Alternative Christian Theology- Personal Views

[earl]

There's been much interesting discussion in various threads lately from Wil & zagreus' "doubting Thomas" approach re existence of Jesus historically, discussions re the Logos, our new guy Nick, another Theosophist wondering how Christianity could relate to his many ideas on consiousness, etc, to discussions of grace, surrender & things Pure Land. So thought it might be fun to start a thread where we can post and discuss personal views of things nominally Christian. I'll start by offering my iconoclastic thoughts which have always been a blend of Buddhism and Christianity. First, why I'm even a theist/what is God? The latter-who knows? We can call it the Absolute but that doesn't tell us anything. Thomas has spoken of God as having "personhood" and relating to us as "persons." While I'm unsure what he means about that and while I don't think of God as a "being," there is a personal component as when you hear of so many near death experiences where the individual seems greeted by a loving infinitely wise and infinite presence. What is the Christ/Logos? Now we get into my Buddhist inclinations-Buddhists speak of consciousness and/or beings existing in many realms, traditionally they speak of 6-the 6 lokas. Personally this is how I interpret John 14:2, "In my Father's house there are many dwelling places." After death as one passes through the bardos one purportedly encounters the Clear Light of absolute mind-our utlimate reality which they state is who we really are. Those incapable of seeing that final enlightenment and entering into it begin the process of birthing into other realms 1 of which roughly corresponds to Christian notions of heaven. But the Father-the absolute-is not those other realms. To me that clear light is what is known by some as the Christ/Logos. That Christ is the narrow path spoken of in the Bible, the narrow straight path to dwelling with the Father which requires no less than total surrender to traverse it. Jesus to me was the human embodiment of that Light and a human window to it. Did he perform miracles? Don't know but if so he didn't take credit for it- john14:10- "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? What I am telling you I do not say on My own authority and of My own accord; but the Father Who lives continually in Me does the works." Did he resurrect physically? Who knows? But in Tibetan Buddhism there is likewise a belief that with highly evolved spiritual masters after they die over a period of a few days their bodies dissolve into a "body of light." Of course, nobody ever videotaped that either. I do not believe in atonement by Jesus. Rather he came to teach. I now interpret his famous (infamous ) statement in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except by me" to mean that as he was the embodiment of that clear light present in life and death, the road literally ran through or was represented by him. He was not exhorting his followers to worship him. Rather he was exhorting them to surrender to the clear light Christ/Logos. I believe when we can fully surrender to it we discover our deepest, truest identity which co-inheres with God-and always has. Sin for me simply is a synonym for divine ignorance of that and salvation is not an all or nothing one-time deal, (certainly rebirth to many realms makes sense including the earth realm), but rather seeking to open/surrender as fully as we can to the Divine Reality.Well, those are my Luther-esque epistles. have a good one, earl

 

[taijasi]

earl,

Thank you for that. You remind me of several things, not the least of which is that there are some communication styles which just work for me better than others. Don't ask me how or why, yet you've managed to compress something powerful & profound into a clear & straightforward block ... and it both resonates and invigorates me with 100% harmony & accord.

The thought I found myself having, before I even finished the block, was that - yes, I know we differ in outward appearance, yet here is someone with whom I feel I am utterly and completely "on the same page."

Now I know you've seen my posts, earl, as zagreus and as taijasi ... and I'm quite familiar with presumed "points of difference" - but you see, again, I'm not sure how to phrase it, I'm just aware that IF we kept seeking discrepancies and sticking-points, we'd all be in this thing forever. {What thing? Mmmm ... the Matrix? The Wheel? The lesser expression of the Incarnate Logos? All are different ways of saying the same, imho and `book.'}

So we might need to ask ourself (as I feel I am just now doing in a sort of epiphany - thanks, earl, for helping to facilitate that!) ... at what point are we willing to cease picking nits, and open to an accord & understanding with other people which is "close enough" to our own? Close enough for what?

Well that's kind of just what I'm getting at, without knowing how to say it or express it. Close enough, I guess, to feel that, AHA! Here is a kindred Soul upon the Path, someone whom I might call - IN ANY DAY - Friend. Someone whom I would trust ... with my own friends, my family, perhaps even my very Life. And above all, with whom I would (and do) consider it a True Honor (privilege, & Blessing) to be able to walk a few steps together ... along this Path, sharing in the Journey.

I just feel I don't even begin to know how to express it, or even understand it sometimes, so please forgive my hokiness, if that's how you feel I'm being, but I'm getting sick of pretending anything like "holiness," and I have long since lost, in years past, the ability to communicate as directly and openly as I sometimes (or more deeply) desire.

So if & when the "kindred-ness" appears, as in an epiphany or flash, then the better I seize it, and maybe let It push my pen (fingers, keys), than whatever this other human stuff is which I'm so used to giving expression.

wil is another person here at CR with whom I've felt this, and in fact, whom I've come to inwardly embrace as a "kindred soul" ... though wil, I don't know if you've really had an inkling of how much your posts, your presence, your humor and your Aries-like Spirit (with Piscean-Aquarian temperance) has always (especially recently) meant to me. {now you do!}

Pretty well everyone else at CR, at one point or another - both our "regulars," as well as those who come & go, and even especially some who have moved on - means essentially the same, to me, as you two guys, earl & wil. Naming names is a bit more than uncomfortable for me, because there is such undue emphasis when we begin to "spell things out."


Thus, if all I did was say, "Hey earl, neat, I like how you said X ..." - then would I even begin to express what I've tried to communicate via my current rambling? I dunno ...

~~-~~~-~~​

The Clear Light of Christ/Logos ... is something always present, perhaps in one sense, even Absolutely ... at least in my experience and belief. If that is true, then I'm just feeling how fortunate I am (and we all are) - to be experiencing its effects. And I like how I didn't have to ASK you, earl, to share this gift with me ... or get down on my knees and grovel, and demonstrate some kind of formulaic "worship."

Even earlier today, as I helped my 101 year old friend (and fellow esotericist) to write a letter, the thought occured to me, "What does she mean when she says she prays, and how would she answer me if I asked about it?" The answer came to me, and it means a little more to me now, or rather, my understanding of prayer is a little bit stronger, because I feel that she shared something with me, just as you have, earl (and others have) ... even though I never even voiced my own "prayers" - or earnest desire for understanding, outloud.

It is as if there is a Divine Presence which knows, and hears, our needs - and answers them, meeting us where we are, regardless as to all, other, outer circumstances. And the most that is required of us, yet the one factor which can make all the difference in the world - is are we open to It?

There is an AWFUL temptation to try and turn these last five words around. But I know I am tremendously manipulative - with other people, and within my own self (or lower mind) - because I would much rather avoid changing who and what I am ... then look even a little more directly into the face of this Clear Light of Christ/Logos, which you have just shown me, earl.

This Light does shine within each and every one of us. I am more convinced of that, than of ANY other single "thing" ... whatsoever. If my outward surroundings suddenly winked out for a moment, or even permanently, and all that remained was complete darkness, even such that I became a dimensionless point ... there is something within me that I Know could not be shaken or stirred by this realization of ---

So much qualification. The word is awkward to me, but all I can come up with at the moment is, `The Qualifer.' I mean, what or Whom else could there even be, Who could bring meaning when otherwise there was none ... or put things into (proper) context, where beforehand there was only question.

The urge to personify, for me, is probably just one more aspect, or manner in which, "the mind is the great slayer of the Real." Therefore, even though people often use very clear & distinct words/terms to describe some of this ... I feel it's useful to ask, can we always arrive at true meaning, or understanding, by Invoking (a) Presence via a name - or might it be, that unless & until a certain Quality is present, the rest will not reveal itself, but may even stay ... forever concealed (?) ...

Why am I more comfortable as an esotericist, than as a Christian? Perhaps because I do believe ... that it is the Quality, which opens up our own greater understanding, and introduces us to God, rather than vice versa. If I first go within, then regardless of what I might find, it's a safe bet that if I look hard enough, and long enough, the Pathway back to God will reveal itself.

I think we return to some of the same lessons, even the most basic, each & every time around life's spiral. I know I am re-learning many of the most important lessons, including those of the value of Friends, and of a `Faith Community.' I also know that this is not the first time I've encountered these lessons, nor is this the highest application of their significance, even just for me ... since I am so, so far away from (personal) mastery. Yet perhaps the greatest lesson of all, which I am able to recognize at the moment, is that of Authenticity.

And in some ways, I almost feel I've been one of the least authentic people at CR for my entire sojourn! There are a few exceptions, but I wonder, what could be important for us than that we share with others, and express ourselves, as we are - even Who we are - and not seek to do so despite what we are?

I feel that there's more than one level of meaning in that, yet if we must think of it in terms of a simple dichotomy, then perhaps it will make sense (for some) why I am so grateful for the Ageless Wisdom Teachiings in my life:

We are Soul, not form. We are temporarily an expressed personality, yet more permanently an Immortal Individuality. And although all outward appearances & circumstances will change ... the Eternal Pilgrim experiences it ALL - merely in the wink of an eye.

Apologies for rambling on. Our quaint little expression, "getting things off my chest" has all the world to do with the heart center ... and as for cleaning house, I don't know how there could be any room more important - than this antechamber, and sitting room.

Namaskara,

andrew

 

[earl]

Yeah, Andrew, as you can see from this post, there's no doubt re my being a "kindred spirit" with Theosophists, (in fact more of a kindred spirit with them it seems than traditonal Christianity). That's why I've said in the past at CR that, though I may not accept all the stuff you guys talk about as "facts" the general thrust of your spiritual views I'd fully agree with. As you like to say Namaste Andrew, earl

 

[wil]

awe gee.

I love you guys too, but your not alone...and I hesisitate to name the rest as if I were standing taking home my trophy be sure to dis someone by missing their name on the list!!

This place is therapy, being able to bounce out what bounces around in my brain in a safe environment, one of discussion and exploration. Of pushing the envelope, of forgetting there ever was a box...

In the other forums, I push, and question but try to be respectful. Here I feel I can put my shoes on the coffee table... and my drink down with out a coaster...not for lack of respect, but because no dust settles and no rings are created...we are home and among friends.

Now the real beauty is...say someone jumps in with some untoward remark, no longer is it even required to respond...just move on to where the conversation was going...what bliss. Yes their exists another energy in the room...but it doesn't matter. Yes it hisses and flails its appendages in agressive manners...but it doesn't touch anything...unless of course one acknowledges it. Tis a freedom that this little space for this short time has taught me. And one I can take from this forum to another...or from the virtual to what most consider reality...quite cool.

But while many think me to be alternative...I'm warped enough to think they are...and if Jesus were to arrive today, I'd welcome him to come on in put his sandals up on the coffee table and read a few threads...we'd have some laughs and see how far apart our thinking actually is.

 

[Paladin]

You know guys, this place would be awfully sterile if not for the likes of all of you. Zag, Wil, Earl, sometimes I don't even post a reply because it would be like shouting in a still forest. Something about the final post sets a shimmering in the air I care not to break with my own breath. But you should know I take nourishment from this as well as other threads based on unity, love, understanding and the willingness to leave behind yesterdays manna in favor of what is falling from the Divine Abundance right here and now. This willingness, this proclivity for silence in the midst of chaos reflects the very best of what Christ must have wanted to impart to us. We who have barely gone beyond the search for day to day security and look to the stars of self transcendance.
Thank you for your efforts, the collective unconsciousness is better because of this.

Peace
Mark

 

[pfw]

earl,


So we might need to ask ourself (as I feel I am just now doing in a sort of epiphany - thanks, earl, for helping to facilitate that!) ... at what point are we willing to cease picking nits, and open to an accord & understanding with other people which is "close enough" to our own? Close enough for what?


andrew

At this point onwards I sat up and realy started to pay attention.

This (and many other posts, by many other people) has realy got me thinking. Thanks.

I do believ that 'nit picking' is a very human thing to do- an expression of our desire to understand (often missused or missunderstood). I don't think it's a bad thing but all parties involved should do so with respect (something I forget sometimes).

 

[wil]

at what point are we willing to cease picking nits, and open to an accord & understanding with other people which is "close enough" to our own? Close enough for what?

at this point!

This willingness, this proclivity for silence in the midst of chaos reflects the very best of what Christ must have wanted to impart to us.

There is a saying, one which I have not even become near close enough to strive to attain..."Will what I have to say improve upon the silence" Oh so powerful and oh so impossible for me. Turn the other cheek, love thy enemy, forgive 7 x 70 are nothing compared to the willpower this one takes!

I do believ that 'nit picking' is a very human thing to do- an expression of our desire to understand (often missused or missunderstood). I don't think it's a bad thing but all parties involved should do so with respect (something I forget sometimes).

You are so correct, but I think only because we are raised in it. You hit everthing even your triple toe..and the russian judge gives you a 9.9. You bring your math test home to your dad beaming with a 98 and he looks at the one you got wrong and says, you coulda got a hundred. Maybe this is my perspective, but it appears we were raised in that...and it is our turn to take charge and quit the nit, nip it in the bud before it gets out of our mouths and revel in our connectedness.

yall are da bomb!

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

I want to thank everyone for creating such a nice environment for these discussions. One of the problems I have is that I am very different that the people I see everyday -- I could never have these kinds of discussions with the people I see everyday.

Earl,

You said,

"We can call it the Absolute but that doesn't tell us anything." "But the Father-the absolute-is not those other realms."

--> Just for the record, we Theosophists are not Theists, and we do not equate The Absolute with an Almighty God. (If you do, that's OK by me!)

"Those incapable of seeing that final enlightenment and entering into it begin the process of birthing into other realms 1 of which roughly corresponds to Christian notions of heaven."

--> That sure sounds like Nirvana, or a trip through Heaven back to Earth (or another realm.) These are all concepts that fit very nicely into my belief system. (Both the concept of Heaven and Nirvana work well for me -- I see no contradiction between the two.)

 

[wil]

I want to thank everyone for creating such a nice environment for these discussions. One of the problems I have is that I am very different that the people I see everyday -- I could never have these kinds of discussions with the people I see everyday.

You know, I thought that also. But then I decided to start tearing down the walls of my self imposed box. And not to say I can discuss everything with everybody... But my Mother, my sister and brother in law, some co-workers, some in every area of my life are not only open to but interested in exploring the variety of metaphor in scripture and life...

I've found that if I don't say the words to open the doors I don't find those that are kindred spirits. They, we are everywhere, is it not what we discuss, oneness? When we actually decide to take it to the street tis amazing what we find. If we can focus on where we agree, where we have common interests and want to explore more we delve into quite unexpected territories.

That whole non-judgemental thing is taught to car salesman (don't predjudge by the way they look, or dress, you can't tell who the buyers are), we are told not to judge a book by its cover, but we need to take this to the street because we (I'm saying me) often feel we are alone....when in truth, what we contemplate in private exists all around us...

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,

You said,

"I've found that if I don't say the words to open the doors I don't find those that are kindred spirits."

--> Ah, but that is the trick, isn't it? To open the door without coming across like a proselyter? I try making very general comments, to see where the other person is coming from. I take a look at their response, and take it one step further. If I encounter any resistence, I stop immediately. This is a very cautious approach, but I cannot see any other way to do it.

I have found open-mindedness vs. closed-mindedness to be a key issue. Early in the discussion, I do a quick open-minded assertation. If I find closed-mindedness, I stop.