Are we being conned?

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enlightenment

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Psychiatrists are a respected arm of the medical profession.

Has anyone ever seen the film K Pax?

At one point in the film, the central charachter, played by Kevin Spcaey, asks the psychiatrist, who like all of them are paid very well, "Are you are doctor"? To which the psychiatrist replies in the affirmative.

"Then why are you not curing any of these people", says Spacey, pointing to the patients of a mental ward.

The psychiatrist has no answer to that very simple question.

So I shall ask you.

Are psychiatrists merely a modern version of the old snake oil salesmen?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-PAX
 

Hi,

I’ve not seen K Pax, although I do like Kevin Spacey.

As to your question “are psychiatrists frauds”…

I would say not in the sense that they have the same good intention as other doctors i.e. to cure people of illness. I know of people who say they have been helped by being treated at a mental hospital so who am I to say they have not been?

However, this is of course a separate issue to the larger, but related, one of is “good” / “poor” mental health the same as physical health. It is treated as such (no pun intended) and has been largely annexed by the medical profession historically as part of its territory.

Only once the root cause of a so-called mental “illness” has been established will it be possible to consider prescribing a “cure”. So if ultimately (for example) schizophrenia really does exist as just one illness with one physical cause then a cure may be developed and the involvement of the medical profession in the shape of psychiatrists is appropriate if that cure is one of a medical nature. If on the other hand, schizophrenia is a result of dysfunctional upbringing / society then talking therapies would seem more appropriate.

Often I imagine, it is likely to be a mixture of both, as it presently is.

My personal belief is that mental poor health generally is “caused” by dysfunctional upbringing / experiences / society (that might seem rather sweeping but no more sweeping than simply throwing drugs at the problems people face in their lives). Drugs may be useful in amelioration or crisis management but they do not represent a panacea.

s.
 
Really enjoyed the movie-but no that profession isn't conning anyone. (The movie does however raise indirectly the interesting question of how another's proclaimed experiences are received by those whose beliefs have no room for acceptance of same;) ). Now there's a difference between conning and effectiveness. The mental health professions almost never use the term "cure." Suffering can be alleviated to varying degrees based upon type of disorder-some respond very well to medication. Some respond well to therapy. But for most conditions whether therapy or meds or both are used typically only varying degrees of improvement are seen; i.e., no matter which side of the therapy relationship you're on, life is just darn tough sometimes.:) earl
 
Enlightenment:

If you believe that psychiatrists are con men/women, you should read the Late Dr. M. Scott Peck's first two books, The Road Less Traveled, and People Of The Lie. This man helped more people indirectly by just what he wrote in the 80's and 90's than a whole battalion of therapists. He was a psychiatrist who genuinely loved people and life, and did so based upon his religious perspectives as a Zen Bhuddist and Christian ( how about that Earl). He was also very strong on Hegelian philosophy. I had the great honor to walk, talk, and correspond with him, and he was everything I've said and more.

flow....:)
 
yes and no, enlightenment...

I work in a hospital inpatient psych unit, and most of the shrinks get paid 60K a year, and see their patients once a week for 15 minutes, in which time they ask them about mood, and functioning, and maybe prescribe medication... a trained monkey or a computer simulation could do the same, for far less money, and probably be a lot more accurate in their diagnoses... most shrinks in the UK are posh middle class men, who are generally ministering to the working classes, and they have no clue about social functioning in this lower class, and quite often attribute eccentricities which are tolerated within the persons social group to their mental health condition... if a person dares to disagree with the doctors diagnosis or prescription, the person is then put on higher doses of meds, until they eventually become compliant... in my humble opinion, it is all a con... doctors get free holidays from the drugs companies for promoting their products, they come to the table with their own agendas and are not adverse to placing ppl in drugs trials without the persons consent, and they generally couldn't find their own asses in the dark with two hands... yet we give them power over ppl's liberty, and we pay them 60K a year... nice job if u can get it...

I have met the odd one or two, the new breed, and they seem to be more aware of social influences/factors, etc, and do more comprehensive assessments and actually listen to their patients, but they are rare... yes, I think that ppl are being conned into accepting a mental health diagnosis when they do not need it, being dosed up to the eyeballs on drugs which they dont need and which are giving them brain damage, but I also accept that some ppl cannot effectively manage their symptoms on their own and need some form of help, and we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss mental illness as a lie, as it does exist, but the way we treat it is not the way we should treat it...

I was in a therapeutic community for a while, a few years ago, and the differences between the TC approach and the NHS inpatient hospital approach is scandalous... TCs manage to make more ppl better for longer with less money and less reliance on drugs, but its easier for them to "contain all the nutters" if they bang em in hospital and dose them up so they can't speak... joe public stays nice and safe then, even if jo the schizo has a crap life... yeah, thats progress..

anyway...
 
flowperson said:
Enlightenment:

If you believe that psychiatrists are con men/women, you should read the Late Dr. M. Scott Peck's first two books, The Road Less Traveled, and People Of The Lie. This man helped more people indirectly by just what he wrote in the 80's and 90's than a whole battalion of therapists. He was a psychiatrist who genuinely loved people and life, and did so based upon his religious perspectives as a Zen Bhuddist and Christian ( how about that Earl). He was also very strong on Hegelian philosophy. I had the great honor to walk, talk, and correspond with him, and he was everything I've said and more.

flow....:)
Click to expand...

I would be v interested in reading these books, FP.

So much so, that I think I will go see if I can get them on Amazon.

I am not on my own PC tonight, and this one is so slow, that it would take me an age to go to wikipedia and find out what Hegelian philosophy is, however, perhaps if you are still online, you can, in simple terms, outline it for me?

Many thanks


Steve

x
 
Francis king said:
yes and no, enlightenment...

I work in a hospital inpatient psych unit, and most of the shrinks get paid 60K a year, and see their patients once a week for 15 minutes, in which time they ask them about mood, and functioning, and maybe prescribe medication... a trained monkey or a computer simulation could do the same, for far less money, and probably be a lot more accurate in their diagnoses... most shrinks in the UK are posh middle class men, who are generally ministering to the working classes, and they have no clue about social functioning in this lower class, and quite often attribute eccentricities which are tolerated within the persons social group to their mental health condition... if a person dares to disagree with the doctors diagnosis or prescription, the person is then put on higher doses of meds, until they eventually become compliant... in my humble opinion, it is all a con... doctors get free holidays from the drugs companies for promoting their products, they come to the table with their own agendas and are not adverse to placing ppl in drugs trials without the persons consent, and they generally couldn't find their own asses in the dark with two hands... yet we give them power over ppl's liberty, and we pay them 60K a year... nice job if u can get it...

I have met the odd one or two, the new breed, and they seem to be more aware of social influences/factors, etc, and do more comprehensive assessments and actually listen to their patients, but they are rare... yes, I think that ppl are being conned into accepting a mental health diagnosis when they do not need it, being dosed up to the eyeballs on drugs which they dont need and which are giving them brain damage, but I also accept that some ppl cannot effectively manage their symptoms on their own and need some form of help, and we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss mental illness as a lie, as it does exist, but the way we treat it is not the way we should treat it...

I was in a therapeutic community for a while, a few years ago, and the differences between the TC approach and the NHS inpatient hospital approach is scandalous... TCs manage to make more ppl better for longer with less money and less reliance on drugs, but its easier for them to "contain all the nutters" if they bang em in hospital and dose them up so they can't speak... joe public stays nice and safe then, even if jo the schizo has a crap life... yeah, thats progress..

anyway...
Click to expand...


An absolutely spot on post, sir.

I had a brutal upbringing, as did my sister and my brother.

It effected us all in different ways.

A few years ago, my sister, she took an OD of paracetamol, and ended up in the Royal Edinburgh hospital.

I went to visit her, and was appalled by the conditions.

It was simple things, for example, why does the place need to be painted and decorated in such a grim manner?

Surely some common sense would dictate that such a place, at the very least, should be designed in a more postive and uplifting manner.

I can see no feasible reason why this one small thing cannot be done.

Why do you think it is that way?

I would be genuinely interested in what you have to say here, as you have experience from the inside, so to speak....


Thank you,


Steve
 
Hi you UK guys. Your experiences of which I know nothing as I've never been to the UK don't exactly match my own.:) But Flow M. Scott Peck could have been the poster child for many of us-flawed, yet tried to contribute much, and searching. Being in the shrink bizz doesn't ensure one's got all the answers to one's own life let alone anothers' I can assure you. Earl

M. Scott Peck-Comment-Obituaries-TimesOnline
 
earl said:
Hi you UK guys. Your experiences of which I know nothing as I've never been to the UK don't exactly match my own.:) But Flow M. Scott Peck could have been the poster child for many of us-flawed, yet tried to contribute much, and searching. Being in the shrink bizz doesn't ensure one's got all the answers to one's own life let alone anothers' I can assure you. Earl

M. Scott Peck-Comment-Obituaries-TimesOnline
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link.

There are none of us without flaw, Earl.

May I ask, what your profession is?

I don't think anyone expects 'all the answers' from psychiatry, but if they are doctors, then is it too much for them to actually cure some of their patients?

Unloaded question there, buddy.



Steve
 
Enlightenment, I've worked as a psychotherapist in community mental health for over 25 years-on outpatient basis, though am familiar with how inpatient settings work. Needless to say, have met all kinds of folk and seen a panoply of types of mental health problems in that time. As to "cure," the reason it's not a word used much by our profession is that it's not really applicable. Some disorders are largely biologically-based such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia which can be improved by meds, particularly the former where one's functioning can be quite normalized. But meds don't cure those cases, they control the symptoms. Bulk of stuff we deal with however isn't reallly biologically-based. We deal with the emotional after-math of various life stressors big and little. With these situations we attempt to impart to the individual bolstered and/or new coping skills which hopefully they can apply in future situations. But as you can imagine, life isn't a "curable problem" & so is going to throw us curve balls in any number of unpredictable ways over time. have a good one, earl
 
Hi Earl:

Messers Gill and Hilton didn't think much of Scotty. Would you call the obit judgemental ? Seemed a bit harsh to me.

All I know is that his books pulled me up from some bad places and made me take a look at myself. Not an easy thing to do. He also took his personal time to interact with me, someone totally a stranger to him.

Private lives are private lives, unless you have a degree of public success, and then that gives all hell an excuse to burst out upon you at times.

As you certainly well know, life is difficult. He helped lots of people like me live to be grown-ups at times.

flow....:cool:
 
Psychiatrists come in different flavors, sizes, and camps, like any other people. Francis's perspective of them as detached academic pill-pushers, tending towards the sterile and arrogant, is I think quite valid. It is a stereotypical view, but aside from being a generalization it is also a reality which can be seen in any community mental health clinic or private practice.

Psychiatrists are the medical-model branch of the mental health and wellness spectrum of care practitioners. Good to keep in mind that people, when dealing with their issues, sometimes have a choice. I say sometimes because there is a large section of the "mentally ill" population who are impoverished and have limited choices. These people will most inevitably end up at the free clinic/public healthcare mental health facilities, simply for their lack of resources. The model there is one of maintenance of symptoms through medications prescribed by a psychiatrist, limited therapy, and often a large amount of waking hours spent at a "mental health center" and group therapy. At least this is what I have seen (I worked in the mental health field for about three years).

Fortunately there are psychiatrists and psychiatric nurse practitioners out there who keep up on their research and are open to healing modalities besides just prescription drugs. In my experience (this time as a mental health "consumer"), these are rare.

Also something to keep in mind is what I touched on earlier: psychiatrists are one option in a spectrum of mental health treatment options. Psychologists are another mainstream option. If you live in a large city, university town, or perhaps somewhere that is just saavy and hip to psychotherapy, you'll find that there are various options and modalities of treatment: behavioral, cognitive, psycho-analytic, interpersonal, cognitive-behavioral, and any combination of these, as well as others I'm sure that I'm not aware of or spacing at the moment.

Counselors are another option. To me, a "counselor" is a lightweight psychologist. They haven't got quite the amount of training and experience as a PhD psychologist, but they're adept in different counseling techniques and can be quite effective.

Outside of this conventional realm of mental health, you have all sorts of options, some which might seem freaky-deaky to some people. Reiki, accupuncture and accupressure, yoga, meditation, dance, exercise, conscious breathing, mindfulness, any kind of relaxation technique/spiritual practice, these are all options for optimizing mental health/wellness. If you ask a professional, they may tell you that these things can be helpful in conjunction with therapy and/or pharmaceuticals--and in many cases I think they'd be right. Although mild anxiety or a one-time dip into depression might be mitigated through accupuncture, exercise, deep breathing, yadda yadda, more intense problems may call for a visit to the psych establishment, as much as I hate to admit it.

Yet I do believe that most emotional problems/mental illnesses (I would venture to include even "schizophrenia" in here) are products of the ills of society, dysfunctional families, and so forth--in combination with each other or singly. Biological factors also play a role, I believe, but I don't buy that all psychological problems stem from a "chemical imbalance" and should be medicated away. No. That's the patch-it-up-and-and-forget-about-it shortsighted approach. Rather than treat the symptoms, I think it's important and empowering to get to the root causes.

So blah blah blah I type too much and I guess what I am saying in my long-winded way is no I don't think psychiatrists are strictly con men and women, although they probably could stand to take their heads out of their asses as a generalized group, and treat their "patients" or "clients" in a more human way. We would also all be served well if the fat bastards took a pay cut, but this critcism applies even more to corporate CEOs, sports figures, Hollywood actors, actresses, and directors, as well as the John Grishams, Donald Trumps, and Larry Kings of the world, but that's a whole 'nother topic.
 
Thanks for all the intelligent, thought provoking replies to this thread. In the end, people die every day, I suppose, if someone, even a good person, can no longer cope with their condition, and takes their own life, then in a short time they will be but a fading memory, even to those that love them, and to the psychiatrists, they would not even care at all, in my experience.

I have learned to accept that as a harsh reality.

x
 
enlightenment said:
Which part??? :confused:

Anyway, couldn't tell you, I have no experience of them, do you?
Click to expand...
I have received Scientology material before..and it seems more than once I've seen them quote reasons why psychiatry is a proffession of con men, and we are all being duped...all the chemical inbalances, depression, ADD/ADHD are all made up...and they have the solution w/o all the mumbo jumbo...

Now this is me and my paraphrased interpretation of what I've read over the years...I'm currently not making a statement about psychiatrists or scientologists...I have no 'strong' view pro or con against either...but if I were to be forced to pick a team to go to travel with my family on a space ship for the next 20 years...and these two were the last two left on the bench and I could only take one and had to take one...I'd take the psychiatrist...what little I know about either they still weigh higher...either one of them might be able to drive me crazy and I don't know if either one of them could keep me sane...
 
enlightenment said:
Thanks for all the intelligent, thought provoking replies to this thread. In the end, people die every day, I suppose, if someone, even a good person, can no longer cope with their condition, and takes their own life, then in a short time they will be but a fading memory, even to those that love them, and to the psychiatrists, they would not even care at all, in my experience.

I have learned to accept that as a harsh reality.

x
Click to expand...
Of course my responses here are as my role as a psychotherapist not a psychiatrist which I am not. I have been fortunate that in my many years as one have never had a client commit suicide, but have had a few die of natural deaths while I was working with them including 1 in past week and yes I was affected by it as I was fond of him. The psychiatrist I work with is attending 2 funerals for his long-time clients this week-natural deaths too. I believe that the reason psychiatrists appear "mechanical" to some is in the nature of the roles-they don't do psychotherapy-their role is to gauge if meds are indicated and which ones. In our profession you offer whatever may be indicated to ease suffering and there are biologically-based conditions I spoke of that will only get better with meds. As to Peck, Flow, I only thought the bio was interesting because it was an example of however bigger than life a figure may look, the reality of it is we're all in the same boat together trying to figure life out, flaws and all.:) take care, earl
 
wil said:
I have received Scientology material before..and it seems more than once I've seen them quote reasons why psychiatry is a proffession of con men, and we are all being duped...all the chemical inbalances, depression, ADD/ADHD are all made up...and they have the solution w/o all the mumbo jumbo...

Now this is me and my paraphrased interpretation of what I've read over the years...I'm currently not making a statement about psychiatrists or scientologists...I have no 'strong' view pro or con against either...but if I were to be forced to pick a team to go to travel with my family on a space ship for the next 20 years...and these two were the last two left on the bench and I could only take one and had to take one...I'd take the psychiatrist...what little I know about either they still weigh higher...either one of them might be able to drive me crazy and I don't know if either one of them could keep me sane...
Click to expand...

I didn't state that depression etc, were all made up, I don't see where anyone has on this thread...:confused:
 
no, nobody is denying the reality of mental illness here, yes, it exists, but, to paraphrase Candrakirti "it does not appear the way in which it appears"...
 
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