Theosophical Hierarchy

[Nick the Pilot]

Theosophical Hierarchy

Here is an explanation of the steps in the Theosophical Hierarchy.

First comes the Absolute.

Then comes the Father-Mother-Son Logos.

Now for the rest.

~~~

Explanations of the Terms in this Chart

-- Central Sun of our Universe --

The Central Sun of our Universe is mentioned in The Secret Doctrine.
“The soul animating this purely spiritual universe is the central sun, the highest deity itself.” (SD vol I p. 340)

“It was the highest Deity itself which, according to Plato, built the Universe in the geometrical form of the Dodecahedron; and its ‘first begotten’ was born of Chaos and Primordial Light (the Central Sun). This ‘First-Born,’ however, was only the aggregate of the Host of the ‘Builders,’ the first constructive Forces, who are called in ancient Cosmogonies the Ancients (born of the Deep, or Chaos) and the ‘First Point.’ He is the Tetragrammaton, so-called, at the head of the Seven lower Sephiroth.” (SD vol I p. 344)

“... the Universe evolving from the central Sun, the POINT, the ever-concealed germ.” (SD vol I p. 379)

“... it is the sun, and all the suns that are from [Ether], which emanate at the Manvantaric dawn from the Central Sun.” (SD vol I p. 527)

“Outside the boundaries of the solar system, it is other Suns, and especially the mysterious ‘central Sun’ (the ‘Abode of the invisible deity’ as some reverend gentlemen have called it) that determines the motion of bodies and their direction.” (SD vol I p. 673)

[In the Stanzas of Dzyan,] “ ‘His breath gave life to the seven,’ refers as much to the sun, who gives life to the Planets, as to the ‘High One,’ the Spiritual Sun, who gives life to the whole Kosmos.” (SD vol II p. 23)

“The reader has to bear in mind that the Stanzas given treat only of the Cosmogony of our own planetary System and what is visible around it, after a Solar Pralaya. The secret teachings with regard to the Evolution of the Universal Kosmos cannot be given, since they could not be understood by the highest minds in this age, and there seem to be very few Initiates, even among the greatest, who are allowed to speculate upon this subject. Moreover the Teachers say openly that not even the highest Dhyani-Chohans have ever penetrated the mysteries beyond those boundaries that separate the milliards of Solar systems from the ‘Central Sun,’ as it is called.” (SD vol I p. 13)

-- Guardian-Spirit of the Milky Way --

Madame Blavatsky was reticent to mention anything about our Milky Way's Guardian Spirit, or our Galaxy-level Logos. She felt that The Secret Doctrine should only refer to the creation of our Chain, Round, and Planet (Earth). Here is one of the few references she made to the Milky Way's Logos.

“Science ... cannot deny the presence in Sidereal Space of a central body in the milky way, a point unseen and mysterious, the ever-hidden center of attraction of our Sun and system....” (SD vol II p. 240)

-- Our Sun --

The star which is our Sun is our Solar Logos.

“The Sun is the giver of life to the whole planetary system....” (SD vol I p. 386)

“... for [our Sun] is only the reflection and material shadow of the Central Sun of truth, which illuminates the intellectual (invisible) world of Spirit and which itself is but a gleam borrowed from the ABSOLUTE.” (quoted in SD vol I p. 255)

“It is the sun who preserves and nourishes all creatures; and even as the Ideal World which environs the sensible world fills this last with the plenitude and universal variety of forms, so also the Sun, enfolding all in his light, accomplishes everywhere the birth and development of creatures.” (quoted in SD vol I p. 294)

“...the true Occultist believes in "Lords of Light;" that he believes in a Sun, which, far from being simply "a lamp of day" moving in accordance with physical law, and far from being merely one of those Suns, which according to Richter -- ". . . . are Sun-flowers of a higher light" -- is, like milliards of other Suns, the dwelling or the vehicle of a god, and a host of gods.” (SD vol I p. 479)

“...the Sun [is] the great Life-Giver of the physical world, as the hidden Concealed Spiritual Sun is the Light- and Life-Giver of the Spiritual and Psychic Realms.” (SD vol I p. 481)

“The Sun is the heart of the Solar World (System) and its brain is hidden behind the (visible) Sun. From thence, sensation is radiated into every nerve-centre of the great body, and the waves of the life-essence flow into each artery and vein. . . . The planets are its limbs and pulses....” (quoted in SD vol I p. 541)

“... the Sun is ... a world, a glowing sphere, the real Sun being hidden behind, ... the visible Sun only a window cut into the real Solar palace and presence, which reflects, however, faithfully the interior work.” (SD vol I p. 541)

“In ancient Symbolism it was always the SUN (though the Spiritual, not the visible, Sun was meant), that was supposed to send forth the chief Saviours and Avatars. Hence the connecting link between the Buddhas, the Avatars, and so many other incarnations of the highest....” (quoted in SD vol I p. 638)

-- Our Manvantara --

Our present Manvantara will last 4.3 billion years

-- Our Round --

The Guardian-Spirit of a Round is called a Manu.

“...at the beginning of every Round ... there are root-Manus ... the first Manu produced six other Manus (seven primary Manus in all), and these produced in their turn each seven other Manus.... Just as each planetary Round commences with the appearance of a 'Root Manu' (Dhyan Chohan) and closes with a 'Seed-Manu,' so a Root and a Seed Manu appear respectively at the beginning and the termination of the human period on any particular planet....

“1st Round
1st ... Manu on Planet A — Swayambhuva.

2nd Round
2nd ... M. on Planet A — Uttama

3rd Round
3rd ... M. ” A — Raivata

4th Round
4th ... M. ” A — Vaivasvata (our progenitor)

5th Round
5th ... M. ” A — Daksha Savarna

6th Round
6th ... M. ” A — Dharma Savarna

7th Round
7th ... M. ” A — Rouchya” (SD vol II p. 308)

“...the Dhyanis watch successively over one of the Rounds and the great Root-races of our planetary chain. They are, moreover, said to send their Bodhisatvas, the human correspondents of the Dhyani-Buddhas (of whom vide infra) during every Round and Race. Out of the Seven Truths and Revelations, or rather revealed secrets, four only have been handed to us, as we are still in the Fourth Round, and the world also has only had four Buddhas, so far.” (SD vol I p. 42)

More information was omitted.

“Among the eleven Stanzas omitted there is one which gives a full description of the formation of the planetary chains one after another, after the first Cosmic and Atomic differentiation had commenced....” (SD vol I p. 152)

-- Earth --

The Earth is guided by a Guardian-Spirit.

“...the Spirit-Guardian of our globe, which is the fourth in the chain, is subordinate to the chief Spirit (or God) of the Seven Planetary Genii or Spirits.” (SD vol II p. 22)

-- Our Races --

“These genealogies embrace a period of three and a half Rounds; they speak of pre-human periods, and explain the descent into generation of every Manu — the first manifested sparks of the ONE Unity -- and show, furthermore, each of these human sparks dividing into, and multiplying by, first, the Pitars, the human ancestors, then by human Races.” (SD vol II p. 322)

-- Our National Groups --

The Hierarchy extends down to the level of nations and peoples. Here is one example, Jehovah as the Guardian-Spirit of the Jewish people. (In Theosophy, Jehovah is not seen as Almighty God, but as a minor diety.)
“Each people and nation ... has its direct Watcher, Guardian and Father in Heaven — a Planetary Spirit. We are willing to leave [the Jewish] national God, Jehovah, to the descendants of Israel ... for, indeed, the monads of the people chosen by him are his own, and the Bible has never made a secret of it. Only the text of the English (Protestant) Bible is, in disagreement, as usual, with those of the Septuagint and the Vulgate. Thus, while in the former one reads (in Deuter. xxxii., 8 and 9) ‘When the MOST HIGH (not Jehovah) divided to the nations their inheritance . . . he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel,’ in the Septuagint the text reads ‘according to the number of the Angels’ (Planet-Angels), which is more concordant with truth and fact. Moreover, all the texts agree that ‘the Lord’s (Jehovah) portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance’ (Deut. xxxii. 9); and this settles the question. The ‘Lord’ Jehovah took for his portion Israel — what have other nations to do with that particular national Deity? Let then, the ‘angel Gabriel’ watch over Iran and ‘Mikael-Jehovah’ over the Hebrews.” (SD vol I p. 576)

Other examples can be thought of that fit this Theosophical concept, for example, St. Patrick the Patron Saint of Ireland.

One discrepancy may be observed in the chart above. In that chart, the Jewish People may be misconstrued as being part of the Fourth Race. They are not, they are part of the Fifth Race.

 

[Francis king]

looks good on paper, though...

 

[Thomas]

Re: Christian (Pre-Reformation) Hierarchy

HIERARCHY IN PRINCIPLE

God


(2-way dialogue)


Man

-------

HIERARCHY IN PRACTICE

God

Sacrament

Liturgy

Church

Man​

Thomas

 

[bananabrain]

gosh, you guys really have it all figured out, dontcha?

First comes the Absolute. Then comes the Father-Mother-Son Logos.

this is interesting, because it appears to reflect a trinitarian viewpoint. now while you claim to understand how the Divine Y-Name represents the interaction of male and female, this structure seems truncated. a cursory study of the Tetragrammaton reveals that while the higher 'father' and 'mother' (below the "point of the yod") make a 'couple', so does the 'son' (not to be confused with the "logos" in jewish mysticism, or jesus, incidentally) with the 'daughter/wife', which appears to be missing from this schema - this 'face' being our equivalent of the "logos". so actually, here we have an absolute mismatch between the jewish and theosophical structures in terms of the higher spiritual structure of the cosmos as understood within the almost universally accepted mystical framework of the ariza"l, r. isaac luria.

it is also instructive to note how you demote what you see as the "jewish deity" to a mere tribal entity. needless to say, this is not how we see it. although the midrashic literature refers to the "sar" of a particular nation, which would be the equivalent of your "guardian-spirit", to suggest that this is what we consider to be G!D is 100% inaccurate. one might also suggest that this is precisely the mistake pharaoh made when refusing moses permission to let the hebrews go - "i do not know this G!D", thinking, you see, that he had more powerful spiritual backup.

one could equate the "primordial light" (your "central sun") with our concept of "EIN SOF AUR", or "AUR Ha-SeKheL", the "light of enlightenment", as it were, which is the light referred to in the Creative saying "let there be light" ("VaYeHI AUR").

He is the Tetragrammaton, so-called, at the head of the Seven lower Sephiroth.

yeah, this is nonsense. the seven lower sefirot are actually represented only by the "vav" and second "heh" of the Tetragrammaton. this statement makes no sense in kabbalistic terms whatsoever.

the rest of it is just more structural blether - it has the look of a constructed, human, logical process, whereas the Created Universe is far beyond this. it is a profoundly mechanistic, platonic conception with a rigid hierarchy, not the dynamic, fluid, interactive relationships described in the kabbalah. but then, that's hardly a surprise.

(In Theosophy, Jehovah is not seen as Almighty God, but as a minor diety.)

of course, because goodness knows, nobody could possibly have any clue about the higher worlds other than you guys and there's nothing special or unusual about the sole surviving diaspora culture of the ancient world, is there?

tell me, why do you feel this need to cut us down to size? could it be something to do with the fact that you need everyone to fit into your rigid little set of hierarchies? do you need us to be the jews you want us to be? no wonder HPB was such a fertile source of inspiration for the great anti-semites of the C20th.

the monads of the people chosen by him are his own, and the Bible has never made a secret of it. Only the text of the English (Protestant) Bible is, in disagreement, as usual, with those of the Septuagint and the Vulgate. Thus, while in the former one reads (in Deuter. xxxii., 8 and 9) ‘When the MOST HIGH (not Jehovah) divided to the nations their inheritance . . . he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel,’ in the Septuagint the text reads ‘according to the number of the Angels’ (Planet-Angels), which is more concordant with truth and fact. Moreover, all the texts agree that ‘the Lord’s (Jehovah) portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance’ (Deut. xxxii. 9); and this settles the question. The ‘Lord’ Jehovah took for his portion Israel — what have other nations to do with that particular national Deity?

unfortunately, it doesn't make any difference what the english bible says, or whether it agrees with the septuagint or the vulgate, or the outer mongolian for that matter - it matters what the *hebrew* says. and the hebrew says "benei yisra'el" - so if the septuagint says that, it's wrong, period. unless you are suggesting that the septuagint is more correct than the hebrew, in which case i would suggest you a seriously unhinged case of wishful thinking.

moreover, the hebrew may not use the Tetragrammaton in this verse, but that makes perfect sense, for the Tetragrammaton is the private Name which was first revealed to us - it is a Name that only we may use and, even then, only one of us at a time and, even then, only once a year. even its correct pronunciation is not known outside a small group - think about it, yaar: does everyone call you by your first name, or is that reserved for people with whom you have a particular relationship?

it may also be inconvenient for your little racial-stereotyping party that the "seventy nations" of the world (a nominal number) have been agreed by our tradition to have been so mixed since the time of the destruction of the Temples, that we can no longer say who belongs to which nation (or "race", if you must) so all of this is academic nowadays anyway. certainly G!D does not play favourites any more as far as we can tell, despite the continued evidence that the survival of the jews is part of the Divine Plan - certainly by all rules of history we should long ago have ceased to exist.

i don't give a monkey's what your crackpot theories say about us being part of some "fifth race". this is the sort of silliness that was widespread in the late C19th and it is rather pathetic to see it being treated as credible in this day and age, however satisfying it may appear, as francis puts it, on paper.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[taijasi]

bananabrain,

'tis a shame, that it takes someone like me ... of all the people here at CR, to remind you that you're posting on an ALT forum, where an open discussion of Theosophical ideas should be welcome (see my 2nd post from today on Pentateuch Wisdom) ...

... but it's even more embarrassing to have to say, Have a little RESPECT for your co-posters, for the ideas that they hold Sacred, and for a discussion about Highest Deity - and immediate Agencies thereof.

No, it's not too far to go out of your way, to demonstrate the respect you wish to receive ... even if you find that others don't see things eye to eye with you. Nick embodies this beautifully. In so doing, he is practicing `The Golden Rule,' although it is also known by other names. Again, please see my earlier post.

You don't have to get angry and upset just because someone has a different understanding of things. Again, why should it be me that has to remind you ... when I've found that I'm often the one getting reminded?

I'm not sure who mods this board, but I would openly invite that person to take a look at what's going on here. Friendly discussion is one thing ... and a snide remark here & there is just that, nothing more. bananabrain, are you familiar with the term, `invective'?

Once again, a little Respect, please. No one has invaded Judaism, and I hardly see how discussing the Theosophical presentation of Spiritual Hierarchy(ies) warrants such a patently offensive response from you.

To say that Theosophists understand Jehovah as the tribal deity of the Jews (related to Saturn in this regard, certainly a `Perfect Logos' by HPB's terminology) ... is a legitimate viewpoint, and can be supported perfectly well.

I believe an apology is in order, for saying such things as:

of course, because goodness knows, nobody could possibly have any clue about the higher worlds other than you guys and there's nothing special or unusual about the sole surviving diaspora culture of the ancient world, is there? [pure sarcasm]

tell me, why do you feel this need to cut us down to size? could it be something to do with the fact that you need everyone to fit into your rigid little set of hierarchies? do you need us to be the jews you want us to be? no wonder HPB was such a fertile source of inspiration for the great anti-semites of the C20th. [Now you're making false accusations, you are being offensive, and you are tossing around things like "anti-semitism" ... and directly accusing HPB of fueling the fires of race-hatred, which we know is nonsense - a woman living in the 19th Century can hardly be held responsible for the misinterpretations of her teachings, and their intentional misuse and misrepresentation at the hands of the Nazis, in the following centiry]

in which case i would suggest you a seriously unhinged case of wishful thinking [I suggest again, bananabrain, you have forgotten what Respect means]

it may also be inconvenient for your little racial-stereotyping party [an apology, please ... ]

i don't give a monkey's what your crackpot theories say about us being part of some "fifth race". this is the sort of silliness that was widespread in the late C19th and it is rather pathetic to see it being treated as credible in this day and age, however satisfying it may appear, as francis puts it, on paper. [And again, one snide comment is enough ... you don't give a monkey's, do you? Then WHY are you at CR? WHY post here, since YOU DON'T CARE what anyone else THINKS, YOU and YOU ALONE know EXACTLY what ALL JEWS believe and NO ONE from ANY OTHER CIRCLE - or let's just say, the Theosophist "camp" - holds any opinion WORTH SNOT! You make this CLEAR, but you fail to say ANYTHING about why you are here, then ... except to beat a drum, I suppose.]

So I think an open apology for the mess you're trying to create here, would be in order. I've done it before, when it's been pointed out that I've essentially invaded the Christianity forum and stirred up trouble. I'm asking for nothing less here, and a willingness to either discuss things on polite, friendly, RESPECTFUL & Respectable terms ... or else remove your foot from the door.

Seems a reasonable enough request, prior to contacting a mod. N'est pas?

many thanks,

and Namaskar,

~andrew

 

[taijasi]

one could equate the "primordial light" (your "central sun") with our concept of "EIN SOF AUR", or "AUR Ha-SeKheL", the "light of enlightenment", as it were, which is the light referred to in the Creative saying "let there be light" ("VaYeHI AUR").

This is more or less my understanding ... several terms are used interchangeably.

moreover, the hebrew may not use the Tetragrammaton in this verse, but that makes perfect sense, for the Tetragrammaton is the private Name which was first revealed to us - it is a Name that only we may use and, even then, only one of us at a time and, even then, only once a year. even its correct pronunciation is not known outside a small group -

This is precisely what we find in Theosophical teachings. Compare, from An Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary (compiled from HPB's writings):

"Alone, out of all [the Hebrew] nation the high priests had it in their possession, and respectively passed it to their successors," before their death. "Once a year only, on the day of atonement, the high priest was allowed to pronounce it in a whisper" (Isis Unveiled 2:398-9).
​

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

Ain Soph is equal to the Absolute. The Central Sun is several steps down the Hierarchy.

There are several references to the Tetragrammaton in Theosophical literature. Here are a few.

“The ‘Four Holy Ones’ are the four Angels of Regents who rule over the Cosmic Forces. They are given the names North, East, West, and South, each force having a distinct occult property.” (SD vol I p. 122).

[Tetraktys, Tetrad, The sacred Four] “... is Unity, or the ‘One’ under four different aspects; then it is the fundamental number Four, the Tetrad containing the Decad, or Ten, the number of perfection; finally it signifies the primeval Triad (or Triangle) merged in the divine Monad.... The One is the impersonal principle ‘God’; the Two, matter; the Three, combining Monad and Duad and partaking of the nature of both, is the phenomenal world; the Tetrad, or form of perfection, expresses the emptiness of all; and the Decad, or sum of all, involves the entire Kosmos.” (H.P.Blavatsky, Theosophical Glossary, p. 326)

“Tetragrammaton. The four-lettered name of God, its Greek title: the four letters are in Hebrew ‘yod, hé vau, hé’,or in English capitals, IHVH. The true ancient pronunciation is now unknown; the sincere Hebrew considered this name too sacred for speech, and in reading the sacred writings he substituted the title ‘Adonai’, meaning Lord. In the Kabbalah, I is associated with Chokmah, H with Binah, V with Tiphereth, and H final with Malkuth. Christians in general call IHVH Jehovah, and many modern Biblical scholars write it Yahveh. In the Secret Doctrine, the name Jehovah is assigned to Sephira Binah alone....” (H.P.Blavatsky, Theosophical Glossary, p. 325)

“These four are the major modes in which what is ‘inner’ and unmanifest can be projected as ‘outer’ and manifest.... They are the modes of the four-faced Brahmâ, the Creator.” (Man, the Measure of All Things, by Prem & Ashish p. 120)

“They are the Tetraktys of Pythagoreans, the four-faced Brahma of the Hindus, the four-square Heavenly Jerusalem of the Christians, and the four-lettered Tetragrammaton of the Kabbala.” (Man, the Measure of All Things, by Prem & Ashish p. 144)

You said,

"I'm not sure who mods this board, but I would openly invite that person to take a look at what's going on here."

--> I have discussed the situation with Brian the Admin. He has made it clear that attacking both a person and their belief system are allowed on this Forum. It is just one of those limitations we must learn to live under.

 

[taijasi]

"I'm not sure who mods this board, but I would openly invite that person to take a look at what's going on here."

--> I have discussed the situation with Brian the Admin. He has made it clear that attacking both a person and their belief system are allowed on this Forum. It is just one of those limitations we must learn to live under.

lol ... yes, I'm quite familiar with the double-standard!

In that case, we can show the Christians how it's done ... and our Jewish Brothers, and anyone else, for that matter!

A Theosophist (or esotericist) is called to high standards, even when those around him prove to be hypocrites, or know no better than the status quo.

And when all the squabbling is over, perhaps everyone will wear a smile ... not just those who started out with one!

bananabrain knows good & well that I have never stated that "I," or "we" (Theosophists, esotericists, etc.) are somehow "in possession of" the Theos Sophia - or Wisdom of God/Divine Wisdom/etc. ... since that is something than can never be owned or paraded about in front of others, as if to demonstrate some kind of superiority.

If there is confusion, let the honest man seek for clarity and understanding. Hurling accusations says a whole lot more about the accuser sometimes than it does the accused. And the strangest part of it all ... is that I didn't realize Theosophy was "on trial" - whether by Jews, or by Catholics!

It seems, sometimes, that there is judgment all around, and that one man can only define his faith by cutting down that of another. When someone comes along and says, ahhh, but are not all paths like the branches of One Tree ... and the Mighty Trunk the thing we call `Truth,' or even "God" ... no sooner does someone suggest this that these same exclusivists, whatever may be their professed faith, then turn around, and accuse us of claiming ownership of said Great Tree!!!

Nowhere does Theosophy teach that exoteric religion(s) have no place or purpose, or that they should be abandoned in favor of esotericism ... that would be a complete misunderstanding of the facts! Nor is it said that there is only one "flavor" or type of esotericsm (!!!) ... since in fact, every great Tradition (Judaism included, of course) has its esoteric component.

All that is being asserted, which does not sit well with the hypocrites, is that in fact, the Golden Rule - as the Noble Eightfold Path, the Mosaic Code, the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, and others - are core doctrines ... emanating, or rather, being Purposefully and Intentionally given out according to a governing & Spiritual Body via THE Divine Order ...

... and that Theosophy (and related Disciplines) make as their aim the studying, and the embodying, of those dictates so provided, regardless of the various exoteric religious traditions (or none) that may appeal to a given disciple, or aspirant.

Let those who assail the Esoteric Teaching, and slander its Ambassadors, and can see no farther than the bridge of their own noses ... take a lesson.

Here, even at CR in "A.D." 2007, we see the great double-standard of religions ... in all its worldly glory ... flying proudly -

- yet another, and a different standard is also displayed.

If, in some cases, as may seem "out of character" for me, I choose NOT to respond to certain posts, even direct accusations, slanderings and patently offensive posts ... remember, that Silence does always mean complicity.

NAMASKAR

... andrew

 

[taijasi]

Nick,

Just FYI, in the tradition of Alice Bailey, coming in the 20th Century (she wrote from 1919 to 1949) and after HPB, I have a very elementary - yet a slightly different understanding of the various supra-Solar Hierarchies.

I really wouldn't know where to begin, but I'm gonna look for a link to a site online called `Makara' ... and see if I can show some conversations that go into this.

I know that not every Theosophist is a student of Alice Bailey, but it might be worth stating, for record, that in a great many cases, students of AAB are usually also students of HPB, or else have in interest in Theosophy as the Foundation of modern esotericism. Thus, even studying Agni Yoga, Lucille Cedercrans, Geoffrey Hodson, Dane Rudyar and others who might not have been strict Theosophists (or lifelong members of the TSA or related associations), a definte Respect and kindred Spirit is unquestionably preserved.

Getting back to Hierarchies, the teachings via Alice Bailey indicate the following as the "Twelve Creative Hierarchies" ... this being excerpted from an online source referencing AAB's charts:

The Creative Hierarchies​

It might here be appropriate if I interpolated a chart or a tabulation which maybe found suggestive of some of these interlocking energies which play through, traverse, return, stimulate and energize every part of our solar system. They only evoke conscious response where the vehicle of expression and of response is adequate to the impact, and this statement is true of the solar Logos, the planetary Logoi, and of all forms in all the kingdoms upon our planet. [33] Unconscious reaction will of course exist, but it will be on a general or mass scale, and much of it pours through to us from these distant constellations, via the fifth Creative Hierarchy. This Hierarchy, being on the verge of liberation, is to be found on the intellectual level of consciousness and can, therefore, be used as a focal point and a transmitter of the higher energies to our solar system and to the planet. If you make a careful study of the chart of the twelve Creative Hierarchies, page 34, you will note that this Hierarchy is influencing, and is influenced by, the seventh Ray of Magical Order and of Ceremonial Organization. The basic function of this ray is to relate spirit and matter and produce the manifested form. The sign of the zodiac with which it is closely connected is that of Cancer, the Crab, which is a mass sign and one of the "gates" into manifested life.​

The following information anent the Hierarchies may prove useful. It has been gathered from various sources.​

I might here remind you that the seven planes of our solar system are the seven subplanes of the cosmic physical plane. The four Creative Hierarchies which have achieved liberation are now to be found focused upon the cosmic astral plane; hence their potency even when out of manifestation. The fifth Creative Hierarchy exists on the highest etheric level and will join the other four Hierarchies when the sixth Creative Hierarchy has measured up to cosmic opportunity and is itself nearing liberation. The following is a tabulation showing some of the astrological relationships in connection with

1. The constellation of the Great Bear.
2. The Pleiades or the Seven Sisters.
3. Sirius.
4. The seven solar systems.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]Hierarchies 1 to 4 inclusive (12 to 9 inclusive) have reached liberation.[/FONT] ​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]The 5th Creative Hierarchy is on the verge of liberation. It is active on the intellectual plane[/FONT]​

The Seven Creative Hierarchies in active planetary expression

{Okay, the chart part didn't come out, you'll hafta hit the site to see it}

Note: Much in this chart may seem obscure and even erroneous. For instance:
​

Sagittarius coming between Capricorn and Aquarius. This is a temporary emphasis and will change in another world cycle.​

The inactivity of the five Hierarchies who are out of incarnation, having achieved liberation, is only on the lower planes.​

I recommend the page where I found the above ... it looks like the work of a capable student ... Our Solar System

Some of this info is superfluous, though, and my astronomical knowledge is too amateur to know anything about the planets or some of the systems mentioned ... but the esoteric cosmology as taught via HPB and AAB has interested me for years. I'll try to follow the discussion, and contribute, as well as possible.

Concerning Makara ... an article on `The 12 Creative Hierarchies' by the esoteric astrologer Stephen Pugh can be found here. The main site is here ...

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

One point of difference that we may have, Nick, is with regard to what I'd call yet more "gaps" between our evolving Solar Logos ... and that Being Whose body of manifestation is the Milky Way Galaxy - with a central point (or heart) being the Supermassive Black Hole, Saggitarius A, as science has recently discovered.

Some students have poured over the Tibetan's writings, and have surmised that our Solar System is supposedly one of a system of seven constellations ... and the notion that we are a "lone system" - and not truly a "constellation" - is even accounted for in various ways.

Further work, by Stephen Pugh and others, shows these Seven to be the Centers - or points of focus - in a Great Being, the One About Whom Naught May Be Said (OAWNMBS) ... according to AAB's teachings. Obviously, further speculation is essentially useless.

And yet it does seem clear enough that our solar system is revolving as a whole around the constellation Pleiades ... more specifically, the star Alcyone (!) ...

... while the Pleidies Itself forms one of the Seven Systems above mentioned, Draco another, Ursa Major another, Sirius (A & B) another ... and of course, more can be found by checking out Pugh's site, Esoteric Astrologer, also mentioned above.

At any rate, there would presumably be an enormous gap in terms of scale of being between such a Logos as a "Solar Logos" and a "Galactic Logos" ... although, yes, this is all just scratchings on paper, or photons on a screen.

cheers,

~andrew

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

You said,

"A Theosophist (or esotericist) is called to high standards, even when those around him prove to be hypocrites, or know no better than the status quo."

--> Theosophy teaches that there are seven Heavens. A devoutly religious but intolerant person can only get to the sixth Heaven — they cannot make it to the seventh Heaven. Theosophists, on the other hand, because they practice tolerance, acceptance, and brotherhood, have a much better chance to get to the seventh Heaven.

"I'm quite familiar with the double-standard!"

--> I do not think it is a double-standard. Apparantly, everyone is allowed to attack everyone here. But we Theosophists are not allowed to do so, by Theosophy itself.

"And when all the squabbling is over, perhaps everyone will wear a smile ... not just those who started out with one! "

--> As I said elsewhere, I fully expect to shake hands with BB when he finally gets to Heaven (but each negative comment he makes delays his entrance into Heaven, because each negative comment earns him an equivalent time in Purgatory. That is fair, and I love the idea of karma because it is 100% fair.

"Hurling accusations says a whole lot more about the accuser sometimes than it does the accused."

--> People who hurl bad thoughts at another person have no idea the bad karma they are making. As hideous as it is, we can only sit and wait for the inevitable. Even we cannot undo another person's bad karma -- it is strictly forbidden.

"And the strangest part of it all ... is that I didn't realize Theosophy was "on trial" - whether by Jews, or by Catholics!

--> Theosophy will continue to be on trial for thousands of years. We tell them exactly what they do not want to hear. It is our job, it is not pretty, but it is something that must be done.

"...one man can only define his faith by cutting down that of another."

--> His Judgement Day will be particularly ugly -- and inescapable. Karma never forgets.

"Nowhere does Theosophy teach that exoteric religion(s) have no place or purpose, or that they should be abandoned in favor of esotericism...."

--> Theosophy's job is to re-introduce the esoteric ideas that have been intentionally removed from exoteric religions. And, believe it or not, we are slowly succeeding.

"...the Golden Rule..."

--> The Golden Rule is the very essence of karma. Not only should we do unto others, we will be held acountable for every smidgin of failure to do so, no matter how small. The Golden Rule contains ancient teachings that the average person knows nothing about.

"Here, even at CR in "A.D." 2007, we see the great double-standard of religions ... in all its worldly glory ... flying proudly...."

--> They will have some 'splaining to do on Judgement day, whereas persecuted people will fly through with flying colors (on this particular point). I again reminded how detailed and specific Judgement day will be. I truly believe members of the Abrahamic faiths will find Judgement Day to be something they never expected.

"If, in some cases, as may seem "out of character" for me, I choose NOT to respond to certain posts, even direct accusations, slanderings and patently offensive posts ... remember, that Silence does always mean complicity."

--> Oh, there are a lot of posts I do not respond to. To respond to slander with silence earns a person a particularly shiny piece of karma.

Karma never forgets. Everything will be accounted for. All we can do is warn everyone what is coming.

 

[taijasi]

Thanks, Nick ... sometimes I feel the best reminder of why I joined the TSA to begin with - really could only come from a Theosophist!

I didn't have much to add, but I would like to say ... that much of what you're reminding me of, is also what appealed to me so much when I first read accounts of these things, often via the writings of C.W. Leadbeater, and Annie Besant.

Beautifully detailed explanations have been provided of the hereafter, since then corroborated by literally thousands of eyewitnesses, from more angles and perspectives than one could count! Theosophists are by no means the only ones sharing information with us regarding the Great Beyond!

I know, you knew that ... yet I come back again and again to Leadbeater's `The Astral Plane,' which is so scientific a study of what we can and will encounter. And then I combine this with - good grief, just dozens upon dozens of other testimonies, both from trained observers and disciples, as well as from firsthand experiencers who have told things from a very natural & down-to-earth point of view (save where tradition or theological speculation has gotten the better of them).

CR is a great place for learning patience, and for practicing it. Frankly, I would have to say (or admit) that perhaps 85% (?) of the "religious discussions" that I get into, even on topics of considerable interest, aren't nearly as important for me (or for my own karmic situation) in terms of what I say, but rather, how I say it! But then, you knew that.

I don't mind being called smug for that. Knowing what I know, I know how little I know ... and that's how I can be "so sure," about what I know.

ah well - thanks again,

Peace,

andrew

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

You said,

"I know that not every Theosophist is a student of Alice Bailey...."

--> Remember that Theosophy is only one part of the Ancient Teachings. There are whole other parts of the Teachings that Theosophy never even touched on.

"...Creative Hierarchy..."

--> I have never seen such a phrase in Theosophy, but such a thing may well exist. As a matter of fact, I was just doing some research today on the higher levels (super-solar) of the Hierarchy. Blavatsky ignored much of the information at that level, and concentrated on teaching only about Earth and humanity. (It is said that, if Blavatsky had taught everything she had access to, it would have filled libraries.) There are tons of information on the Hierarchy that have not yet been released.

"...the teachings via Alice Bailey indicate the following as the "Twelve Creative Hierarchies..."

--> I was just reading today about the connection of the 12 zodiac signs to the Theosophical Hierarchy.

"I'll try to follow the discussion, and contribute, as well as possible."

--> Let us know what you come up with.

"...and the notion that we are a "lone system"

--> You are saying we are, or we are not?

"And yet it does seem clear enough that our solar system is revolving as a whole around the constellation Pleiades ... more specifically, the star Alcyone...."

--> Just today I was reading about the small group of solar systems our solar system belongs to.

"...there would presumably be an enormous gap in terms of scale of being between such a Logos as a "Solar Logos" and a "Galactic Logos" ... "

--> Indeed there is. There are definitely intermediate steps, although Blavatsky left most of this out of her story.

"I come back again and again to Leadbeater's `The Astral Plane,'...."

--> By the way, have you read the Theosophical description of Nirvana, which is quite different than the Theosophical Heaven?

 

[bgruagach]

***MODERATOR WARNING***

Despite what has been stated in this thread and possibly in some others it is not acceptable to attack individuals. Please reread the site's Code of Conduct and tone down the discussion or else this thread will be closed and offenders might find themselves suspended or worse.

If you feel that someone has stepped over the line in a post please use the "Report Post" button to flag it for the moderators. The "Report Post" button looks like a small triangular road sign, usually at the bottom edge of each post. Moderator warnings are usually conducted privately so please do not assume that an offender has not been warned just because no public warning was issued.

The Alternative section here at Comparative-Religion.com is for the discussion of religions and topics which generally fall outside the mainstream. This catch-all covers a very diverse group of religions and philosophies -- please respect that no one religious group "owns" the Alternative section. We've done a pretty good job up until now of respecting the diverse nature of this subforum while still disagreeing -- let's not ruin that now.

Ben Gruagach
moderator for Alternative at Comparative-Religion.com

 

[bananabrain]

you're posting on an ALT forum, where an open discussion of Theosophical ideas should be welcome

well, an 'open discussion', as you call it, should include the possibility of my pointing out when you say something about judaism that is inaccurate or untrue. that is all i have sought to do. it is not "disrespectful" for me to point out things that are *simply incorrect*. it is *fair comment* for me to suggest, on the basis of analysis of her direct quotes posted by you, that HPB does not understand judaism. it is furthermore *fair comment* for me to point out that you have offered *no*, repeat *no* evidence whatsoever to back up these extravagant claims of theosophical cosmic wisdom other than the writings of theosophists. i have attempted to wade through these swamps of glutinous prose but have looked in vain for any evidence of original insight, as opposed to gobbets gleaned from hindu and buddhist tracts and the western mystery tradition of christian "cabala". in other words, i've seen nothing here that i couldn't have written myself, given enough time and an independent income. i'm not angry about it at all. i'm just pointing some stuff out.

No one has invaded Judaism, and I hardly see how discussing the Theosophical presentation of Spiritual Hierarchy(ies) warrants such a patently offensive response from you.

if you find my interjections "offensive", feel free to ignore them.
but part of what i have learnt in over a decade's work in this area of interfaith dialogue is that a mature spiritual tradition can handle itself in grown-up discussion with nothing to fear. if you don't understand how what you are saying about judaism comes across, i can tell you that it appears pompous and ignorant. and, once again, i am sorry if this offends you, but it takes two to tango. i feel perfectly within my rights as a poster (i haven't moderated you or used any mod privileges in regard to these discussions, you should note) to refute what i see as inaccuracies, unintentional or otherwise. it is not "another understanding of things" if you represent judaism as saying things that it does not, or believing things that it does not. that is misrepresentation, or slander if you prefer. it is certainly "invasive". i'm not trying to be nasty about it, but you have so far refused to acknowledge the validity of my criticisms.

To say that Theosophists understand Jehovah as the tribal deity of the Jews (related to Saturn in this regard, certainly a `Perfect Logos' by HPB's terminology) ... is a legitimate viewpoint, and can be supported perfectly well.

i don't see how it can be legitimate if it 100% contradicts what we believe about G!D. by definition we worship the One - that's what being a monotheist means. you can hardly accuse us of being unaware that the "tribal deity" interface, as it were, is an unsophisticated understanding. and how can it be assumed that this is the case when the earliest jewish texts (like genesis, for example) are precisely those from which the sophisticated understanding of the Divine are sourced? even the kabbalistic sources, such as the sha'arei orah ("gates of light") which assign the various Divine Names to the different sefirot would never consider that this would be in any sense a demotion of G!D.

Now you're making false accusations, you are being offensive, and you are tossing around things like "anti-semitism" ... and directly accusing HPB of fueling the fires of race-hatred, which we know is nonsense - a woman living in the 19th Century can hardly be held responsible for the misinterpretations of her teachings, and their intentional misuse and misrepresentation at the hands of the Nazis, in the following century]

let's be abundantly clear about this. i never, ever "toss" around accusations of anti-semitism, as i consider that a very serious matter indeed. what i am saying is that there is ample evidence that HPB (and indeed alice bailey) were sympathetic to the so-called "scientific racism" of the C19th, of which racial anti-semitism was part - and it is obvious from the diagram at the top of this page why there would be synergy between these ideas.

what i am not saying is that HPB or any other theosophist *intended* to inspire nazism, despite the fact that the thule society, the teutonic knights and the vril society were all influenced heavily by theosophical writings - (see Nazi mysticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - all the guff about "aryans"). i would say the same thing about the philosopher friedrich nietszche, in fact. it doesn't make any of these guys "nazis" per se. nor would i condemn wagner (unpleasant anti-semite though he undoubtedly was) simply because he provided *inspiration*. furthermore, i am not suggesting that either of you or any of your modern theosophical fellow-travellers are anti-semitic. all i am doing is pointing out that HPB didn't like jews, which is a) consistent with the denigration of jewish texts and theology in the copious quotes you have supplied and b) anti-semitic, which, i will repeat, does not make *YOU* anti-semitic, any more than liking wagner (which i do) makes *me* anti-semitic. that's what i mean by being careful about not making accusations. however, you cannot ignore the fact that HPB builds what are, to my mind, borderline anti-semitic structures based upon theoretical racial divisions with no substance in reality. i'm not all that surprised by this sort of tendency in a C19th russian occultist, it was practically required at the time. if it doesn't give you pause for thought and suggest to you that you might like to be a little less fulsomely uncritical of HPB, then that really is all i can say at the present time.

YOU DON'T CARE what anyone else THINKS, YOU and YOU ALONE know EXACTLY what ALL JEWS believe and NO ONE from ANY OTHER CIRCLE - or let's just say, the Theosophist "camp" - holds any opinion WORTH SNOT! You make this CLEAR, but you fail to say ANYTHING about why you are here, then ... except to beat a drum, I suppose.]

i don't mind what other people thinks, until they start thinking it about judaism and saying it - *if it's WRONG*. i am surely within my rights to point out errors about judaism, am i not? CR stands for COMPARATIVE religion, doesn't it? doesn't that mean you ought to compare stuff? i mean, there are interesting things i've found out about theosophy in these threads, albeit most of them seem to be hindu really.

In the Kabbalah, I is associated with Chokmah, H with Binah, V with Tiphereth, and H final with Malkuth.

v (or vav) is actually associated not just with tiferet, but with the six sefirot between tiferet and yesod - and also the number six.

In the Secret Doctrine, the name Jehovah is assigned to Sephira Binah alone....”

not in the kabbalah, which assigns this particular Divine Name interface to tiferet. the name assigned to binah is E-LoHIM - but i daresay theosophy is right and the kabbalah is wrong?

bananabrain knows good & well that I have never stated that "I," or "we" (Theosophists, esotericists, etc.) are somehow "in possession of" the Theos Sophia - or Wisdom of God/Divine Wisdom/etc. ...

well, forgive me for getting the distinct impression that you believed theosophy could tell us things about judaism that i didn't know, like how we're this "root race" (!) and how our deity isn't the proper G!D, but some "racial guardian spirit". you could see how i might come to that conclusion, i expect.

good grief, just dozens upon dozens of other testimonies, both from trained observers and disciples, as well as from firsthand experiencers who have told things from a very natural & down-to-earth point of view (save where tradition or theological speculation has gotten the better of them).

so, our thousands of scholars, books and so on, do they count as this sort of first-hand experiencers?

Theosophy will continue to be on trial for thousands of years. We tell them exactly what they do not want to hear. It is our job, it is not pretty, but it is something that must be done.

gosh, what a brave bunch of soldiers for the Truth you all are. i'm afraid you'll have to get in the queue with the islamists, christian evangelists, new agers, academics, baha'is, sociobiologists and everyone else that has "good news" for us. i've got news for you, chaps - judaism has already been on trial for several thousand of years and it has lasted so far. you talk about your belief system in exactly the same way that evangelists talk about "witnessing" and islamists talk about "invitation to islam", so forgive me if i don't think i'm hearing anything particularly new. i wouldn't say what francis has just said, though, as i'm not in a position to judge on anything other than what has been quoted here - that's what i'm going on.

They will have some 'splaining to do on Judgement day

fine - i will take my chances with G!D, the True Judge.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

Since the topic of Judgement Day has been raised, I thought I would share a personal story on the subject. My father passed away several years ago. Thanks to the services of a psychic friend, I was able to hear how my father's Judgement Day went.

First, a little background. My father was a devout Roman Catholic. He was a member of the Holy Name Society from day one, and we was the Head Usher at the church. He was the very picture of what Catholocism wants us to be.

Quite frankly, things did not go so well. There was one particular issue he was called on the rug for, and it did not go well. (The fact that he disputed the issue did not help things.) As a result, he has had to come back to Earth and work off a little excess bad karma.

The thing I like about the Theosophical Judgement Day is that it is all a matter of fine shades of good and bad. (It is not one monolithic good and bad Judgement Day like the Christians teach.) It was more of like a sliding scale for my father. He found his spot on the sliding scale, he will work off bad karma to the extent he earned it, and he will enjoy good karma to the extent he earned it.

Karma is exceedingly fair. I hope that even my father can see that now.

 

[taijasi]

Good story, Nick. I agree, the Theosophical presentation of Karma, the Law of Cause & Effect, of Sowing & Reaping ... leaves us with an understanding of the Universe (and even our little backwoods planet) as a fair place, where everything works out for the greatest good, of the greatest number. Yet in the big picture, everything, and everyone, is accounted for!

Biblically, this is made clear in Christ's statement that "not a sparrow falls" that the Lord does not know it. I just get sick of the old white guy, with the long flowing beard, and all this mess about worshipping the Wayshower ... and the absurdity of a god that plays favorites. Kinda makes ya wonder if people actually believe all that!!!

(And I know that many here don't ... )

This part especially, Nick:

The thing I like about the Theosophical Judgement Day is that it is all a matter of fine shades of good and bad. (It is not one monolithic good and bad Judgement Day like the Christians teach.)
​

... gets my attention.

I believe in the notion that our "Judgment Days" are really occurring on a sliding scale, all the time. Every day, in fact, we are "judged" for how well we've met up to life's challenges, and how well we've taken advantage of the opportunities that are offered. No one is sitting there with a tally-book waiting to hear how many times we've called out to Jesus, or prayed in the name of Allah, or sung Hare Krishna, etc.

Prayer, meditation, yoga (of various sorts), and all manners of spiritual discipline all have their place. As the Simon & Garfunkel song tells us:

And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson,
Jesus loves you more than you will know (Wo wo wo).
God bless you, please, Mrs. Robinson,
Heaven holds a place for those who pray (Hey hey hey, hey hey hey).
​

cheers,

~andrew

 

[Dondi]

Quite frankly, things did not go so well. There was one particular issue he was called on the rug for, and it did not go well. (The fact that he disputed the issue did not help things.) As a result, he has had to come back to Earth and work off a little excess bad karma.

Been following this thread for some time now, and now you've piqued my interest.

When you say your father had to come back to earth to wrom off his bad karma, are you suggesting that at this very moment your father, assuming that the Judgment Day and return to earth happened in a short time, is now reincarnated somewhere on earth, probaly a few years old at this very moment? And if so, would it be possible, or even wise, for you to try and find out where he is? That to me would be very strange, to see your father as a toddler or what not.

BTW, I hope I'm not getting too personal here. Pardon me if I am.

 

[taijasi]

Regarding the idea of Hierarchies, here are some simplified versions of charts from Alice Bailey's teachings, which will have correspondences - and overlaps - with Theosophical presentations.

Anything that seems of interest, Nick - et al - just mention.

​

​

The first chart concerns our Solar Hierarchy ... the second, Earth's own Planetary Hiearchy, inclusive of all of Humanity, up to the Christ and Masters, and the Lord of the World (YHVH, or `God'). These two charts are both from Initiation Human and Solar.

The 2nd chart is drawn from the perspective of Humanity, but not the Devas (Angelic Kingdom), who share the planet with us ... consisting of ~140 billion evolving Lives, while Humanity only numbers ~60 billion.

Yet another, more elaborate chart (below, from Esoteric Astrology) shows the 7 Remaining Creative Hierarchies ... and this is a somewhat different - we might say, more inclusive - approach ... to the idea of Hierarchies of Life, esoterically.

In the third chart, Humanity stretches across the lower five hierarchies - because our evolution spans these five, of the Seven planes. We have a "multiple" or compound soul ... and even in the simplest analysis there are technically TWO different entities (Individualities) evolving via ONE Reincarnating Soul.

Viewed in terms of trinities, we could be said to be a trinity of trinities - with G-D as the highest, and synthesizing Perfect 10th ... yet what esotericism refers to as the Soul does not descend below the Mental plane - making it the 9th Creative Hierarchy in this chart (counting downward).

​

 

[taijasi]

Some folks go nuts with charts. I remember doing that, and in the end, I have to admit - I could never have come to my present understanding without them!

Of course, there's a lot of conceptuality involved, and attempting to visualize a lot of this is somewhat difficult ... but then, I wonder, what does the average Christian picture when s/he reads Genesis?

So - while I am happy to say that Blake's `Ancient of Days' has always held a certain appeal to me (just as his poetry, and other art), I recognize that this is anthropomorphism, pure & simple.

Is the conceptual approach really superior? It probably drives artistic types crazy!

Still, in five diagrams from A Treastise on Cosmic Fire (two of them excerpted from The Theosophist at the turn of the century), we get from Cosmogenesis squarely into Anthropogenesis.

The first chart is much like what you've already shared, Nick. It shows the Macrocosm, and the relationships between highest Parabrahm and lowest man. Since the microcosm reflects the macrocosm, the next two charts show the Creation of the Solar System by our Solar Logos.

Note in the first chart that a Human Monad fits neatly inside a given one of the Seven Major Planetary Logoi of our Solar System (toward the bottom, Monadic Plane). This means, in effect, that actually human beings belong to one of SEVEN `Fathers Who art in Heaven,' although I take `Father' to refer to the (Human) Monad, rather than the `Parent' Planetary Spirit. Still, we are all strangers here, just passing through.

As for the relationship, people may look at a chart, see a tiny triangle within a greater one, and say that this is absurd! It is, after all, just a chart! Yet to me, the triune relationship is already apparent. I may need clarification, some elaboration on how the Prototypical Three get mirrored for me, and how the personality comes into Communion with the Soul, then returns "to the Father's House" ...

... yet I am confident that I will not find `God' - in the mirror!

The fourth chart shows Our Solar Logos, with the Seven and Three (Ten) Schemes of Spiritual Evolution taking place (during 100 `Years of Brahma,' or 3.11 trillion years) in our Solar System.

The final chart is Earth's Scheme only of Spiritual evolution. All Seven Chains of Seven globes each are depicted, yet we know that these do not co-exist temporally - only, "in the Mind of God."

​

​

​

​

​

And yeah, Francis, you can find plenty of references to `Dvipas' and `Manvantaras' in Hindusim. Care to show us where ol' HPB and AAB got it wrong? Perhaps some illumination and insight into how these charts are off ... or did they get it about right? Wanna remind us - where again - did they take this information, out of those other, more ancient sources?

I am waiting for the Commentary. I would really appreciate some detailed notes. Just demonstrate, if you don't mind, how all we've got here is

"dusprayukta dharma", badly arranged or badly composed teachings...

You know, it shouldn't be difficult. You seem to have a knack for these things!

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hey, Andrew, I see you used that number 3.11 trillion again....