How much did Jesus know he was God?

Adamante

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Only my 4th time to the board and already some very well rounded opinions!

I can not say for fact what Jesus thought of himself of knew of himself. I have heard some say that God came to Earth to experience life as a man so that he may understand why we do what we do. I suppose that is reasonable. The best way to understand something is to do it.

One important message of the Bible is love. Apparently, God loved his creation of man so much, he sent his only son to die for us. This topic, to me, ties itself into the whole free will debate. God does not understand why we do what we do. He does not know why we have such trouble with temptations and the like. (Yes, I siad God does not know...that could land me into trouble!) In an effort to understand his creation, he tried to be one! Was it flawed? Well, perhaps it was. Jesus knew he was divine, and therefore would not have to face the judgement. Jesus did not have to have faith in any matter like we do, b/c he knew already what existed in the heavens, and of who he was of course. In an extremely limited way, he felt what it was like to be a man, to better understand his creation. Notice that in Genesis, he did at least seem surprised that Adam and Eve ate what they were told not to.

So...long winded answer! I think Jesus did know he was God. But in an way we can not understand, he was very limited and specialized...b/c he loved us and so he could see what our life was like in the form of a man.

That's a neat theory. But I'm not sure how much of it can be believed. Any other post on this thread is just as likely.
 

arthra

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I want to welcome Adamante and Pagan prophet to comparative-religion.com! I'm just another particpant and i'm a Baha'i.

I was reading Adamante's line of thought and was intrigued with where he was going with it.... I also noted from your profile Adamante, that you are "always faithful" (Semper Fidelis), a Marine, and I was also a Marine many years ago, so welcome again my "buddy".

By the way, I don't think anyone one here can land into "trouble" for what they've put forth!

But i'd like to quote you and I'd just like to offer a comment or two:

Adamante wrote:

Apparently, God loved his creation of man so much, he sent his only son to die for us. This topic, to me, ties itself into the whole free will debate.

Comment:

Baha'is have a well known saying of Baha'u'llah that goes something like this "Love Me that I may love thee, if thou knowest Me not, my love can in no wise reach thee, know this oh servant!" So we Baha'is agree that God loved His creation and created it so that God's love can be returned to Him. God is also from our view All-knowing... He created us and knows us better than we ourselves but He allows us to have freewill so that we can choose to love Him. So there is a seeming paradox here that some would see...How can know the future and grant us free will to choose Him? Knowing the future does not determine it from our perspective.

Adamante wrote

God does not understand why we do what we do. He does not know why we have such trouble with temptations and the like. (Yes, I siad God does not know...that could land me into trouble!) In an effort to understand his creation, he tried to be one! Was it flawed? Well, perhaps it was.

Comment:

As above, Baha'is would say God understands us better than we do. Now the next stage in your thought "In an effort to understand his creation, he tried to be one!" interested me and I'd like to pose here an analogy.... How can an all knowing God reach us, His creation? From the Baha'i perspective He selects a special creation to reflect Himself to us...these are called Manifestations of God and they are unique... So in this case Jesus Christ appeared and began reflecting God to us from the pure mirror of His heart. The plan of God for us is that we will reflect back God's attributes such as love, to each other and back to God.

Adamante wrote:

Jesus knew he was divine, and therefore would not have to face the judgement. Jesus did not have to have faith in any matter like we do, b/c he knew already what existed in the heavens, and of who he was of course. In an extremely limited way, he felt what it was like to be a man, to better understand his creation. Notice that in Genesis, he did at least seem surprised that Adam and Eve ate what they were told not to.

Comment:

Baha'is would say yes, Jesus knew He was special and that the Divine was reflected in Him.... in assuming this life, He was aware of the pain and suffering and took it on for us so that we could have the opportunity to reflect back His love and the love of God in Him. Yes, "he knew already what existed in the heavens, and of who he was of course."

But He also "understood" at least from the Baha'i view and was willing to assume His existence on this earth and this meant He endured greater suffering also than any of us can comprehend because He well knew the perils and problems of human life and was forebearing with us, while also knowing the Divine in Him.

A patient Educator Who patiently endured our faults and ignorance for our benefit and knowing our greater Good.

So i thought i'd offer this to you Adamante, my fellow Marine!

- Art
 

Thadius

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Wrong Question

The Question here is not did jesus know he was god but did god know he was god. Thom Thoery states that the Entity that you call God didnt know it was alive or we were alive until the conception of a half human half entity child. when jesus was born the two linked and jesus learnt of the entity and the entity learnt of humanity and this was the spark of " GODS " knowledgement of itself. If you want to know more about Thom theory email me at funkymunkey8@hotmail.com
THADIUS
 

arthra

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Thadius said:
The Question here is not did jesus know he was god but did god know he was god. Thom Thoery states that the Entity that you call God didnt know it was alive or we were alive until the conception of a half human half entity child. when jesus was born the two linked and jesus learnt of the entity and the entity learnt of humanity and this was the spark of " GODS " knowledgement of itself. If you want to know more about Thom theory email me at funkymunkey8@hotmail.com
THADIUS


Welcome Thadius to the forum!



- Art
 

gluadys

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What a rich discussion this is.

I subscribe to orthodox Trinitarian belief. I think it is important therefore to acknowledge that this belief is not stated directly in scripture, but is the outcome of three centuries of reflection on the relationship of Jesus of Nazareth to God the Father. And even then the debate was cut short by political exigencies and genuine consensus was never achieved.

Nevertheless, within its limitations, I feel the Trinity makes as much sense as possible of the experience of the early church.

Some further comments:


Mr Ecumenical said:
Jesus Christ represents the struggle of the human versus the Divine. He was both Human and God. Can you imagine that?

This would not be a Christian point-of-view and certainly not a Trinitarian one. The Council of Chalcedon, which defined the dual nature of Christ, explicitly recognized that the dual nature formed one integral person. Christ was not in conflict with himself. On the contrary, as the model of true humanity in communion with God, Christ was the epitome of spiritual wholeness.

DeaconJustin said:
Many believe that Christ was born as the Christ, already annointed with the Holy Spirit(Ruach ha Kodesh in Hebrew). However, they conveniently ignore the descent of the dove(often a symbol of the descent of the Holy Spirit) at Jesus's baptism in the river Jordan. In Judaism a ritual bath called a mikveh is given to new converts to symbolize a change in their status as well as ritual purity; it is also administered at times of significant change in a person's life, much like baptism marks a change from your previous life to a Christian life.

Indeed, there was (is?) a whole school of thought that held Jesus was "adopted" as the Son of God at his baptism, and that the Logos or Christ-spirit entered him at that time. The festival of Epiphany was originally associated with the baptism of Jesus (Epiphany=manifestation and the baptism was the manifestation of the divine in Jesus). After the Trinitarian view became official, the "manifestation" associated with the baptism was shifted to the visit of the wise men from the east, and the first manifestation of Christ to the Gentiles, while the remebrance of Jesus' baptism was shifted to the following Sunday and given lesser importance.

Trinitarians object to the adoptionist stance on the grounds that it divides the personality of Jesus. It suggests the repression of Jesus' human personality by the divine personality of Christ. So that the human is a mere tool of the divine, not a willingly obedient Son of God.

Alan_G said:
However, he also said when asked when the end of the world would come that "even the Son of Man does not know this and it is known only to the Father" (paraphrasing). Therefore he and God MUST logically be two different "beings" (for lack of a better word).

The "better word" chosen by the theologians of Nicaea was "hypostasis" which was translated into Latin as "persona" and thence into English as "person". It is important to remember that in Trinitarian thinking the Father is not a synonym for God, but is one person of God, just as the Son and Holy Spirit are.

So it is not a matter of God=Father and we find a way to shoehorn in Jesus and the Holy Spirit as other divinities. It is a matter of God=God and God = the totality of Father, Son and Spirit. Yet each person is also wholly God, not one-third of God.

In short, whether one's experience of the divine is an experience of the Father, of the Son or of the Holy Spirit, it is an experience of God in God's fullness. And it is always one and the same God. So the Father should not be thought of as being "more fully God" than the other two persons.

Alan_G said:
So I think we can look to Jesus (his teachings, etc.) when we find ourselves wondering "What is God like anyway?", because he did represent God perfectly, and even was God in the flesh -- However, there was and remains a separate being as well who is God now and was God before Jesus was born...

Not quite. The Logos or 2nd person of the Trinity is not a separate being from Jesus. Jesus is the Logos in human form. The Father and the Spirit are both different persons of the Trinity, but not different beings. However, incarnation is an attribute of the Son only, not the other persons.

Alan_G said:
Jesus, in the flesh, showed people of the day what God, who is Spirit, was like.

Exactly. And he also showed people of the day what humanity was created to be.

Arthra said:
Baha'is have a concept called the Manifestation of God and we believe that Jesus Christ was a Manifestation.

We believe a Manifestation is a pure mirror that reflects perfectly the attributes of God.

So if we were alive at the time of Jesus we wold turn to Him to see what God would be like as reflected in Him.

This is quite close to the way the writer of the letter to the Hebrews described Jesus. "He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being." Hebrews 1:3

This is one of many pre-Trinitarian descriptions of Christ. The imprint referred to here is that of a signet ring or seal. So we see the writer expressing the relationship of God's very being impressed into the human form of Jesus as the image on a signet ring is impressed onto the sealing wax of a document.

sachetm said:
Personally, I do not believe that Jesus was God and certainly do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. I think His creation does that and is his "word."

If by word of God one means a document dictated by God, then orthodox Christian teaching would agree that description does not fit the bible. In Christian thinking the Word of God revealed to humanity is Jesus of Nazareth, the incarnation of the Logos. The bible is not a direct word of God, but a witness to the primary Word of God, as written by humans who had been moved/inspired to write it by the Spirit. As a witness to the primordial Word of God, it is also referred to, secondarily, as the Word of God.

The sectarian versions of Christianity which give to the Bible the place which belongs to Christ are seen by orthodox Christians as idolators in that they place what is a human (though divinely-inspired) creation in the place of God.

In that vein, I think Jesus was a man who so completely experienced his connection to God that he became something "more" (whatever that is) than just an ordinary man. But if that's true, then that same ability resides within everyone.

And actually, this is quite orthodox Christianity, for we are all, upon redemption, adopted by the Spirit, and become children of God, so that Jesus may be the "first-born among many brethren" (Romans 8:29)


Adamante said:
God does not understand why we do what we do. He does not know why we have such trouble with temptations and the like. (Yes, I siad God does not know...that could land me into trouble!) In an effort to understand his creation, he tried to be one! Was it flawed? Well, perhaps it was. Jesus knew he was divine, and therefore would not have to face the judgement. Jesus did not have to have faith in any matter like we do, b/c he knew already what existed in the heavens, and of who he was of course. In an extremely limited way, he felt what it was like to be a man, to better understand his creation. Notice that in Genesis, he did at least seem surprised that Adam and Eve ate what they were told not to.

So...long winded answer! I think Jesus did know he was God. But in an way we can not understand, he was very limited and specialized...b/c he loved us and so he could see what our life was like in the form of a man.

Limiting God's knowledge won't get you into trouble with me. But the idea that God was "trying on" humanity in order to understand it falls afoul of Chrstian scripture in two respects.

You say, for example that since Jesus knew he was divine, he knew he would not have to face the judgement. Nor id he need to have faith in any matter like we do. But, from a Christian perspective Jesus' humanity was so complete that he was tested in every way like one of us. He did need faith to sustain the agony of Gethsemane and submit to the will of God.

The key text is the "kenosis" (=emptying) passage of Philippians 2:6-8
"who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himslef and became obedient to the point of death---even death on a cross."

So I disagree that Jesus knew himself to be divine, for he could not incarnate in human form without emptying himself of divine form, thus placing limits on his divine attributes.
 

arthra

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Interesting summary:

An interesting summary and I would agree with your remark that the Trinity developed as a doctrine over three hundred years ....and is to an extent extra Biblical.

Just speculating I think one could say that Doctrine became the centerpiece and determining factor for the developement of Christianity over the centuries... For other religions I think doctrine is important but not a deciding factor... there were "theological camps" in most religions say in Hinduism and Buddhism and indeed in Islam, but no Credo developed as in Christendom where it was at one time universally accepted, there were other factors that in the long term unified the religion.

To Baha'is the attributes of God are always perfectly reflected in a Manifestation ...the limitations are what the world imposes or tries to impose on God's Messengers.

But your enjoyed the summarization.

- Art :)
 

StrangeQuark

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exastra said:
Jesus was not God, and never claimed to be. he was "merely" an agent of God, showing us that we are of the divine. Jesus did not establish Christianity... the Church did, skewing his teaching. He called himself the Son of Man, not the Son of God. He certainly knew he was not God, but only spoke of/for God (which he accepted as an abstraction). He was a messenger, not the message. Jesus was only the candle, not the flame.

I don't know how right or wrong I am, this is just my belief:

Jesus Christ was the Word of God manifested in the flesh. This may sound very fundamentalist, but that's not really how I understand the Bible. But I still believe that Jesus *is* God's message personified. That isn't necessarily the same as saying he is *God*, however.
 

StrangeQuark

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As for Jesus' awareness of his "Divinity" I can only speculate. I *presume* he was aware of something, but I don't really know. Since his body was human that may have caused some disconnection with his origin. Since I believe that matter and spirit are somehow connected, it's hard to say. There appears to be an "illusion of separation" for one with this kind of belief, I think. There is an apparent separation of material objects that may be the reason for such an illusion. Therefore, it may be possible that a material manifestion of the Word would impose similar limits on Jesus' awareness, although I would suggest that he was probably *more* aware of his divine origin than most people are.
 

Mus Zibii

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Mr Ecumenical said:
Jesus Christ represents the struggle of the human versus the Divine. He was both Human and God. Can you imagine that?
That's the way I see it. Or prefer to see it. Almost kind of an atheist struggle. What would be the most offensive thing for a human to say in the presence of the pious? I am God. I believe, a certain group of Sufis were massacred for saying 'I am Allah' during the ecstasy of religious rituals.

The concept of trinity or God/Man seems strange coming from the pulpit, but if you look at it in a kind of Nietzschesque way it makes sense.
 

Thomas

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This is a mystery which can only be unfolded from the heart of the Trinity.

He knew in as much as He knew He was the Son of Man, and the onlybegotten Son of the Father.

Thus at the very outset he can know 'my hour has not yet come' yet at the end he can can ask 'take this cup from my lips lest thy will it be so'

Likewise he can know, on the cross, that he has been abandoned by God, and at the end know 'it is accomplished'.

The 'knowing' lies in the Spirit and the activity of the Third Person of the Trinity - so that to the Son is revealed what he needs to know when He needs to know it, and from the Son is taken when it needs be taken - thus again, Christ can tell the robber 'today thou shalt be with me in Paradise' and yet later cry out in desperation.

Thomas
 

faithfull

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exastra said:
Jesus was not God, and never claimed to be. he was "merely" an agent of God, showing us that we are of the divine. Jesus did not establish Christianity... the Church did, skewing his teaching. He called himself the Son of Man, not the Son of God. He certainly knew he was not God, but only spoke of/for God (which he accepted as an abstraction). He was a messenger, not the message. Jesus was only the candle, not the flame.
In the old testament Jehovah was Jesus Christ acticing under the direction of his father, which is our father to. We were begotten spirit sons and daughters before we came to this testing ground(earth). He did know he was the son of God and he said it. Yes he also said he was the son of man, meaning he came through the line of Adam and Eve as we all did and was born of Mary which had flesh and bone. He was part man, part God and he knew it. Jesus was not only the candle, he is the light of the world. We will all know it to when he comes again!
 

Quahom1

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faithfull said:
In the old testament Jehovah was Jesus Christ acticing under the direction of his father, which is our father to. We were begotten spirit sons and daughters before we came to this testing ground(earth). He did know he was the son of God and he said it. Yes he also said he was the son of man, meaning he came through the line of Adam and Eve as we all did and was born of Mary which had flesh and bone. He was part man, part God and he knew it. Jesus was not only the candle, he is the light of the world. We will all know it to when he comes again!
Hello Faithful and welcome to CR! ;)

I am taking the liberty of going back to first post on this thread, which asked when did Jesus know He was God.

I believe the first clue we have of Jesus' knowledge of who He is, is when He was 12 years old, and astounded the learned men in the Temple. He then advised His parents when they found Him "Don't you know that I am to be about my Father's work?" However, when He realized He had given his parents a fright, He subjected Himself to their authority (they weren't ready for Him to be about His Father's work, as He was just a child).;)

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faithfull

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Quahom1 said:
Hello Faithful and welcome to CR! ;)

I am taking the liberty of going back to first post on this thread, which asked when did Jesus know He was God.

I believe the first clue we have of Jesus' knowledge of who He is, is when He was 12 years old, and astounded the learned men in the Temple. He then advised His parents when they found Him "Don't you know that I am to be about my Father's work?" However, when He realized He had given his parents a fright, He subjected Himself to their authority (they weren't ready for Him to be about His Father's work, as He was just a child).;)

v/r

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Thanks
Have you read the Apocrypha? I don't know how much of it is true. But in it says that when the SAvior was a baby he told Mary he is the Son of God and people were being healed by the blankets he was wrapped in. Wow he was even healing people when he was a baby. But maybe then again he didn't quite know yet.

Matt. 21: 16
document.write(drawVerse(16,76078)); 16&nbsp16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
 

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if Jesus was God would not Jesus know he was God while still inside the womb?
how can God not know who he is at any given second.

from what i can see Jesus never did anything miraculous until after Jordan.
but you know that is just me and my good old trusty bible.
i could create questions upon questions for this, but I wont cause i love you all I dont want to try and confuse, even though this is my specialty:D .
 

Quahom1

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Bandit said:
if Jesus was God would not Jesus know he was God while still inside the womb?
how can God not know who he is at any given second.

from what i can see Jesus never did anything miraculous until after Jordan.
but you know that is just me and my good old trusty bible.
i could create questions upon questions for this, but I wont cause i love you all I dont want to try and confuse, even though this is my specialty:D .
Most likely he did, however I believe His human parents were wise enough to know that if someone like Herod would kill Jesus in infancy and toddlerhood, they'd have no problem going after a young boy. I is clear from scripture that He knew who he was at the age of 12 (as God), but he had some earthly lessons to learn as a human (like don't scare your parents to death...).:D

Remember they searched for Jesus for three days, while He astounded the learned men in the Temple... He assumed his parents knew he had a mission. Assuming is not a sin, but can startle those not expecting it.

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arthra

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faithfull said:
Thanks
Have you read the Apocrypha? I don't know how much of it is true. But in it says that when the SAvior was a baby he told Mary he is the Son of God and people were being healed by the blankets he was wrapped in. Wow he was even healing people when he was a baby. But maybe then again he didn't quite know yet.

This idea that Jesus spoke as an infant is very similar to the Qur'anic verses where as an infant Jesus vendicates His mother:

"I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given Me rebvelation and made Me a Prophet..." See verses 27 through 34 in Surih "Maryam" 19.

A similar legend is found after the Buddha is born where He walks after birth.

What these legends convey to me is that Jesus was special from His birth and conception.

Baha'is also accept that He was born miraculously and was a perfect Mirror reflecting the attributes of God from the beginning.
 

Quahom1

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arthra said:
This idea that Jesus spoke as an infant is very similar to the Qur'anic verses where as an infant Jesus vendicates His mother:

"I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given Me rebvelation and made Me a Prophet..." See verses 27 through 34 in Surih "Maryam" 19.

A similar legend is found after the Buddha is born where He walks after birth.

What these legends convey to me is that Jesus was special from His birth and conception.

Baha'is also accept that He was born miraculously and was a perfect Mirror reflecting the attributes of God from the beginning.
Thank you Arthra! That is thought provoking (in a great way!) ;)

v/r

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didymus

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I personally don't believe Jesus was or is God. I believe he was completely filled with God's spirit and performed miracles. It was obviously a calling he had from childhood and it eventually blossomed into a tremendous faith in the Father and His will for him.

At no point did Jesus say he was God. The real reference to Jesus being God came in the gospel of John. In the preceding letters and gospels there is no direct mention of it by Jesus himself.
 

Quahom1

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didymus said:
I personally don't believe Jesus was or is God. I believe he was completely filled with God's spirit and performed miracles. It was obviously a calling he had from childhood and it eventually blossomed into a tremendous faith in the Father and His will for him.

At no point did Jesus say he was God. The real reference to Jesus being God came in the gospel of John. In the preceding letters and gospels there is no direct mention of it by Jesus himself.
Hello Did,

Technically you are absolutely correct. Jesus never once said He was God. The closest thing He ever said that might make us think of Him as God (directly) was these words, "I Am Who Am...I Am the Alpha and The Omega". From one's perspective, I think that raises many questions, for many people.

v/r

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