lunamoth
Episcopalian
Hi Nick,
A few quick replies...getting late.
Well, this kind of discussion is why I am here at CR. I was just trying to correct a misunderstanding I thought you had...you said: "This Fall into matter is seen as a sin in Christianity." That seems to equate matter with sin, or evil, and that is not an orthodox Christian view. I was just trying to clarify that. (BTW, were you raised in a Christian tradition? I feel a little silly explaining things to you if you already know them...but am still happy to discuss my understanding of these things).
Nick--->I am open to hearing about Gnostic ideas. Are you saying Gnostic ideas do not resonate with you?
I don't really know much about Gnosticism, in spite of having a number of conversations with gnostics here and elsewhere. I get the general gist of what gnosis is, and in that sense I am gnostic, but ask 10 gnostics what they know and you will of course get ten different answers.
Anyhoo, the idea that creation/matter is evil and spirit is good and needs to be released from this material prison is a Gnostic idea from the first century, I think. As for me, I'm a Christian.
I think you have expressed another misconception here: heaven and earth as two stages. I don't have time to sort it out right now but I'll try to return to it, or maybe Thomas will have something to say about it. But off the top of my head: Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Reconciliation is for the earth to become heaven. It's inaugerated, and it will be completed in the fullness of time.
Well, I think Andrew has talked about it...but I don't really remember it. If you can explain it simply that would be of interest to me.
~~~
good nite
A few quick replies...getting late.
Luna,
You said,
"The only thing is, to my understanding Christianity does not see the fall as the fall into matter, but it is about ... our relationship with God."
--> This is our difference in a nutshell. The value of our discussion for a monotheist (you) and a non-monothiest (me) is to compare ideas.
Well, this kind of discussion is why I am here at CR. I was just trying to correct a misunderstanding I thought you had...you said: "This Fall into matter is seen as a sin in Christianity." That seems to equate matter with sin, or evil, and that is not an orthodox Christian view. I was just trying to clarify that. (BTW, were you raised in a Christian tradition? I feel a little silly explaining things to you if you already know them...but am still happy to discuss my understanding of these things).
Nick--->I am open to hearing about Gnostic ideas. Are you saying Gnostic ideas do not resonate with you?
I don't really know much about Gnosticism, in spite of having a number of conversations with gnostics here and elsewhere. I get the general gist of what gnosis is, and in that sense I am gnostic, but ask 10 gnostics what they know and you will of course get ten different answers.
I think it works this way, although I would definitely call it a metaphor, and I would also say that it falls short (no pun intended) of the full meaning of the Fall."I have heard of the Fall used as a metaphor for our 'fall' into self-consciousness, the 'moment' when humanity could comprehend that the only way we could be "I" is if there is also "other," and thus the illusion of duality started for all time."
--> This is similar to my belief system, so I would remove the word "metaphor". The concept of duality (a duality that eventually disappears) is basic to many eastern philosophies.
"My own view of the Fall is that is not something that happened in the past, but something that is part of our own experience now."
[/I]--> I agree. This is why I described the entire experience as a cycle. The cycle continues even today. (I suppose Christianity sees it as only two stages — Heaven and earth. I see it as a seemingly endless ladder of ascending (and descending) of levels of consciousness.
I think you have expressed another misconception here: heaven and earth as two stages. I don't have time to sort it out right now but I'll try to return to it, or maybe Thomas will have something to say about it. But off the top of my head: Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Reconciliation is for the earth to become heaven. It's inaugerated, and it will be completed in the fullness of time.
Yes, I think so."We feel alienated...."
--> This is the duality that you mentioned before.
"Interesting. Please go on."
--> Oh, I could give a lot more detail, but I do not know how much you want. Have you heard of the ideas of various levels of consciousness?
Well, I think Andrew has talked about it...but I don't really remember it. If you can explain it simply that would be of interest to me.
~~~
My pleasure. As I said, that's why I post here. That and the doughnuts. You have tried the doughnuts, haven't you?Luna, I want to thank you for our discussion so far. It is rare, indeed, for a Christian and a non-Christian to have a meaningful discussion. Keep up the good work.
good nite