A very important alchemic scripture is translated

Discussion in 'Tao' started by alphone, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. alphone

    alphone New Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2008
  2. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Admin, the above links don't take my Mozilla anywhere except a sales site that sells baby clothes and other miscellaneous items.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I did not caption the links the same as the old, I simply posted the links and the url wrote the captions, which make me think I found the same links.

    But I do notice the translation listed has a date eight months after the original posting.

    (Translated into English by Silfong Tsun)
    (Dec/19/2007)
     
  5. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    What? Is this not enough for you??! What do you want, man?! :p

    It is also a little-known fact that alchemists were not only after the recipe to turn lead into gold (and of course, all of the metaphysical implications thereof), but that many were ardently pursuing the elusive recipes to turn disused internet links into links advertising baby clothes and gothic clothes.

    Eureka!!!
     
  6. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Now that's my idea of an ideal situation: a world where my whining gets results! Thanks, everybody, for a dream come true!
     
  7. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    What are the upside and downside?

    Chris
     
  8. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    You need a map:
    Eight Trigrams Chart for the I Ching (Book of Changes)

    Although this site lists "Ken" as "First Daughter" instead of "Youngest Son," and "Tui" as "First Son" instead of "Youngest Daughter."
     
  9. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    The above site doesn't really give you the critical information you need. Here's a wiki article
    Bagua (concept) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Notice the difference between "earlier heaven" and "later heaven?"
    It's all about change. Alchemy is an attempt to manipulate change in order to effect transmutation...
     
  10. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Thanks SG, I'll give it a more in depth look when I have some quiet time.

    Chris
     
  11. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    I don't know what 'those hundred days' or 'fire timing' means, but I appreciate that this poem's author tries to 'dig the needle out of the haystack' for us. There are translations for the words and symbols, but I get the feeling that this poem outlines mental exercises. I wonder whether his alchemical instructions are literal, since they seem to involve so much self-awareness. Probably they are about transmuting the body's internal energies through visualization?
     
  12. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Well, the desire to impose change on others to shape them according to your will would require a more material interpretation, would it not? ;)
     
  13. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Ok, I've read a little and am up to speed, now. The fire is one of the 'Changes', so the fire timing has to do with the frequency of a particular cycle. A cycle in our thinking, usually.
     
  14. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Thanks, Seattlegal. So it ties in with what you were saying in the other thread. So have you ever implemented I Ching and made the hexagrams?
     
  15. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    I've studied them, and learned how to do both the traditional yarrow stalk oracle and the coin oracle, but I don't use it for divination. I've approached it from the standpoint of learning a binary language (based upon 2 and 3 instead of 1 and 0.) It comes in handy when reading Taoist texts. Here's an example that Chris has brought up before:

    **Please note** This is sg's subjective interpretation only. I'm sure that there are many who will disagree with this interpretation.**

    Tao Te Ching 3

    Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to
    keep the people from rivalry among themselves; not to prize articles
    which are difficult to procure is the way to keep them from becoming
    thieves; not to show them what is likely to excite their desires is
    the way to keep their minds from disorder.

    Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties
    their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens
    their bones.


    He constantly (tries to) keep them without knowledge and without
    desire, and where there are those who have knowledge, to keep them
    from presuming to act (on it). When there is this abstinence from
    action, good order is universal.​

    Another term for emptying their heads and filling their bellies is "putting the fire in the water." If you look at the "Later Heaven" Pagua, you will notice "Li" (fire) at the top (head) and "Kan" (water) at the bottom (belly), which will transform Li into Chen, and Kan into Kun.

    Compare to Tao Te Ching 60:

    Governing a great state is like cooking small fish.

    Let the kingdom be governed according to the Tao, and the manes of
    the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy. It is not that
    those manes have not that spiritual energy, but it will not be
    employed to hurt men. It is not that it could not hurt men, but
    neither does the ruling sage hurt them.

    When these two do not injuriously affect each other, their good
    influences converge in the virtue (of the Tao).​

    :D This is how you cook small fish in China:

    • Take a sturdy pot of water with a lid, and add your cleaned whole small fish {Called yu, which also means individual prosperity. ;) } and cover with enough water so that each individual fish has enough room to "swim."
    • Remove the fish from the kettle, and add some soy sauce and some sliced ginger to the water.
    • Put the kettle on the heat and bring the water to the boil.
    • Turn off the heat and move the kettle away from the stove.
    • Add the fish to the kettle, making sure each still has enough room to "swim," toss in some fresh, clean spinach, put the lid on, and let the fish and spinach steep off the heat for about 10-15 minutes (depending on the size of your fish), or until done.
    • Place the cooked spinach on the serving platter, sprinkle with rice wine vinegar and soy sauce, and arrange the fish on top of the bed of spinach. Drizzle toasted sesame oil over the fish.
    • Everybody eats! :D


    My subjective interpretation suspiciously matches my political views of minimal government, the channeling of individual aggression towards the development of individual prosperity (putting the fire in the water,) along with allowing each individual enough (religious and ideological, as well as economic) freedom and tolerance so they can each "swim." {Gee, are my biases showing? :p }
     
  16. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    That is a very old management trick that works wonders. In that case however it sounds not like harmony but instead stratification because the implementor is separate from the implement-ees. A company party (for instance) is often as effective as a small bonus. Perhaps that situation should be reserved for gods only, because it certainly can create them. I can see why you prefer minimal government.
     
  17. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Slight tangent to the topic, but your post reminds me of Megadeth's Symphony of Destruction :eek:
     
  18. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Yeah, that music fits. I'm sure I've heard that somewhere before, too.

    There are 64 (or 2^6) hexagrams in Wen's system. There are only 2^6 = 64 permutations in six binary bits. Wen has used every permutation of the yin-yang lines on his hexagram wheel, which is similar to a chart of the possible patters held by 6 computer bits. The difference is the arrangement. Computer bits are arranged for ease of mathematical manipulation, while Wen's lines are arranged for symmetry. The I Ching system also defined operators much like the XOR, and OR operators in computing. It must have been very interesting for I Ching'rs when the Computer Revolution suddenly took over the world.
     
  19. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    The "moving lines" in the hexagrams could be considered analogous to XOR in that it flips bits, but it uses different rules, and arises from the coding itself. It is used as an indicator that always predicts change for the area from which it arose, rather than the "not always changed" results from XOR, (which is applied from the outside, rather than arising from the data itself.) If you look at the way the I Ching operators are determined, you will see that it is based upon probabilities, as quantum physics computations are, while XOR is based upon a formula, like classic physics. (Does this mean that if we ever develop quantum computers, the I Ching operators will be more applicable than the formulas used in today's computers?)
     
  20. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    What can be automated?

    Designing a computer is finding a way to mask undesired quantum results, so that you have a predictable answer every time. We already have in the labs some quantum devices that can mimic a coin-toss, but how is that better than a human being that tosses a coin?

    Predictability has always been the result of relative scale. If you are large and I am small, then I will seem to you faster and more unpredictable. To me, you will appear slow and moving in a single predictable direction, like the 'Instantaneous' vector of a planet or star. The smaller I am, the more random I appear to be to you, whether I am truly random or not. When I was new to the forum I was unpredictable, small, and poorly understood. The existing players were large, well known, and relatively predictable.
     

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