How do different vultures promote dignity differently?
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17th Angel
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Any particular culture or time frame? As dignity is quite brief it means so much... And also to say culture.. That too is brief. Is this just a wide research or what?
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So really more directed at religion not culture? I see... Ok then. 
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Well have you looked at clothing? Compare how each of these religions, present, themselves.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
I thot vultures wore feathers
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
What would you like to know about how Muslim women dress?
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Could you clarify a little exactly what you mean by dignify, and what aspects of culture i.e. individuals, institutions, elites etc.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
dig·ni·ty
/ˈdɪg
–noun, plural -ties. 1.bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation. 2.nobility or elevation of character; worthiness: dignity of sentiments. 3.elevated rank, office, station, etc. 4.relative standing; rank. 5.a sign or token of respect: an impertinent question unworthy of the dignity of an answer.
I assume you want to know if the way we dress has something to do with one or more of the above definitions? Sorry this answer will be so long but it is such an important topic for Muslim women and I am pleased to have the opportunity to explain.
I don't know if you have any knowledge at all about Islam so I will just try to explain and if you don't understand anything just let me know and I will expand.
Before we start I need you to understand that despite certain misconceptions, women are very highly regarded in Islam and the protection of our modesty and dignity is paramount. If you want evidence of this just let me know.
Also what men (husbands/fathers/brothers etc) want has nothing to do with it, I dress this way for Allah (G-d) and Him alone. Yes if my husband disapproves of something I want to wear and can explain to me why it is not deemed as an Islamic mode of dress I will not wear it but only because it would displease Allah not because my husband doesnt like it.
Ask yourself a question, if you went to court and the female judge was wearing a mini skirt, showing her cleavage and her long hair flowing - would you take her seriously? What if she was a surgeon, a lawyer, politician, etc. As a Muslim woman I want to be taken seriously, respected and not seen as a 'play thing'.
The basic rules are to cover ourselves, except face and hands, and to wear loose clothes that do not show the shape of our bodies. We must also wear of material thick enough so that our shape cannot be seen through the material.
The most common question re our dress is Why?
The Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings upon him) said "Every religion has a special character and the characteristic of Islam is modesty". He also said "Modesty and faith are joined closely together and if either of them is lost the other goes also".
As a Muslim you cannot sperate out faith and modesty, they go hand in hand, without one you cannot have the other.
So despite the misconceptions of men forcing us to dress the way we do, you can see from the following verses of the Quran that Muslim women choose to dress this way as a submission to Allah (G-d).
The Quran (Koran) says
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. (24:31)
The Quran also says:
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them [when they go abroad]. That will be better, that so they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful (59:33)
In this verse Allah tells us to cover ouselves in order to be recognised as Muslims and therefore not bothered by male attention.
People often do not realise that Muslim men are also ordered to be modest in dress and life, they cannot wear gold or silk, they must never dress to show anything between the navel and knees, etc. In fact the verse telling men to be modest comes before the verse re women, as follows:
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. (24:31)
So when I am in my home I do not cover my hair, I can wear tight fitting clothes, see through materials, etc. I can remain dressed like this (within reason, obviously not a bikini) if I am in the presence of my immediate family or my husbands immediate family but if say a cousin of my husband comes to visit then I must cover my hair and body. The reason is modesty, I do not want to be seen as an object of desire to any man but my husband. One can assume my immediate family and husbands immediate family would not see me in this way but a cousin could be tempted to think of me in this way, leading one or both of us into sin.
This must be explained. Let us assume my husbands cousin is not married. Muslims are to remain pure (virgins) until marriage. Now, he pops round for a cup of coffee and I am lounging on the sofa dressed in thin clothing, with my hair flowing over my shoulders. It does not matter if I am beautiful or not, I am a symbol of what is forbidden to him until he marries. So he sips his tea and stares at my cleavage, what thoughts will go through his head? My husband is also in the position of trying to have a friendly chat with his cousin (or friend or whatever) while knowing he is staring at his wifes cleavage, this will make my husband jealous and may cause bad feeling between the men.
If the cousin even imagines certain acts he is commiting adultery and I am behaving in such a way that causes this adultery - hence I am also committing adultery. When put like that it sounds extreme but think about it, how many times have you looked at a girl in a bar or on a beach and imagined certain things? Try to remember a time that you have been with a friend and you cant take your eyes off his new girlfriend/wife, remember what goes through your mind. So in order to respect my husband, his cousin and myself I ensure that I am dressed in a way that will not cause these difficulties to arise.
Hope I have explained that well enough for you to understand. The same goes for men of course, if I have a friend to visit and my husband is wearing small shorts that shows a certain bulge, her mind may wander. So in short we not only dress modestly to protect and respect ourselves but also to protect and respect those around us.
Obviously this is also the reason we dress modestly when outside the house, which is even more important - who wants to be oggled by strangers?
The Quran is not so specific as to womens dress, so we look to the Ahadith (traditions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)) and we find this:
"Ayesha (R) reported that Asmaa the daughter of Abu Bakr (R) came to the Messenger of Allah (S) while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: 'O Asmaa! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands." (Abu Dawood)
This is why we cover our hair.
The last point I would like to make is why some Muslim women also cover their hands and faces (including eyes). I do not do this so do not want to speak for the sisters who choose to but I found the following paragraph on USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts
The question of hijab for Muslim women has been a controversy for centuries and will probably continue for many more. Some learned people do not consider the subject open to discussion and consider that covering the face is required, while a majority are of the opinion that it is not required. A middle line position is taken by some who claim that the instructions are vague and open to individual discretion depending on the situation. The wives of the Prophet (S) were required to cover their faces so that men would not think of them in sexual terms since they were the "Mothers of the Believers," but this requirement was not extended to other women.
Hope this is of some help to you. If you have any further questions just ask I will be happy to answer if I can.
Francis king
Well-Known Member
followed u here from ur last post, muslimwoman...
in ur last post u said that u dressed for Allah, not for men, yet...
...if ur husband dissaproves of ur clothing u will not wear it... u say this is because u would not want to offend Allah, but why would it offend Him? Reading between the lines that comment suggests to me that offending the husband is also offending Allah, which worries me...
...again, u say- "if you went to court and the female judge was wearing a mini skirt, showing her cleavage and her long hair flowing - would you take her seriously? What if she was a surgeon, a lawyer, politician, etc. As a Muslim woman I want to be taken seriously, respected and not seen as a 'play thing'
yes, I would take a judge seriously if she wore a mini skirt, although I might in the back of my mind view her as a bit of a goer... I would, in fact, respect her more than a woman in a long skirt, purely because she works in a male dominated enviroment and she has not felt compelled to be anything other than she is...
u see "The basic rules are to cover ourselves, except face and hands, and to wear loose clothes that do not show the shape of our bodies. We must also wear of material thick enough so that our shape cannot be seen through the material"... it just seems silly to me...
The Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings upon him) said "Every religion has a special character and the characteristic of Islam is modesty". He also said "Modesty and faith are joined closely together and if either of them is lost the other goes also".
...most other patriarchal institutions say the same thing, incidentally... Islam is no different here than christianity, or Judaism, or Buddhism. We are all told that women should not be sexy unless they are married, that scrubbers are unholy... it appears God loves women, but only if they are subservient wallflowers who don't like sex... seems a cruel trick then to coerce them into marrige, into a union which by definition the good and holy women dont like...
The Quran (Koran) says
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty (euphemism for breasts?) except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs (eunuchs?), or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. (24:31)
The Quran also says:
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them [when they go abroad]. That will be better, that so they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful (59:33)
In this verse Allah tells us to cover ouselves in order to be recognised as Muslims and therefore not bothered by male attention.
so, we do do this for men's sake, after all... it please Allah if women are subservient to men! result!
u then mention that being modest means that there is no trouble between men, and then....
"If the cousin even imagines certain acts he is commiting adultery and I am behaving in such a way that causes this adultery - hence I am also committing adultery"
and yes, that does sound extreme... whats the punishment for adultery? stoning? so, u as a women shall be stoned to death because some man has looked at ur breasts? whats right about that? Ah, I see...
yes, I look at girls and boys on the beach and think.... mmm... he's tasty, she's got lovely boobs, etc, whats wrong with that? That isnt adultery. Adultery is having sex with ppl when u are married that u are not married to. Looking at someone elses bum in a nice pair of shorts is what summers are for...
u say that "The Quran is not so specific as to womens dress, so we look to the Ahadith (traditions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)) and we find...
some guy has said that as soon Asmaa starts her periods she should cover herself up...
so, nothing to do with Allah and the Quran at all, then?
hope u don't feel I'm stalking u muslimwomen, but had to answer...
back to the post, then...
how do different cultures promote dignity?
In buddhism, there are certain rules about decency also. If I go to a monastery, then I dress conservatively so I do not tempt the celibate monks from their path. That is rational, and understandable. There are different rules for lay people and monastics, and again, this is reasonable. I shouldn't show the soles of my feet to lamas, or point my dirty feet in the direction of Buddha, as it is considered disrespectful to do this. However, this is not a buddhist belief, but an Asian custom which now appears to be a buddhist one. Monastics are not allowed to wear adornments (jewellery), and they are not supposed to use perfumes either. Again, this is so monks and nuns do not view each other as sexual beings, as they are generally celibate. Apart from monastic rules, and not showing priests ur dirty feet, and trying to be respectful in attire, there are no rules.
Cultures, en masse, do not promote dignity. Nor does religion. Dignity is a societal construct, and what works for me in my society might not work in yours. Neither of us are especially wrong, we are just different. It bothers me that dignity becomes a form of social control. In China, many years ago, it was considered dignified to have small feet. This practise resulted in the crippling of many millions of women, and eventually the practise was outlawed. In England, it was considered dignified to have a small waist, and women would starve themselves to fit into tightly laced corsets and have ribs removed. Neither of these practises is particularly dignified, and both of these practises were designed to create "perfect" women, to objectify women, to make being female all about ur tiny lotus feet, or ur small waist, or ur large breasts, or ur long multi-tonal hair... women are constantly bombarded with this idea that they need to do something to themselves to be better women, to be more acceptable, to be more attractive, yet at the same time, they are told that women who like sex, and women who fart, and are a bit fat, and who have short hair and big feet, are not good enough... the scolds bridle was a device invented to keep still the tongues of women who moaned at their menfolk, and was a metal contraption which had a bar which went into the mouth to hold the tongue down... today, the scolds bridle is dignity, and modesty...
down with oppression! fart in elevators! swear like a fishwife! expose ur wanton flesh with pride! watch them weak silly men swoon while u expose ur well toned calves in mini skirts, tempt them with ur rounded shoulders and sweet smelling bodies... dignity is a con! say no to the myth of the virginial whore!
in ur last post u said that u dressed for Allah, not for men, yet...
...if ur husband dissaproves of ur clothing u will not wear it... u say this is because u would not want to offend Allah, but why would it offend Him? Reading between the lines that comment suggests to me that offending the husband is also offending Allah, which worries me...
...again, u say- "if you went to court and the female judge was wearing a mini skirt, showing her cleavage and her long hair flowing - would you take her seriously? What if she was a surgeon, a lawyer, politician, etc. As a Muslim woman I want to be taken seriously, respected and not seen as a 'play thing'
yes, I would take a judge seriously if she wore a mini skirt, although I might in the back of my mind view her as a bit of a goer... I would, in fact, respect her more than a woman in a long skirt, purely because she works in a male dominated enviroment and she has not felt compelled to be anything other than she is...
u see "The basic rules are to cover ourselves, except face and hands, and to wear loose clothes that do not show the shape of our bodies. We must also wear of material thick enough so that our shape cannot be seen through the material"... it just seems silly to me...
The Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings upon him) said "Every religion has a special character and the characteristic of Islam is modesty". He also said "Modesty and faith are joined closely together and if either of them is lost the other goes also".
...most other patriarchal institutions say the same thing, incidentally... Islam is no different here than christianity, or Judaism, or Buddhism. We are all told that women should not be sexy unless they are married, that scrubbers are unholy... it appears God loves women, but only if they are subservient wallflowers who don't like sex... seems a cruel trick then to coerce them into marrige, into a union which by definition the good and holy women dont like...
The Quran (Koran) says
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty (euphemism for breasts?) except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs (eunuchs?), or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. (24:31)
The Quran also says:
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them [when they go abroad]. That will be better, that so they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful (59:33)
In this verse Allah tells us to cover ouselves in order to be recognised as Muslims and therefore not bothered by male attention.
so, we do do this for men's sake, after all... it please Allah if women are subservient to men! result!
u then mention that being modest means that there is no trouble between men, and then....
"If the cousin even imagines certain acts he is commiting adultery and I am behaving in such a way that causes this adultery - hence I am also committing adultery"
and yes, that does sound extreme... whats the punishment for adultery? stoning? so, u as a women shall be stoned to death because some man has looked at ur breasts? whats right about that? Ah, I see...
yes, I look at girls and boys on the beach and think.... mmm... he's tasty, she's got lovely boobs, etc, whats wrong with that? That isnt adultery. Adultery is having sex with ppl when u are married that u are not married to. Looking at someone elses bum in a nice pair of shorts is what summers are for...
u say that "The Quran is not so specific as to womens dress, so we look to the Ahadith (traditions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)) and we find...
some guy has said that as soon Asmaa starts her periods she should cover herself up...
so, nothing to do with Allah and the Quran at all, then?
hope u don't feel I'm stalking u muslimwomen, but had to answer...
back to the post, then...
how do different cultures promote dignity?
In buddhism, there are certain rules about decency also. If I go to a monastery, then I dress conservatively so I do not tempt the celibate monks from their path. That is rational, and understandable. There are different rules for lay people and monastics, and again, this is reasonable. I shouldn't show the soles of my feet to lamas, or point my dirty feet in the direction of Buddha, as it is considered disrespectful to do this. However, this is not a buddhist belief, but an Asian custom which now appears to be a buddhist one. Monastics are not allowed to wear adornments (jewellery), and they are not supposed to use perfumes either. Again, this is so monks and nuns do not view each other as sexual beings, as they are generally celibate. Apart from monastic rules, and not showing priests ur dirty feet, and trying to be respectful in attire, there are no rules.
Cultures, en masse, do not promote dignity. Nor does religion. Dignity is a societal construct, and what works for me in my society might not work in yours. Neither of us are especially wrong, we are just different. It bothers me that dignity becomes a form of social control. In China, many years ago, it was considered dignified to have small feet. This practise resulted in the crippling of many millions of women, and eventually the practise was outlawed. In England, it was considered dignified to have a small waist, and women would starve themselves to fit into tightly laced corsets and have ribs removed. Neither of these practises is particularly dignified, and both of these practises were designed to create "perfect" women, to objectify women, to make being female all about ur tiny lotus feet, or ur small waist, or ur large breasts, or ur long multi-tonal hair... women are constantly bombarded with this idea that they need to do something to themselves to be better women, to be more acceptable, to be more attractive, yet at the same time, they are told that women who like sex, and women who fart, and are a bit fat, and who have short hair and big feet, are not good enough... the scolds bridle was a device invented to keep still the tongues of women who moaned at their menfolk, and was a metal contraption which had a bar which went into the mouth to hold the tongue down... today, the scolds bridle is dignity, and modesty...
down with oppression! fart in elevators! swear like a fishwife! expose ur wanton flesh with pride! watch them weak silly men swoon while u expose ur well toned calves in mini skirts, tempt them with ur rounded shoulders and sweet smelling bodies... dignity is a con! say no to the myth of the virginial whore!
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...Scousers.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Sorry everyone I was determined not to post today (people must be bored with me by now) but I just can't let this one slide.
Francis, thankyou, your post is a perfect example of assumption and misconception leading your thought process. Please read what I actually said rather than what you assumed I was going to say:
"Also what men (husbands/fathers/brothers etc) want has nothing to do with it, I dress this way for Allah (G-d) and Him alone. Yes if my husband disapproves of something I want to wear and can explain to me why it is not deemed as an Islamic mode of dress I will not wear it but only because it would displease Allah not because my husband doesnt like it."
If I made a boo-boo and bought a dress that was, let us say, see through with the sun behind, and my husband pointed this out then I would not wear it because it is not appropriate dress for a Muslim woman, as told to us by Allah and the Prophet Mohammad - not as told to me by my husband (just pointed out by him).
If I told a woman the back of her skirt was tucked in her knickers would you think I am telling her how to dress or I am trying to stop her looking like a pillock and embarrassing herself?
You must have an very open mind. Before my conversion, I used to be an area manager for a large international company. It was a male dominated industry, I was the only female of 36 area managers and I had a 160 (all male) staff. Every management conference I had to deal with sexual inuendo, man trying it on, etc., and when I complained to my director I was told "well what do you expect, we are men so it's bound to happen. You work in a male industry so unfortunately you will have to learn to live with it".
Of course then I used to wear short skirts and had a cleavage I was rather proud of, I liked to look pretty. Now that I wear hijab - guess what - no men ever bother me.
Sorry didn't you tell me in your post from the previous thread that Muslim women have to be good in bed and pretend to be virgins in the town square? Didn't I reply that Muslims are embarrassingly open about sex within marriage? Muslims thoroughly enjoy sex, we just keep it between spouces - rather than running around the town square handing it out to everyone we fancy.
If you look at the thread in comparative studies entitled 'is Christianity a negative religion' my post No 138, you will clearly see my views on the similarities of teachings between the 3 major religions.
Forgive me if I am wrong but it seems you are not even trying to understand what I am saying and as some Muslims twist the words of the Quran to suit themselves, you appear to be doing the same thing with my words.
Where did I say it pleases Allah to be subservient to men? The Quran says no such thing, the Ahadith say no such thing. Allah tells us that if we dress modestly men will recognise us as Muslim and not give us unwanted attention. This is to protect women not make them subservient to men. Hence why Allah told Muslim men to dress modetly so they don't encourage attention from women. So are men now subservient to women?
Exactly, because I would not ever dress in a provocative way in front of the cousin there is no trouble between us. So you see, it works.
Your first comment is talking about physical adultery for which there must be 4 reliable male witnesses to be proven. Yes there are punishments set down for this behaviour, if proven in accordance with shari'a law.
You answer your own question in the second comment. How could 4 reliable male witnesses attest to what someone has thought? They can't but of course we accept that nothing in our hearts and minds can be hidden from Allah. It is to Allah that we will answer for any such sin, not mankind.
You are not a Muslim, so for you there is nothing wrong with looking at people on a beach. Why do you think non Muslims are required to follow the Quran? They are not, it is the Word of God sent to guide the Muslim people to the right path. It is my right to believe that as it is your right to go to the beach and look at bums.
The "some guy" you are referring to is the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) the seal of the Prophets guided directly by Allah. I shall assume that you do not understand the Ahadith and are therefore not trying to insult the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and just rile me.
The Ahadith are the written down sayings and traditions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). They were written by the Companions (pbut) and witnesses of the Prophet. They go through a rigorous series of tests to show their authenticity (see Brother Abdullah's thread on authenticating ahadith and the requirements to be a scholar). What you have done I think is read the name of the witness and assumed he said these words to Asmaa.
Feel free to answer any of my posts, I am here to discuss, learn and insh'allah dispel one or two misconceptions.
And feel like a complete idiot on Judgement Day
Sorry couldn't resist.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Respectfully,
So does it state in the Quran that women are unfit to be a witness? Or is this another Hadith?
This guy was a politician. He had his own agenda. How can we trust what he 'published' as even being the words of Mohamad let alone Allah?
All the subsequent Hadiths are the works of self apponted spiritual leaders. A part of an elite controlling class. You cannot ascribe anything in the Hadiths to either Mohamad or Allah.
This is all historical fact. This is why I have little time for Islam. This is why I see in the Quran nothing but an overtly obvious 'tool' of control by a religeous elite.
I appologise if this offends you but its what I see. If its any consolation I feel the Christian Bible is similarly manipulative.
regards
TE
So does it state in the Quran that women are unfit to be a witness? Or is this another Hadith?
As I understand it very soon after the Prophet Muhamad died the next leader ordered the collection together of all transcripts of Muhamads words. He then edited what became the Quran. He ordered the destruction of all the texts that did not conform to what he declared the official version. This was an exhaustive proccess, in which his troops sought out all that might have any writings and forceably removed and burned them.
This guy was a politician. He had his own agenda. How can we trust what he 'published' as even being the words of Mohamad let alone Allah?
All the subsequent Hadiths are the works of self apponted spiritual leaders. A part of an elite controlling class. You cannot ascribe anything in the Hadiths to either Mohamad or Allah.
This is all historical fact. This is why I have little time for Islam. This is why I see in the Quran nothing but an overtly obvious 'tool' of control by a religeous elite.
I appologise if this offends you but its what I see. If its any consolation I feel the Christian Bible is similarly manipulative.
regards
TE
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
As salaam aleykum TE
Unfortunately this is another issue that has been shall we say 'interpreted' by males. The Quran states:
[24.4] And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,
24:13 "Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they provide not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah".
As you can see nothing there about the witnesses being male. These verses are to protect women from false accusation.
The male witnesses comes from Ahadith:
The punishment of stoning cannot be enforced without the confession of the person, or four male eyewitnesses who each saw, simultaneously, the private organ of the man inside the vulva of the woman. All of these must be met under the scrutiny of judicial authority. Sahih Bukhari 8:82:815, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:826
We are all aware that life was different then, in all countries and cultures, men ruled the world. So naturally they interpreted witnesses as being male.
A lesser known fact is that in some Islamic areas (such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, and Pakistan) you can have eight male non-Muslim witnesses, or 16 female non-Muslim witnesses, would also suffice for the conviction of a male Muslim. So female testimony is accepted but at half strength (considering how we women gossip that may not be a bad thing , men are less emotional so tend to state facts rather than give emotion responses).
Obviously I can't comment on this until you tell me where you get these 'facts' from. The man you refer to is Abu Bakr.
I am in no way offended and would love to discuss this subject with you but I need to know where you are getting your facts from before I can respond (you may also be quite surprised by my response).
I will always let you know if you offend me because I feel sure it would not be deliberate and we can all offend without being aware that we are doing it, especially with subjects so dear to our hearts.
Salaam
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
TE
Given your last comment you may be interested in an email I got today:
Channel 4 have a programme out later in the year called "Who Wrote the Quran." The most critical and reflective work is being done at Glasgow University.
RSB
This is from Robert Beckford, so should be a good documentary. Obviously a follow up to Who wrote the Bible. I can't wait to see it.
Salaam
Given your last comment you may be interested in an email I got today:
Channel 4 have a programme out later in the year called "Who Wrote the Quran." The most critical and reflective work is being done at Glasgow University.
RSB
This is from Robert Beckford, so should be a good documentary. Obviously a follow up to Who wrote the Bible. I can't wait to see it.
Salaam
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
We are seriously hijacking this thread.
Yes Abu Bakr who on Muhammads death and his succession to power immediately launched what I believe is called the War of Apostacy. Apparently there were many in the area at the time who were claimimg 'divine dialogue' with the Almighty. Muhammad had through force and diplomacy, (and, from a cynics viewpoint such as mine, through claim of 'divine sanction'), united the tribes of the area. He was first and foremost a warlord. His death basicly ended that. Leading to this War of Apostacy.
The words of Muhammad had not at that time been collected together as a single volume, being that he only said things oraly, being unable to write. In order to secure his (Abu Bakr) position and have complete control over the legacy of Mohammad he ordered as a part of his war that any and all written refferences to what Muhammad said be collected and given to him. What did not fit with his ideas did not make it in. So who knows what Muhammad really said?
In my view Islam has it's foundations built on political scheming, it was the tool of warlords excersising whatever and all methods they could to seize power in that region at that time. That it ever became such a huge organised religion is a testament to the folly of mans irrationality.
I have discussed this same subject at length previously here at CR but cant recal which thread and have not yet been able to track it down. I did a bit of research on that one and cited my sources there. When I find it I will let you know.
Regards
TE
Yes Abu Bakr who on Muhammads death and his succession to power immediately launched what I believe is called the War of Apostacy. Apparently there were many in the area at the time who were claimimg 'divine dialogue' with the Almighty. Muhammad had through force and diplomacy, (and, from a cynics viewpoint such as mine, through claim of 'divine sanction'), united the tribes of the area. He was first and foremost a warlord. His death basicly ended that. Leading to this War of Apostacy.
The words of Muhammad had not at that time been collected together as a single volume, being that he only said things oraly, being unable to write. In order to secure his (Abu Bakr) position and have complete control over the legacy of Mohammad he ordered as a part of his war that any and all written refferences to what Muhammad said be collected and given to him. What did not fit with his ideas did not make it in. So who knows what Muhammad really said?
In my view Islam has it's foundations built on political scheming, it was the tool of warlords excersising whatever and all methods they could to seize power in that region at that time. That it ever became such a huge organised religion is a testament to the folly of mans irrationality.
I have discussed this same subject at length previously here at CR but cant recal which thread and have not yet been able to track it down. I did a bit of research on that one and cited my sources there. When I find it I will let you know.
Regards
TE