can do whats described above, umm im not exactly sure what the guidelines and such are for spirits, i mean how is it they can just inhabit a body? does the individual have to be weak minded or spiritualy dead or some defining characteristic?

    because as for reincarnation, to me it makes sense..i mean i can see how western society could have a problem with it because we are all almost completely a christian society, instilled from infancy with ideas of heaven and hell, god and satan, sin and repentance, judgement and souls and such but then you have the vedics coming along and saying, well, youve lived once before you just dont know it, and you will continue to live and die and be reborn untill you free yourself of the self imposed prison..yea that does sound wierd untill you actually study the ideas and such behind what they say, then you can atleast say well its possible

    really though, i think this topic is just ballooned into something which really isnt that imporant, no matter what religion or philosophy you study or whatever, ive never heard of any that teach people they have more then 1 life to live, when i say that i mean you as an individual will only live once, never again will your personality or any like it possibly live again, so why waste your time debating reincarnation when really it wont effect you in that if you die and are reincarnated you wont know anyway, by the laws of karma and reincarnation you will not know, and even if in some odd circumstance you do some day get a regression whats the difference, most people dont believe the regression or even realise what really happened enough to care anyhow, its not like your gonna die, be reborn and just reach a certain age and decide to visit your grandchildren

    [Edited by moderator]
    ugh, wrote another essay.............

    amitabha
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2003
  9. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,786
    Likes Received:
    43
    Namaste Zazen,

    this is exactly what Gilgul Neshamot is about, correct me if i'm mistaken, BannanaBrain.

    you can pick up our thread on this subject here:

    http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=524
     
  10. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    Memories locked away

    I am born in a strange place (from where my family lives), yet as I get older I am drawn back (conciously never thought I'd settle there), then find out that family originated there (38 years after the fact), hundreds of years before...and I have flashes of insight, recognition of places and names, and in some cases discernment of what was the name of a place versus what is the current name of a place (before being told or reading about it). Reincarnation? Don't think so, but perhaps something just as unusual???

    How about ancestral memory? Scientists swear that we can engram animials with memories of route, as well as their offspring. And observation by every pet on earth seems to verify that theory (unless dogs are taking us for a ride). What if our genes (blue prints that determine everything about us at birth), also carry the memories of our ancestors up to the point of the conception of the next generation, and the next, until it is our turn? Could account for some of the fragmented memories some folk have of the past.

    Why, was my 3x great grand father an engineer, then my 2x great grandfather a stationary engineer, then my ...unto me, an engineer, and not one of us apprenticed under the other. Infact, none of us would have anything to do with our fathers during our adolescence. Yet, we all have the knack for some form of engineering.

    I speak a couple of languages, my son speaks four, and I understand the two I can't speak. Interestingly enough the languages we both understand are the same as what our ancestors spoke, but we have never met them, or related family.

    I've been at this place before, I just feel it, and know certain things! Except it was physically impossible for me to have ever been to these familiar places...but I had 4th generation ancestors who lived there (we just discovered that these 4th generation ancestors existed in the first place).

    My theory is ancestral memory, locked in the collective genes that make up me.

    Why bring this up? Besides challenging the reincarnation concept, it seems to make more sense of the part when God said, "Unto the 3rd and 4th generation..."

    my two cents...
     

Share This Page