Beginnings...

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Prober

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Okay, I've got to ask...

I've read some posts about not taking Genesis literally.

What are your thoughts on the beginning of life and what's the story of the spikey 600-foot Adam?
 
Science can tell us more about the nature of the natural world than anything else, although I wouldn't hold my breath thinking modern cosmologies will hold forever either, but better to use that as a basis than clinging to the old mythical paradigms of how the world works.

Judaism supports this with an evolving understanding of the universe, first beginning with something mythical to understand the world, the creation of the world in bereshit, then when that no longer fit the way we understood reality, taking it as allegorical.

Dauer
 
dauer said:
Science can tell us more about the nature of the natural world than anything else, although I wouldn't hold my breath thinking modern cosmologies will hold forever either, but better to use that as a basis than clinging to the old mythical paradigms of how the world works.

Judaism supports this with an evolving understanding of the universe, first beginning with something mythical to understand the world, the creation of the world in bereshit, then when that no longer fit the way we understood reality, taking it as allegorical.

Dauer
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I guess I'm still holding on to a literal torah concept. It's a pretty tough position from which to return.

What about the 600-foot spikey Adam thing?
 
Modern science teaches us that endings and beginnings are one in the same thing and mingle together in chaotic events and within their time periods. The "initial conditions" of any natural system that continues on in time is extremely sensitive to the components of its beginnings and its environments. When the components of the "initial conditions" begin to break down, the onset of phase changes and chaotic episodes become more prevalent.

flow....:cool:
 
Sorry, to interupt... How do you prounounce that word?
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It rhymes somewhat with "hooray! Sleet." or "er... Hey Pete." or "sure tastes sweet." in one of the ways to transliterate hebrew, a long "e" sound becomes "i." Personally I'm not fond of transliteration at all and would much rather have the Hebrew.

What about the 600-foot spikey Adam thing?
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Is that a midrash? Midrash isn't necessarily taken literally. Drash is the level of interpretation that is more exegetical, allegorical. The only folks who treat midrash as something meant to always be literal are some ultra-orthodox, and that's simply their reaction to the modern era and to the ideas of the enlightenment. They make more and more things concrete, both in right-belief and right-action, meaning in regard to action that what were before customs become extensions of the halachic system, necessary for affiliation with those communities. All forms of Judaism existing today are essentially one response or another in confronting the enlightenment and the modern era, and how to on one extreme react and completely shut oneself from the world and on the other extreme assimilate and lose Jewish identity. Most folks fall somewhere in the middle.

Dauer
 
flowperson said:
The "initial conditions" of any natural system that continues on in time is extremely sensitive to the components of its beginnings and its environments. When the components of the "initial conditions" begin to break down, the onset of phase changes and chaotic episodes become more prevalent.

flow....:cool:
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then, at some point, natural selection takes over...and people become liberals or conservatives.:D
 
dauer said:
Is that a midrash?
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Yeah, something BB said...thought it might be a good story...
All forms of Judaism existing today are essentially one response or another in confronting the enlightenment and the modern era, and how to on one extreme react and completely shut oneself from the world and on the other extreme assimilate and lose Jewish identity. Most folks fall somewhere in the middle.

Dauer
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This sounds like what Flow was saying.

If you've shut yourself off from the world your whole life, how do you come back and not lose yourself?

How do you remember where you came from and not turn into a dinosaur as time passes?
 
Prober,

yeah, exactly. It's like you fossilize. When that happens, something integral, some quality about you has changed. But then you stop changing. You stay the same way you are indefinitely, and are probably much more appropriate to a museum than the living, changing world. But on the other end also, if you completely embrace everything change, letting go of everything that make you who you are, you lose your identity in a bland universal soup.

Dauer
 
On a recent family guy, God created the world by farting. I think he may have lit it on fire, but not sure.

Dauer
 
dauer said:
On a recent family guy, God created the world by farting. I think he may have lit it on fire, but not sure.

Dauer
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I just saw that one! His "bud" handed him the lighter and the "big bang" occured.:D

Not drash?:D
 
Okay. Something that's been bugging me...

If the world was not created in six days, how is Shabbos meaningful?

I realize that this is tied to my view of Shabbos as a memorial of G-d's creation. Perhaps it's not thought of that way any more.

Perhaps a better question is "What is the purpose and meaning of Shabbos?".
Maybe that's too big a question.

Shabbos is about time, right?

These are not "trip you up" questions...Just trying to find the truth.

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks,
Mark
 
Prober,

just because the myth is not taken literally does not mean the 7 days of creation are no longer tied to the days of the week. The names of the days of the week in hebrew are all numbered and then Shabbat is called by name. Even when it's not taken literally, the rhythm still remains the same. I had a profesor who would say that musically, it's like the other days are the regular notes and Shabbos is like a rest note. Shabbat is also linked in the Torah to the exodus from mitzrayim, and both ideas are important.

Perhaps a better question is "What is the purpose and meaning of Shabbos?".
Maybe that's too big a question.
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Yes, that is a really really big question to give a good, thorough answer. I will only state here that important to shabbos are the dual concepts conveyed by the words vayinafash which is what God did on the 7th day of creation. It can mean that God ceased from creative acts, and it can also mean that God ensouled the world, nefesh being one of the hebrew words for soul. There is in fact one interpretation that the 7th day was a day of creation of sorts, and God was creating rest. But if you really want to learn more about shabbat I would suggest first:

MyJewishLearning.com - Daily Life: Shabbat

If you'd prefer a good cover of everything instead of just wandering through the essays, there is guided learning in the column on the left. Jewfaq is good too, but less thorough in covering everything and only from one particular perspective instead of many.

Shabbos is about time, right?
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It can be understood that way, as almost a time outside of time. Heschel liked to call it an island of time and would talk about it as a time to be instead of to do. I think there may be an essay from him or about him on that site. He also wrote a book called The Sabbath that's a classic, and a really beautiful heartfelt work. He loved to get really poetic. Shabbos starts and ends not at a fixed hour, but is instead determined by the position of the sun and stars in the sky which really helps to make it feel like something separate and distinct from regular time. It doesn't follow the same rules as the rest of the week. Shabbat is also called a taste of olam haba which is the world-to-come, can either mean the time after the messiah comes or the afterlife. But there are just so many themes and idea connected to it. It's such a central thing in Judaism. It's not an accident that myjewishlearning puts it under daily life and practice instead of holidays. Sometimes it's compared to a bride or a queen, related to the Shechinah, the divine feminine that is the indwelling presence of God. But that site I gave really should be pretty good for an overview of a lot of the different concepts, from the different denominational perspectives. I'm not sure actually if it covers the melachot well, the types of work traditionally not allowed on shabbat, but there are sites you can find if you do a search.

Dauer
 
dauer said:
Prober,

just because the myth is not taken literally does not mean the 7 days of creation are no longer tied to the days of the week. The names of the days of the week in hebrew are all numbered and then Shabbat is called by name. Even when it's not taken literally, the rhythm still remains the same. I had a profesor who would say that musically, it's like the other days are the regular notes and Shabbos is like a rest note. Shabbat is also linked in the Torah to the exodus from mitzrayim, and both ideas are important.
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Okay. I get that. Shabbos is a kind of reflection in human terms of a divine thing, not the divine thing itself? Not the "aniversary of G-d's resting" per se, but a pointing back or a remembering of it?
Yes, that is a really really big question to give a good, thorough answer. But if you really want to learn more about shabbat I would suggest first:

MyJewishLearning.com - Daily Life: Shabbat
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Thanks. I'm going to have to read that in order to understand more.

It can be understood that way, as almost a time outside of time. Heschel liked to call it an island of time and would talk about it as a time to be instead of to do. I think there may be an essay from him or about him on that site. He also wrote a book called The Sabbath that's a classic, and a really beautiful heartfelt work. He loved to get really poetic. Shabbos starts and ends not at a fixed hour, but is instead determined by the position of the sun and stars in the sky which really helps to make it feel like something separate and distinct from regular time. It doesn't follow the same rules as the rest of the week.
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I have a good sense of this. The Heshel book sounds really interesting. I'll have to look for it.
Shabbat is also called a taste of olam haba which is the world-to-come, can either mean the time after the messiah comes or the afterlife. But there are just so many themes and idea connected to it. It's such a central thing in Judaism. It's not an accident that myjewishlearning puts it under daily life and practice instead of holidays. Sometimes it's compared to a bride or a queen, related to the Shechinah, the divine feminine that is the indwelling presence of God. But that site I gave really should be pretty good for an overview of a lot of the different concepts, from the different denominational perspectives. I'm not sure actually if it covers the melachot well, the types of work traditionally not allowed on shabbat, but there are sites you can find if you do a search.

Dauer
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Many thanks for the big fork with which to eat the elephant (which would be unclean, wouldn't it.:D)!

Best regards,
Mark
 
Okay. I get that. Shabbos is a kind of reflection in human terms of a divine thing, not the divine thing itself? Not the "aniversary of G-d's resting" per se, but a pointing back or a remembering of it?
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There are three categories for mitzvot. A chok is something we don't necessarily understand the meaning. A mishpat is more related to doing what is right and just. An edah is more related to remembering something that happened. And they can overlap. According to some passages in the gemara all of the mitzvot essentially amount to chukim.

Whether a Jewish observance is taken as literally going through what happened or as just a rememberance really has to do with where an individual falls on the scale of mysticism vs. rationalism. There can be a real attempt on the mystical end to experience the holidays and observances as really happening, to partake of the myth. When you exit mitzrayim, you should really experience yourself leaving. When it's shavuot which will be coming at the end of the omer, you should really experience yourself at sinai for the revelation. I was actually thinking last night, that during the Torah service when we say "v'zot ha-Torah..." that this is the Torah given by Moshe to Israel, the word of God transmitted through Moshe, from a mystical perspective it's really a lot like communion in Christianity. We are saying this Torah, this one before us. From a more rational perspective of course, it's saying it contains the same thing, not that we should see it as literally the same.

I was just reading over the rest of your post -- yes, I'm one of those people who responds to each piece and then finishes reading :O -- and another teaching came to mind. That even more than the Jewish people have kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept the Jewish people. If you have more specific questions about Shabbat I can gladly answer. It's just kinda difficult to give a full overview without pointing you somewhere else. I looked up a site for the melachot. The one I had wanted to give you is a dead link now:

Torah Tots 39 Melachot

That it's a kids' site isn't such a bad thing. My favorite book on the melachot is an illustrated childrens' book that even has a picture of the mishkan, tracing each of the avot melachah to different activities of its construction, sourcing everything, etc.

Dauer
 
dauer said:
According to some passages in the gemara all of the mitzvot essentially amount to chukim.
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I have that feeling...
Whether a Jewish observance is taken as literally going through what happened or as just a rememberance really has to do with where an individual falls on the scale of mysticism vs. rationalism. There can be a real attempt on the mystical end to experience the holidays and observances as really happening, to partake of the myth. When you exit mitzrayim, you should really experience yourself leaving. When it's shavuot which will be coming at the end of the omer, you should really experience yourself at sinai for the revelation.
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Cool! Okay, so everybody can enjoy Shabbos together, each at his own level. I'm seeing it.
I was actually thinking last night, that during the Torah service when we say "v'zot ha-Torah..." that this is the Torah given by Moshe to Israel, the word of God transmitted through Moshe, from a mystical perspective it's really a lot like communion in Christianity. We are saying this Torah, this one before us. From a more rational perspective of course, it's saying it contains the same thing, not that we should see it as literally the same.
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Yeah, not the book, the connection...
That even more than the Jewish people have kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept the Jewish people.
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It's a comforting thought...
If you have more specific questions about Shabbat I can gladly answer. It's just kinda difficult to give a full overview without pointing you somewhere else. I looked up a site for the melachot. The one I had wanted to give you is a dead link now:

Torah Tots 39 Melachot

That it's a kids' site isn't such a bad thing. My favorite book on the melachot is an illustrated childrens' book that even has a picture of the mishkan, tracing each of the avot melachah to different activities of its construction, sourcing everything, etc.

Dauer
Click to expand...

Thanks. Much reading to do...

I finally bought the JPS Tanakh I was wanting...


Mark
 
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