if god made us perfect or good
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Pico
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Because we were given free will, and Eve was tricked by the Devil, then (men having a rebelous nature) Adam went along with Eve and ate the fruit too. They both knew God gave them a direct commandment to not eat from the tree but they did anyway.
Essentialy, Adam (the spokesperson for all mankind) was telling God that he didn't want to obey his rules, and wanted to do what he wanted. I'm sure everyone you know would have everything their way if they could.
Essentialy, Adam (the spokesperson for all mankind) was telling God that he didn't want to obey his rules, and wanted to do what he wanted. I'm sure everyone you know would have everything their way if they could.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
because we were supposed to
sometimes I feel moved deep down when I read christian explanations to things and I think god is showing me the truth of that statement.
but neither of those respponses moved me.
how could good or perfect beings disobey god while knowing it? if they are perfect there is no such thing as free will, they can only do perfect things, same goes for if they are good, they can only do good things. free will only impacts us if we are fallen. because then we have the knowledge of good and evil. right?
and if we were supposed to. what else was supposed to happen?
is everything that happens supposed to happen?
but neither of those respponses moved me.
how could good or perfect beings disobey god while knowing it? if they are perfect there is no such thing as free will, they can only do perfect things, same goes for if they are good, they can only do good things. free will only impacts us if we are fallen. because then we have the knowledge of good and evil. right?
and if we were supposed to. what else was supposed to happen?
is everything that happens supposed to happen?
Pico
Well-Known Member
You say we only have free will because we are fallen, and konw the difference of good and evil.
Adam and Eve both knew what was right and wrong to do because God said "Don't eat the fruit from the tree." So God created the posability of sin by putting that tree there and giving man free will to obey him or to disobey him.
Now why would God do that, you may ask? It's because God wants man to choose to be with him. If there was no choice in obeying God, what significance does that have to God? If we can choose to obey him or disobey him, isnt' it far more valuable to God when we willingly choose Him?
Now why would God let us sin and mess everything up? Well I believe it's so that we could understand just how much he loves us. He plays the role of Creator, Savior, and Redeemer. Scenerio: God creates the perfect world, and Gives man dominion over it. Man disobeys God, and the result is a really messed up world we made, along with being spiritualy dead to God. God could have left us alone in our strife because that's really what we deserve. But instead he showed us how much he loved us by punishing himself instead of us, just so that we can be with him.
The part of him redeeming us completely blows my mind, in that for ever and eternity God teh Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always been together, for they are one. Before Jesus was about to take the punshment he was praying to God "Anything is possible for you. Please don't let this happen to me. But i want your will, not mine." Jesus said that God could do anything, but his answer was that this was the way it has to be. When God punished Jesus for the sins of mankind, Jesus had to be completely and utterly cut of from him. Jesus was so stressed out and upseat about this fate that he was litteraly sweating blood (which is physiologicaly possible that someone could be so stressed out that their pores secrete blood).
For the first time ever the Son would be totaly seperated from the Father; something which never had to happen. But God did this to show us how much we mean to him, how much he loves us, and how much he wants us to be with him. I cannot begin to fathom what that must be like, but Jesus (God in the flesh, who's seen things you couldn't possibly imagine) was utterly terrified of this fate. I can't imagine a more loving God.
Pico
Well-Known Member
There are some that are specific, and some not so specific. What is it you question and I will do my best to answer.
Dor
Bible Thumper
Cause a serpent tricked them
Why do you?
LeoSalinas22
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do you have a girlfriend or wife, shadow? because if you do, then you will know that if you love her so much, that you will do whatever it takes to please her. i am answering this as a man. this is where my imagination runs wild so bear with me. before the fall, they were perfect right? they were in God's glory. full of light. so eve eats the fruit, she loses the glory. are you with me? so then there is this perfect woman and i mean WHOA-man! adam sees a woman just the way they look today, right? so adam, sees eve, the most purest and beautiful woman in the world. so he is dumbfounded, just like any normal dude today falls for a gorgeous a woman, so he falls for her. now, it could be that he also loved her so much that when he saw the way she was, he felt sorry for her, so he bit the fruit to be with her. point being, it is prophecy about the way men are with women today. look at women, though, they mature more quickly than men do, right? i know that that is a result of eve taking the fruit of knowledge of good and evil first. then there is the adversary, well we all know his story right?. i hope this helps. praise God from everlasting to everlasting...
Dondi
Well-Known Member
I'm confused. Didn't Adam and Eve know each other before the fall? Didn't Adam in Genesis 2:23 say,
"This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
And in verse 25:
"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."
But Leo, you're making it sound like Adam didn't first come upon Eve until after she ate the fruit. Are you saying that Eve wasn't perfect and beautiful and desireable before the fall? Did not God command them to "Be fruitful and multiply". I guarantee you I'd be obeying that commandment if I had a babe like that!
I don't think sexual desire was created after the fall. But rather it was distorted to lust.
My take on Adam is that he didn't want to be alone again. He may have had sense enough to believe that if Eve fell, then she was outta here, and he'd be left alone in the garden...again.
LeoSalinas22
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from what i understand by reading scripture is that there may be 2 reasons why they may not have had sex. 1. unless adam was pulling out, which i doubt completely, they didn't have cain and abel until after the fall. 2. the other reason may be, and this makes complete sense to me, ( remember, my imagination is running wild, i don't want to be a stumbling block to my brother) is that they were still children at the time. in other words, they couldn't reproduce, yet. now, you ask, then why does God call them, man. well, if you read further in Genisis, God calls male and female Adam. point being, even children are "man". now when i said that adam and eve were glorious, i mean that literally, like when moses returned from talking with God and they had to cover him because he was emitting a light too bright for anyone to behold, also like when Christ was resurrected in full glory, he literally is glorious. too glorious to see with flesh eyes. well adam and eve were like this as well, but they ate the fuit and they lost the glory, revealing what you see today, corrupted flesh by sin. well, by all means prove me wrong, i am still learning myself. sorry if i offend or confuse anyone. hope i don't sound too, preachy. thanks
because he wants me to?
Im getting there I think. its impossible to deny the call right?
my real answer is I dont know Im Afraid that the whole thing is plain nuts. but im too scared of hell to hold out for much longer. I have no future anyway god hasnt shown me his plans for me.
does god only have plans for people after he saves them.
does he have a plan for everyone?
does his plan include them going to hell?
does it make god sad when people go to hell? it must not right.
is hell kind of like the rock that god cant lift?
free will right? he created something that he cant control except in the end he fixes the outcome...
does that make you think about anythign at all?
Pico
Well-Known Member
Well that's tough to say. The combination of God's plan and our free will is hard to understand simply because we aren't God. The way I think of it is that God knows what choices we will make, based on what happens to us, and he knows how those choices will effect everything else in the world. So is take it that "God's Plan" is the way he knows what's going to happen, because he knows everything.
Jesus said "Many are called, but few are chosen." God calls everyone because he wants everyone to come to him. But it's an act of your fee will to answer the call.
Well, unless you repent to God and ask for his forgiveness, you are still spiritualy dead to God, which is probably why you dont' know his plan for you yet. Once you are forgiven, you recieve the Holy Spirit who is always with you (as God has promised). The Holy Spirit talks to you and reveals things to you as you get closer to God (such as his plan for you), plus you usualy have to ask God and be persistant in asking.
God has a plan for everybody, only that the people who arent' saved have no idea what it is.
I guess in a way it does, but that doesn't make it his fault that people turn away and refuse him out of their own free will.
Oh yes. God doesn't like having to do it. But he simply must because of the choices his image bearers have made.
Of course not. It says in Revelation that God will cast Hell, death, and Satan into the lake of fire (which is figurative for God's Judgement). God is sovergn and all powerful.
God influences. God can also controll through his Spirit, but only if you let him. It's a tough thing for us to do but it is possible.
Yes
One thing I've thought of is this analogy: God whispers to us, but Satan throws fire-crackers at us. Simply, God will put in your heart what the right thing to do is, but Satan will do ANYTHING he can to get you away from it/ignore it. I'm sure many Christians can vouch for that from experience.It seems to me from what you said was that God knows of this fear of Hell you have, so he's trying to use that to get you to come to him. Whereas Satan is trying to dissuade you by saying "It's just f-ing nuts!" God wants you to come to him by faith; faith cannot exist without doubt, because then it would be knowledge.
17th Angel
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Good question, I got an even better answer though.....
Because we can/could. (and that is an amazing thing, maybe not such a benefitting outcome of the choice, but we have/had that choice.)
Rewards the outcome...... My dogs can do the hell they want... But certain choices, I will reward them with a "fixed outcome" A treat, a rub of the belly...... I tell them to laydown, that is totally up to them, I won't force them lol, but if they don't there is no reward (yet another "fixed" outcome..... But there is a reward for doing my will
)It is easy to have freewill and fate co-inside... In my opinion.... I miss shadow... He tried so hard to keep tripping people up lol.... Maybe he has grown... Maybe one day see him again.
Importance of Correct Viewpoint.
For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called "perfect" is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation.
Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God. Because of this Jesus could say of his Father: "Nobody is good, except one, God." (Mr 10:18)
For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called "perfect" is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation.
Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God. Because of this Jesus could say of his Father: "Nobody is good, except one, God." (Mr 10:18)
Well knock me down for I agree with Mee!
God made man good, but only God is perfect.
There is a broader view of 'good' as well, there's the good of not being naughty, and the good of something being fit-for-purpose. When God created man, he had the end of man in mind ... so the good of man is also the destiny to which man is intended.
This is the problem ... man wants to decide his own destiny, or failing that, decide how he journeys to the destiny he does not know ... neither of these two are 'good' as such.
... and we still do. More than ever, in this day and age, the rights of the individual to self-determination are held highest of all human values. Even in the face of God we decide how we want to believe, and in what, and in what ways any demand can be placed upon us ... anything that does not suit my appetites is unjust ... It's the same sin as Adam in continuum.
Thomas
God made man good, but only God is perfect.
There is a broader view of 'good' as well, there's the good of not being naughty, and the good of something being fit-for-purpose. When God created man, he had the end of man in mind ... so the good of man is also the destiny to which man is intended.
This is the problem ... man wants to decide his own destiny, or failing that, decide how he journeys to the destiny he does not know ... neither of these two are 'good' as such.
... and we still do. More than ever, in this day and age, the rights of the individual to self-determination are held highest of all human values. Even in the face of God we decide how we want to believe, and in what, and in what ways any demand can be placed upon us ... anything that does not suit my appetites is unjust ... It's the same sin as Adam in continuum.
Thomas
17th Angel
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Dream
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Shadowman`s opening question said:
I think I hear what you're saying and agree. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Whatever it was Adam did, I would have made/and do often make similar choices. I'm of the same stock as Adam, and I am always having to fight my impulsive nature in order to do the right thing.Alex answer said:
Additionally
Paul summarized his opinion on the sin in the garden by referring to Isaiah chapter 40. He mentions two verses out of the chapter, which I have transcribed here, however his intention is for us to go over that section of Isaiah and think about it for ourselves.
which refers to -->Romans 11:32-33 said:
The high places, represent the prophets and those who are spiritually up high, and the low places are those who are furthest from God. The glory of the L!RD as Paul represents it, probably has a lot to do with the vindication of the L!RD and his righteous judgment.Isaiah 40:4-5...13-14 said:
Paul's point: Adam will always be tempted to eat the apple and cannot be given eternal life just as he is. The creation demonstrates the correctness of God's judgment and Vindicates God vs. the wicked. This demonstration is actively opposed by humanity which accuses God of unfair judgment and cruelty. Humanity disagrees with the existence of both death and pain, however God uses nations, including Israel, and individuals as a living eternally compelling argument in his favor. God has, according to Paul, already demonstrated He has just cause to destroy mankind as well the right to rescue and to discipline the faithful. Throughout the Bible, the theme is always the righteousness of God. God will ultimately demonstrate that his judgment is good. Think of it as not the exact opposite, but very opposed to the Dr. Who theme where mankind is fantastic as-is and-also eternal.
Psalm 98:2-3 said:
17th Angel
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It must be remembered that perfection as it relates to humans is a relative perfection, limited to the human sphere.
Though created perfect, Adam could not go beyond the limits assigned him by his Creator; he could not eat dirt, gravel, or wood without suffering ill effects; if he tried to breathe water instead of air, he would drown.
Similarly, if he allowed his mind and heart to feed on wrong thoughts, this would lead to entertaining wrong desires and finally bring sin and death.—Jas 1:14, 15; compare Ge 1:29; Mt 4:4.
Though created perfect, Adam could not go beyond the limits assigned him by his Creator; he could not eat dirt, gravel, or wood without suffering ill effects; if he tried to breathe water instead of air, he would drown.
Similarly, if he allowed his mind and heart to feed on wrong thoughts, this would lead to entertaining wrong desires and finally bring sin and death.—Jas 1:14, 15; compare Ge 1:29; Mt 4:4.