Are Humans Evil Apart from the Grace of God?
- Thread starter lunamoth
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Silas
Guest
I didnt know self redemption was part of Pelagianism. So you believe that we're all born good?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Wrong question.
We're all born human, and all beloved of God. All created good, all fallen, all under God's grace.
Time to go make dinner, play with the kids, get them to bed, etc..
Catch you later.
S
Silas
Guest
Wrong question.
We're all born human, and all beloved of God. All created good, all fallen, all under God's grace.
Time to go make dinner, play with the kids, get them to bed, etc..
Catch you later.
Have a good one!
S
Silas
Guest
Interesting discussion, Brother!
Anything that makes me get out my Bible is a good thing.
Amen!
Hi Silas –
I like what A.W. Pink once said about that cliche' phrase "God loves the sinner not the sin." He said, "it has become costomary to say that God loves the sinner but hates the sin, but thats a meaningless distintion.
Not in this context. What one has to distinguish is between what a person is, and what a person does.
Now 'sinner' is something different to 'milkman' and so in that sense Pink is right, but let's look closer.
Who made man?
God.
Did God make man as sin?
No.
Did God make man to sin?
No.
Then why does man sin?
Because he is free. Sin is a free moral choice – that's what makes it a sin, and not an error, or an accident – it is the informed choice to do something other than the good.
So man might choose evil, but that does mean he is evil, rather he is suffering moral weakness, or failure.
But sin is not the essence of man. The soul is the essence of being, and the soul is subject to sin, but the soul is not sin.
Man might, as Lunamoth says ... and Scripture tells us ... become slave to sin, hostage, addict ... but man is not sin.
Were that so, and if we are created by God, it would mean that God Himself created us for sin, in which case God is either mad, bad, or indifferent.
+++
So my answer is No, humanity is not evil apart from the Grace of God, but it is subject to sin, apart from the Grace of God.
We can be saved, or redeemed, or restored, or renewed, or changed, or reborn, but we do not cease to be essentially us – Thomas does not become Timothy ...
Thomas
I like what A.W. Pink once said about that cliche' phrase "God loves the sinner not the sin." He said, "it has become costomary to say that God loves the sinner but hates the sin, but thats a meaningless distintion.
Not in this context. What one has to distinguish is between what a person is, and what a person does.
Now 'sinner' is something different to 'milkman' and so in that sense Pink is right, but let's look closer.
Who made man?
God.
Did God make man as sin?
No.
Did God make man to sin?
No.
Then why does man sin?
Because he is free. Sin is a free moral choice – that's what makes it a sin, and not an error, or an accident – it is the informed choice to do something other than the good.
So man might choose evil, but that does mean he is evil, rather he is suffering moral weakness, or failure.
But sin is not the essence of man. The soul is the essence of being, and the soul is subject to sin, but the soul is not sin.
Man might, as Lunamoth says ... and Scripture tells us ... become slave to sin, hostage, addict ... but man is not sin.
Were that so, and if we are created by God, it would mean that God Himself created us for sin, in which case God is either mad, bad, or indifferent.
+++
So my answer is No, humanity is not evil apart from the Grace of God, but it is subject to sin, apart from the Grace of God.
We can be saved, or redeemed, or restored, or renewed, or changed, or reborn, but we do not cease to be essentially us – Thomas does not become Timothy ...
Thomas
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Silas
Guest
Hey Thomas,
I see what you're saying, but I dont agree. Yes God did make us good and by man's own free will he choose to sin, thereby causing all men born after him to be born slaves of sin. So what you said, in light of scripture, does not makes sense to me. Man is not a sinner because He sins, but rather, man sins because he is a sinner. That is what he is. He acts in accordance to his nature. Now, I dont want you to misunderstand me and think that I mean that man can do no good. That is not what I'm what I'm saying. Jesus said, "you being evil can give good gifts." I agree with that, we do many good things (from a human perspective). But, in God's eyes, our best works amount to excrement because it is not done in faith, thus making it sin (Romans 14:23), it is not done to His glory (1 Cor 10:31), it is as filty rags (Isa 64:6), and unlike Christ, our good works are never always done with pure and perfect motives. We are evil in God's eyes apart from Christ. That is a hard saying, because it cuts at our pride. But, to submit to that truth, I feel, will be good since it will make Christ all the more precious.
Later,
Silas
I see what you're saying, but I dont agree. Yes God did make us good and by man's own free will he choose to sin, thereby causing all men born after him to be born slaves of sin. So what you said, in light of scripture, does not makes sense to me. Man is not a sinner because He sins, but rather, man sins because he is a sinner. That is what he is. He acts in accordance to his nature. Now, I dont want you to misunderstand me and think that I mean that man can do no good. That is not what I'm what I'm saying. Jesus said, "you being evil can give good gifts." I agree with that, we do many good things (from a human perspective). But, in God's eyes, our best works amount to excrement because it is not done in faith, thus making it sin (Romans 14:23), it is not done to His glory (1 Cor 10:31), it is as filty rags (Isa 64:6), and unlike Christ, our good works are never always done with pure and perfect motives. We are evil in God's eyes apart from Christ. That is a hard saying, because it cuts at our pride. But, to submit to that truth, I feel, will be good since it will make Christ all the more precious.
Later,
Silas
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Deleted. Double post.
Last edited:
Dondi
Well-Known Member
I look at Man as being imperfect, because of the Fall. There was a "system crash" in the human race. The genetic and spiritual makeup of Man has degraded and that has been passed down since Adam and Eve, like a virus. Because of that imperfection, we are prone toward evil. From Adam to Moses, there was no Law to sustain Man, yet there were some who found favor with God (i.e. Abel, Seth, Noah, and Abraham, etc.) What did sustain them was their faith in God. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Yet were these men sinless? Of course not. We know of Noah's drunkeness, and Abraham's half-lying about his wife to Pharoah, only telling him that she was his sister. Yet they were capable of doing good. Even the Law when it came, did little more that maintain the communal morality among this small nation called Israel, lest they fall into utter darkness and sin. Israel was God's chosen nation, but only survived by the grace and mercy of God because of the Promise.
We all miss the mark, that is what sin is. True, we are not in ourselves righteous before God. However, there is something at the core of Man that God values. Something that is potentially, though not actually there. God wants Man to have the capacity to choose, for in that choice is also the capacity to love. Yet in the risk God took in giving Man that freedom of choice is also the capacity to hate.
The reason Man cannot be perfect is that we lack the power. Think of Man as a bucket of white paint. When Man fell, some black paint contaminated the white paint. Now as try as we might, we can never add anything to get is back to white paint, no matter what combination of colors we might try to mix. it's always going to produce something less that white, even if we try and add white. That is why good works do not justify us. We are trying to add something that won't change us. The only thing we can do is to go through some kind of purifying process to extract the white out of the mix. And this is where God step in, for we cannot purify ourselves. God has to take the dark colors out, and leave the white.
My conclusion is that at the core, there is something God made that is good, very good, as Genesis says. But sin has clouded that good, and our hearts are deceived easily because of sin and sin's presence in the world.
When God redeems us, He makes us new creatures, but our idenity doesn't change, that is the core of our being. The newness comes from His Spirit dwelling in us and purifying our hearts, that we may be fit for the kingdom of God. But we must be willing to allow God to do this. That is where our choice comes in. Just as Adam and Eve made the wrong choice and fell, by making the right choice in Christ, we are made right. Our inner self is washed clean, the virus is expunged.
We all miss the mark, that is what sin is. True, we are not in ourselves righteous before God. However, there is something at the core of Man that God values. Something that is potentially, though not actually there. God wants Man to have the capacity to choose, for in that choice is also the capacity to love. Yet in the risk God took in giving Man that freedom of choice is also the capacity to hate.
The reason Man cannot be perfect is that we lack the power. Think of Man as a bucket of white paint. When Man fell, some black paint contaminated the white paint. Now as try as we might, we can never add anything to get is back to white paint, no matter what combination of colors we might try to mix. it's always going to produce something less that white, even if we try and add white. That is why good works do not justify us. We are trying to add something that won't change us. The only thing we can do is to go through some kind of purifying process to extract the white out of the mix. And this is where God step in, for we cannot purify ourselves. God has to take the dark colors out, and leave the white.
My conclusion is that at the core, there is something God made that is good, very good, as Genesis says. But sin has clouded that good, and our hearts are deceived easily because of sin and sin's presence in the world.
When God redeems us, He makes us new creatures, but our idenity doesn't change, that is the core of our being. The newness comes from His Spirit dwelling in us and purifying our hearts, that we may be fit for the kingdom of God. But we must be willing to allow God to do this. That is where our choice comes in. Just as Adam and Eve made the wrong choice and fell, by making the right choice in Christ, we are made right. Our inner self is washed clean, the virus is expunged.
C
cyberpi
Guest
I submit that evil exists where there is no genetic code, and in all things where there is genetic code. Inside or outside of the body, the evil exists. The only exception is anything that God touches, or in some things that a soul touches. God does not touch everything but can touch anything. A soul can touch some things but not everything... especially of his own body. So are humans evil apart from the touch of God? I easily conclude yes. Grace is often an unseen hand though, whether its from God or a neighbor.
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Silas
Guest
I know you said yes, cyberpi. But, I didnt understand how you got to that opinion. Can you explain again, please?
Thanks!