Never the "Twain" Shall Meet

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earl

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This is my mercifully short lament/polemic on the "fundamental" divide between "liberal" Christians & the other guys. I leave the longer polemics to Andrew.:D By the way Andrew & Nick, I've learned through your info that my views are much like Theosophy's minus most of your cosmological certainties.:) I've never indulged myself in a polemic yet, so due for 1. Anyway, it finally hit home to me through recent dialogue here somewhat sadly that there really isn't "a" Christianity. That there is an apparently irrevocable schism so wide between "liberals" & more literalistic/legalistic/ fundamental brands of Christianity, that it's really like 2 entirely different religions, and the latter preaches a Christ, a Jesus, a God that are strangers to me, (1 of the reasons I don't belong to a church here as I never hear about the guys I know in these churches). Both camps speak of unlimited love, compassion, etc. but both camps don't agree on the definition of "unlimited." (What is it about monotheism anyway? Seems that soon as someone posits one God/The God, everybody fragments into such camps. But I digress-this one's for the Christians.)

Stats say about 1/3 of the world is Christian. One "camp" claims to love the other 2/3 ( "judge not" & "love thy neighbor" & that sort of thing) while sadly proclaiming they know the "mind of God"(as well as what "God" even is and how God operates) & know those 2/3 are going to perish. Small God club it seems. Of course other stats say about 1/3 of the US describe themselves as Evangelicals. So, if you want to talk about "real" Christians, then I guess the other camp would privately or publicly say that God's only going to let them "in" making the actual club even smaller.

I've engaged in this rant because until I spent some time in these dialogues I never really realized how irrevocable that divide is, which I find rather sad. Guess there's really a reason for 2 Christian boards. But I will end with Mark Twain. I assume it was just this sort of thing which prompted his quote: "Go the heaven for the climate and hell for the company." God bless us all, earl
 
Hi Earl...

If it's any comfort to you, my opinion is that the schism has been there since the very beginning. Jesus was not an individual that came here to create a united concept of reality for the people. Instead he sowed fire upon the earth through his ambiguous visions and stories. And he left it up to the political and governing forces to bring some form of unity to it all...and the rest is history.
Peace... love to you and yours.

flow....:cool:
 
I see the divide but don't see it impenetrable. It seems to me this version, my version of liberal Christian believes in Christ and love, and believes others can make it to heaven..without that belief.

This one third welcomes the other two thirds. As I am striving to see Christ in them all. Now this make it to heaven stuff, it still isn't a free ride (even for those who swear allegiance) you gotta act like it...not just acting, strive for it. So if you are on the path of loving your fellow man, and trying to take care of this planet earth...your on the path...in my book.

Now it used to be when I came to this side of the divide I couldn't take the other part of my one third. I was embarassed by them, incensed with their holier than thou attitude. But I soon discovered that was my issue not theirs. And in time I can sit in those pews, listen to those sermons, and hear Christ and love in them to....it is just different.

You see in my world, the Christ doesn't save you...you gotta save yourself. But you do so by understanding and emulating the Christ nature, and just like he, you don't actually have to know him to do it. Now the other part of my one third believes that only Christ can save them and they are unworthy...(well some of them feel this way)...but they are worthy and charged to insure that everyone else knows about Christ the glory and get saved, reborn, resurrected made anew in Christ....and that is out of love...and intense love that says they want everyone else to have what they have...but their are some parameters to that, you gotta learn the dance and do it right...

But it is all ok...that is there path...right now...and this is my path...right now...and wherever we go...odds are we'll be crossing each others paths again...
 
Earl,

Theosophy says that there are different kinds of people, so we need different kinds of religions (although I feel many Christians would disagree). It is that simple.

Regarding cosmological certainties, it is quite OK to resonate with Theosophical morals and outlooks, without, for example, spending every minute splitting hairs over the differences between God and the Absolute. In fact, Theosophy discourages over-intellectualizing. There is a little slice of Theosophy for everyone.

For example, Theosophy teaches of the need for social work as a requirement to get into Nirvana. (Sorry, no simple proclaiming of faith will get us into Nirvana — a proven track-record will be required.)

(No such proven track-record is required to get into Theosophical Heaven, by the way.)

“He who does not practice altruism; he who is not prepared to share his last morsel with a [person] weaker or poorer than himself; he who neglects to help his brother man, of whatever race, nation, or creed, whenever and wherever he meets suffering, and who turns a deaf ear to the cry of human misery; he who hears an innocent person slandered, whether a brother theosophist or not, and does not undertake his defense as he would undertake his own — is no theosophist.” H.P.Blavatsy, Lucifer, November, 1887

Theosophy article: "Let Every Man Prove His Own Work" by Blavatsky

There is no high-fallutin' philosophy here. A person who would enter Nirvana must learn to be so busy helping others that they completely forget about themselves — which is exactly what they will be doing in Nirvana for millions of years.

Some Theosophists say social work is more important than intellectual hair-splitting. Perhaps they are right.

I would like to share one Theosophical teaching. Theosophy teaches that we have to apply to enter Nirvana. At that time, we will not be asked what religion or God we attended to while on Earth. We will be asked, however, to show a track-record of service.
 
I like Twain too but typical of my typos I typed it wrong. It of course should read "Go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company." Probably should have followed that up with a Groucho Marx quote: "Any club that would have me as a member I wouldn't join.:D " Actually what really prompted my rant was following my recent posts re to near death experience and the anecdotal research that suggested that the vast majority of NDE'ers experienced a feeling of universal love and acceptance-same % among aboth Christians & atheists. Rather than that "good news" being a basis for rejoicing among the "faithful," it appeared to upset some; almost as if it disappointed them greatly to think that there was no "in-" and "out-groups" with the outies perishing/suffering a worse fate than themselves. While it's only a loose association in my mind, I do think there is a general association where one is on a continuum between fundamentalistic/legalistic views and whatever you want to call the other end and where one is at on the continuum of true openness of heart and being. That is, one cannot truly have an open heart or mind while simultaneously judging others. Sure some will claim it's not them judging but God, but of course they're putting their own words into God's mouth. For those who have truly open hearts/minds, I'm guessing their theological views have moved appreciably along this continuum so that the views match the current state of their "heart" & vice versa. Guess this post is less "ranty." have a good one, earl
 
Hi earl :)

FWIW, I think that our earnest attempts at reconciliation with our fellow human beings are of great value in the "eyes" of GOD. Not only is this Biblcal, but it is common spiritual and moral sense inherent in many teachings. To me, that means sincerely holding out hope for each other, no matter how we may differ in our limited understanding. And if there is one thing I do know, it is that no one knows it all! I do seek what commonalities may be found, not just between the various schools of Christian thought and belief, but among all people of all faiths. Some may always resist this way, and at times, it may even be me. When it is, I either make the mistake and learn from it, or I have to "shake the dust off" and move on, not in a misguided attempt to pronounce condemnation, but just to remind myself that I have done all I can do in The Way I know, and perhaps there is someone else or another time when The Spirit will move those who are against me or those I may represent. I don't know much, but I know with all my being that the "narrow" gate is narrow because we may only pass through it one at a time, and it is the same and different for each one. That said, I believe it is open to all. I believe all of us would be better off if we didn't focus so much on being "right". Being right in our own eyes is not, in my opinion, the same thing as true "righteousness".

Well, don't know if this helped any, but I wanted to write it. I live in hope, and whatever comes next after this present reality, however the "afterlife" plays out, it is this hope in the Wisdom of GOD's Love that brings me what peace I can find and share, and I will hold to it even when it is hard to see.

InPeace,
InLove
 
earl said:
I like Twain too but typical of my typos I typed it wrong. It of course should read "Go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company." Probably should have followed that up with a Groucho Marx quote: "Any club that would have me as a member I wouldn't join.:D " Actually what really prompted my rant was following my recent posts re to near death experience and the anecdotal research that suggested that the vast majority of NDE'ers experienced a feeling of universal love and acceptance-same % among aboth Christians & atheists. Rather than that "good news" being a basis for rejoicing among the "faithful," it appeared to upset some; almost as if it disappointed them greatly to think that there was no "in-" and "out-groups" with the outies perishing/suffering a worse fate than themselves. While it's only a loose association in my mind, I do think there is a general association where one is on a continuum between fundamentalistic/legalistic views and whatever you want to call the other end and where one is at on the continuum of true openness of heart and being. That is, one cannot truly have an open heart or mind while simultaneously judging others. Sure some will claim it's not them judging but God, but of course they're putting their own words into God's mouth. For those who have truly open hearts/minds, I'm guessing their theological views have moved appreciably along this continuum so that the views match the current state of their "heart" & vice versa. Guess this post is less "ranty." have a good one, earl
Click to expand...

Yes it seems to me that many, though far from all, 'religious', I wont confine it to Christians, people are less righteous than self-righteous. (I worship the God of superflous punctuation :eek:)
 
Like wil I am unable to see any differences between people as being ultimately irrevocable. My own NT is a little rusty, having spent a long time away in the Pure Land ( :) ), but I recently saw the following quote on another forum......

Ephes. 1:9-10...............Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

To my mind, such an exchatalogical hope is one of the greatest expressions of the Christian Faith. Buddhism, though to my mind fundamentally "universalist", is relatively free of any such specific vision, although my own Pure Land way speaks of to grasp and never abandon, a "dynamic term having several connotations:the active, unremitting pursuit of all beings, especially those who turn away from Amida; the grasping of beings without discrimination; and the inevitable act of taking each being completely into the heart of great compassion." (So watch out, you havn't got much choice in the matter.....:D)

It seems important to me to hold such a hope in some sort of ultimate reconciliation. At the very least it places before me the task now to seek reconciliation, rather than ever to dismiss another human being as being beyond the pale..........which can often seem the line of least resistance! Freud, in his later years, came to the following chilling conclusion about human beings: "It is always possible to bind together a considerable number of people in love, so long as there are other people left over to receive the manifestation of their aggressiveness" It surely would be chilling if that was the final word.

What to make of our differences? It does seem to me that when we associate our own "salvation" with a particular "belief" then obviously those who have another "belief" - yet also consider themselves "saved" - pose a threat to us in some form. Whatever, I do think people can be better than their beliefs...........forums like this to a certain extent create an artificial environment. I remember a fundamentalist guy who worked in the same office as myself. A very likeable guy until the subject of religion came up, at which time some sort of veil seemed to drop down over his eyes which seemed to compromise what seemed an instinctive love of people. It seemed to me that he was being "saved" in spite of his beliefs rather than because of them. Such is grace I suppose. I remember him dishing out one of his constant warnings of God's wrath to a fellow (non-believing) worker, and the other guy said to him......"listen John, when you come marching into heaven your'll see me playing in the band!" John responded with a deep wistful sigh and a "no, Bill, I don't think so". But the question becomes..........would he have been pleased to see Bill there?

Anyway, I appear to be rambling.

Inside the Great Mystery that is,
we don't really own anything.
What is this competition we feel then,
before we go, one at a time, through the same gate? (Rumi)
 
I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I've always struggled with my inclination to "judge the judgers.";) But I do find it interesting that though, one can find similar schisms between fundamental and non-fundamental factions in all Abrahamic religions, only in Christianity do you seem to find the potential for folks to believe that judgment and condemnation can be so total down to the very "soul" of an individual, (it is this approach to Christianity that does of course give it its reputation as seeming to be "negative"-as in the discussion of "Is Christianity a Negative Religion?" in the comparative forum). That I find sad, though perhaps my sadness is as much for myself in that when it comes to Christianty as it is typically preached and/or practiced, I find myself a stranger in a strange land. Then again I'm not much of a club joiner anyway.:) Perhaps I can be heartened that for the most part there is a continuum in Christianity and it therefore isn't one-sided, (i.e., there really is a "good news" end of the continuum in it). In the end of course, whether we're church-inclined or not each of us walks our own path. Just sometimes I could use a little company on the journey, which is why I post here & have of course found some similarly inclined folk which I appreciate. We now return you from this rant to your regular TV viewing. earl
 
Tariki said:
Like wil I am unable to see any differences between people as being ultimately irrevocable. My own NT is a little rusty, having spent a long time away in the Pure Land ( :) ), but I recently saw the following quote on another forum......

Ephes. 1:9-10...............Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

To my mind, such an exchatalogical hope is one of the greatest expressions of the Christian Faith. Buddhism, though to my mind fundamentally "universalist", is relatively free of any such specific vision, although my own Pure Land way speaks of to grasp and never abandon, a "dynamic term having several connotations:the active, unremitting pursuit of all beings, especially those who turn away from Amida; the grasping of beings without discrimination; and the inevitable act of taking each being completely into the heart of great compassion." (So watch out, you havn't got much choice in the matter.....:D)

It seems important to me to hold such a hope in some sort of ultimate reconciliation. At the very least it places before me the task now to seek reconciliation, rather than ever to dismiss another human being as being beyond the pale..........which can often seem the line of least resistance! Freud, in his later years, came to the following chilling conclusion about human beings: "It is always possible to bind together a considerable number of people in love, so long as there are other people left over to receive the manifestation of their aggressiveness" It surely would be chilling if that was the final word.

What to make of our differences? It does seem to me that when we associate our own "salvation" with a particular "belief" then obviously those who have another "belief" - yet also consider themselves "saved" - pose a threat to us in some form. Whatever, I do think people can be better than their beliefs...........forums like this to a certain extent create an artificial environment. I remember a fundamentalist guy who worked in the same office as myself. A very likeable guy until the subject of religion came up, at which time some sort of veil seemed to drop down over his eyes which seemed to compromise what seemed an instinctive love of people. It seemed to me that he was being "saved" in spite of his beliefs rather than because of them. Such is grace I suppose. I remember him dishing out one of his constant warnings of God's wrath to a fellow (non-believing) worker, and the other guy said to him......"listen John, when you come marching into heaven your'll see me playing in the band!" John responded with a deep wistful sigh and a "no, Bill, I don't think so". But the question becomes..........would he have been pleased to see Bill there?

Anyway, I appear to be rambling.

Inside the Great Mystery that is,
we don't really own anything.
What is this competition we feel then,
before we go, one at a time, through the same gate? (Rumi)
Click to expand...
Just Noticed you posted after I did, Derek. I appreciate your contributions. As you know my approach to Christianity more closely resemble Pure Land thought. Ultimately how well we embrace each other as human beings has little to do with our belief systems and it is not the humans holding the belief systems I wrestle with but the very belief systems as I see how some actually seem to promote albeit inadvertently fear, division, hatred, etc. But than the optimist in me sees how the more we truly meet others human to human and the more our hearts open, the more beliefs really do not even enter into the interaction, dissolving away into the background to alow what really matters to come to the fore. take care, earl
 
earl said:
That there is an apparently irrevocable schism so wide between "liberals" & more literalistic/legalistic/ fundamental brands of Christianity, that it's really like 2 entirely different religions, and the latter preaches a Christ, a Jesus, a God that are strangers to me, (1 of the reasons I don't belong to a church here as I never hear about the guys I know in these churches). Both camps speak of unlimited love, compassion, etc. but both camps don't agree on the definition of "unlimited." (What is it about monotheism anyway? Seems that soon as someone posits one God/The God, everybody fragments into such camps. But I digress-this one's for the Christians.)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the thread Earl.

I'm saddened to think that this is true. I'd rather see "fundamentalist" Christians be a shinning example of G-d's unconditional love, but looking around, I too often see the opposite.

I'll take your words as a reminder and challenge for myself to be a conduit of His truly unconditional love.

All the good thoughts,
Mark
 
Prober said:
I'll take your words as a reminder and challenge for myself to be a conduit of His truly unconditional love.
Click to expand...
Amen,

I think this is clearly the answer to most everything...

Whatever we encounter..."How is G-d asking me to grow right now?"

Whatever is said..."OOOh that was harsh, I must insure others don't perceive me the way I just perceived that."

"This cashier is being an ass...oops...how can I brighten her day?"
 
earl said:
Just some sharing from the other end of the spectrum:D earl

The Slavation Conspiracy: How Hell Became Eternal
Click to expand...

Hi earl,

Thank you for the link...that was a great read. :)

Don't be so disheartened earl. I can certainly understand the 'rant,' I've felt that way myself on more than one occasion. Yeah, it hurts to know that others feel I deserve to burn in hell for eternity. You could call that a little obtacles when it comes to staying in a caring, respectful relationship, as we are called to do. Apparently some people find threats of punishment as a helpful incentive to faith (and who am I to argue with their experience?). I do not find fear helpful, and like it said in the article, love is the more powerful motivator:

Dr. Ken R. Vincent said:
At this point, it should be noted that many in the early Church who were Universalist cautioned others to be careful whom they told about Universalism, as it might cause some of the weaker ones to sin. This has always been a criticism of Universalism by those who think that people will sin with abandon if there is no threat of eternal punishment. In fact, modern psychology has affirmed that love is a much more powerful motivator than fear, and knowing that God loves each and every person on the planet as much as God loves you does not promote delinquency. Conversely, it is Christian exclusivity that leads to the marginalization of other human beings and the thinking that war and cruelty to the “other” are justified since they're going to Hell anyway! This kind of twisted thinking led to the persecution of the pagans, the witch hunts, the Inquisition, and the Holocaust.
Click to expand...

Look at it this way, love begets more love, and fear gives us a chance to transform anxiety into courage (The Courage to Be, Paul Tillich).

It's all good. :)
 
From Karl Barth, one of the great Protestant theologians of the twentieth century.....

Peculiar Christendom, whose most pressing problem seems to consist in this, that God's grace in this direction should be too free, that hell, instead of being amply populated, might one day be found to be empty.

:)
 
Tariki said:
From Karl Barth, one of the great Protestant theologians of the twentieth century.....

Peculiar Christendom, whose most pressing problem seems to consist in this, that God's grace in this direction should be too free, that hell, instead of being amply populated, might one day be found to be empty.

:)
Click to expand...

Yes, Barth too, and he a predestination theologian.

Barth said:
In so far as predestination contains a "No," it is not a "No" spoken against humanity. In so far as it involves exclusion and rejection, it is not the exclusion and rejection of humanity. In so far as it is directed to perdition and death, it si not directed to the perdition and death of humanity.
Click to expand...

McGrath said:
Barth thus eliminates any notion of a "predestination to dondemnation" on the part of humanity. The only one who is predestined to condemnation is Jesus Christ who "from all eternity willed to suffer for us."

The consequences of this approach are clear. Despite all appearances to the contrary, humanity cannot be condemned. In the end, grace will triumph, even over unbelief"
Click to expand...
 
Earl...thanks for the link. The degradation of the universalist approach to Christianity that came with its origins seems to have been slowly strangled over time. I stand corrected. Again, thanks !

flow....:)
 
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