Authenticity of Religious Books

[niranjan]

In the context of the Quran I would not mind it at all but only in the context of the Quran. If you read the verse allowing polygamy the first word are "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans". Some Muslims (generally men) interpret this verse as permission to marry 4 wives but the scholars I adhere to state that the verse refers to times in history when women (for reasons of war or major sickness) are left with children to bring up and no husband (because he is dead). If my husband married one of these women, for these reasons and not for love or lust, I would have no problem with it, in fact I would support the decision completely and help her to bring the children up.

And then how come I know of many arabs and Indian muslims and muslims of other nations who have more than one wife in the present era ? There is no dearth of eligible men in their society due to war or sickness .

Also does your husband have to marry the woman ? He can easily take care of them without marrying her as well. Also would you like it if your husband has sex with this second wife and other wives as well ? Just curious.

 

[niranjan]

The Muslim women that adhere to this do it because they believe they are commanded by Allah to accept this and they will receive their reward in heaven. That does not stop them being jealous, I have had women hysterical with jealousy in my home because their husband wants to take a second wife (usually because the second woman has money I hasten to add).

Except for Indian muslims who do not follow the common civil code, we don't have the above stuff in our society among hindus, buddhists, sikhs , jains, zoroastrians, jews , bahais.

I don't get jealous if my husband has a quick look, he has blood in his veins after all but I do get jealous if he comments or stares like he's in a trance. Well, I am only human. The problem Niranjan is that woman want to be the only one that you love, they want you to believe that they are the most beautiful woman in the world - our self esteem and confidence relies on it. So please just glance and keep your girlfriend happy.

I definetely intend to do that. My lover is the only girl in the world for me.

However I must say that muslim women in Islamic society seems to be lacking confidence , assertiveness and self-esteem. Perhaps violence against them by their husbands and bullying,the easy talaq divorce and the fact that their husband marries other women must be factors in it.

I honestly do not mean to offend you when I state this, as I really appreciate your comments above which touched my heart a bit . I only feel sorry for muslim women. I had a good muslim lady friend of mine when I was a child who was older to me, and whom I called bhaji ( meaning aunt or elder sister, thats what she taught me to address her ). They were my neighbors and I used to play badminton with her. She was very dignified and cultured and unmarried.She left after a few years as she became married . I hope she is safe and sound and happy.

 

[Muslimwoman]

well, thanks for enlightening me again, all, but especially dauer and muslimwoman... quite jealous that I do not know my faith so well... lol

...as has been said, authenticity is a difficult subject to prove, and it makes me think of all the elements of christianity that have changed over the years... jesus as man, now God, mary's role as the mother of jesus, deciding which books of the bible were legitimate and worth keeping, all decided by the whims of a few powerful men...

just hope we all don't throw the baby away with the bathwater, though...

as salaam aleykum Francis

I know very little of my chosen religion, I just speak from my heart. I believe that all humans are born with an instinctive and deep knowledge of G-d and it is our upbringing and choices that keep that with us or see it fall away.

I accept completely what you say about Christianity, I feel the same way about Islam, men corrupt the good because of greed - fact of life. However, what I do is choose to ignore those people and go back to the roots of Islam, I believe in the Islam taught by the Prophet Mohammad and only G-d will tell me if I have followed the right path or not. So can you not do the same with Christianity and study where it came from, find out what scholars say it was before the changes and then believe in that?

I sall give one small example, there are so many verses of the Quran and hadiths stating the equality of women with men. Yet over time hadiths have appeared that say women are the scurge of the earth, so I simply reject these and not because they don't sit well with me but because they go completely against the Quran and what I have learned of how the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) lived his life.

Sometimes it is a hard road to travel, you must go against the masses but what I remind myself every day is that one day I must stand before G-d himself and answer for everything that I do and I don't want to be in a position where He says "your heart knew this was wrong so why did you follow" and my feeble reply would be "because they said I should". No sorry that is not the path for me so I shall struggle on the one I have chosen thankyou.

What do you think, could this work for you?

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

And then how come I know of many arabs and Indian muslims and muslims of other nations who have more than one wife in the present era ? There is no dearth of eligible men in their society due to war or sickness.

Because they believe they can have four wives just because they want to. As you seem genuinely interested I shall give you the 3 verses that refer to polygamy and the view of those that believe it must be under strict circumstances. Perhaps a brother of the school that agrees in polygamy for lust can give their thoughts. Please note that culture plays a very large roll in the issue of interpreting these verses. It is interesting to note that in some towns there is a majority of young men from poorer families without wives, yet men from wealthier families have 2 or 3 wives.

Before we start may I point out that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was married to his first wife Kadijah for 25 years. He only practiced polygamy after her death and that was for political reasons (as proof of this statement look at who each of his later wives were related to)

Before I married I knew this would be a problem for me so my husband to be took me to see the local sheikh (he speaks not one word of English and has never left the middle east so cannot be accused of holding westerised ideas). He showed me the verses and told me which scholars to read – his view was very strict about meeting the conditions for polygamy and said it can only be condoned “when women are without protectors”.

Point 1, it is permissible, not ordained.

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (4:3)

This verse was revealed after the battle of Uhud. In that battle, many Muslim men died and as such a great social problem for the protection of widows and orphans arose, necessitating an institutionalized polygamy for a convenient solution of the problem. The number was limited to 4 wives from the accepted ‘as many as you like’ in those days. How many men with more than one wife now married to protect the women and orphans? When you ask these men about the fact that the verse starts with the issue of orphans, they stutter a lot and then tell me I am a woman so cannot understand the Quran. When my husband asks them they say he is not a scholar so cannot understand. When you point to the scholars that state conditions apply, they reply these scholars are misguided. Perhaps they believe Allah is misguided too?

Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (4:129)

Now go back to versse 4:3 does it not say if you cannot be just then marry only one? This verse refers obviously to man’s inability to be just between two wives. Some scholars say that it deals only with matters of the heart and no man can love 2 women the same. Others disagree and say it says what it says and should not be used as an excuse to extinguish your desires. All seem to agree it states clearly you are not permitted to ignore one wife because your new wife is preferable to you.

You will note that those that state polygamy is allowed as and when you feel like it always refer to it in purely sexual terms as can be seen here and rarely refer to the moral obligations of verse 4:3

IslamonLine.net

This is a comment by a traditional scholar: There are some men who may have strong physical desires, for whom one wife is not enough. If the door is closed to such a man and he is told, you are not allowed more than one wife, this will cause great hardship to him, and his desire may find outlets in forbidden ways.

And of course women just have to cross their legs.

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “Whosoever had two wives and treats one of them more favorably than the other will come on the Day of Judgment bent to one side.” (Reported by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, An-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah) This hadith warns against polygamy should the man not be able to practice equality amongst his wives." Now read again verse 4:129.

It is because of silly views like this that men now take more than one wife, it is assumed that men are not capable of ‘keeping it in their pants’. Having said this I would not want polygamy to be prohibited, so it may be used in times when it is needed and if it is never needed fine but at least it is an option if the situation arises.

This is by Dr Badawi, I find his lectures quite balanced but a little long winded, skip the first sections and go to the bit where he states the verses and their interpretations.

Polygamy in Islamic Law

I don’t agree with everything in here (the figures of 95 males to 100 females hardly calls for some men to have 4 wives and others none – defeats the objective)

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/poly.htm

This is a short article but a good insight by the wisdom fund:

http://www.twf.org/Library/Polygamy.html

Also does your husband have to marry the woman ? He can easily take care of them without marrying her as well. Also would you like it if your husband has sex with this second wife and other wives as well ? Just curious.

No he would have to marry her. Muslims are very modest, it would be wrong for my husband to simply visit her to give her money unless someone was there. What if a child got sick and my husband wanted to help? He could not spend the night with the sick child if the mother was there and they were not married. And this is just one example.

The answer to your second question is obviously no I would not like this nor would I accept it, I would get divorced and return to the west because I have the option to do that. I have mulled over the question of what would be fair to the other wife, should she spend her whole life alone without intimate relations? I still don’t have an answer and would have to deal with that issue if it ever arose but I tend to think a woman in that situation would be grateful just to have the protection for herself and her children, without the nookie. Anyway lets be honest women tend to go off it somewhat after having children, it is less important to women than men. (I know that is a generalisation and possibly bad news to men who have not had kids yet).

I definetely intend to do that. My lover is the only girl in the world for

me.

Maabruk, I am so happy to hear that. I hope you tell her so often and I await with anticipation seeing photos of your wedding. Is she Indian? Indian girls are sooooo beautiful.

However I must say that muslim women in Islamic society seems to be lacking confidence , assertiveness and self-esteem. Perhaps violence against them by their husbands and bullying,the easy talaq divorce and the fact that their husband marries other women must be factors in it.

I cannot talk for Arabic women as I am not one but as this is such an issue with me I do tend to ask them their views. What I find is the older ones hate the idea but seem resigned to it, whereas the younger women simply would not accept it, they would get divorced rather than accept bed hopping. So I think attitudes are changing, albeit slowly. Younger women seem to have much more confidence these days but you are right that insecurity has been a big factor in allowing the oppression of Arabic women – again a generalisation.

I had a good muslim lady friend of mine when I was a child who was older to me, and whom I called bhaji (meaning aunt or elder sister, thats what she taught me to address her). They were my neighbors and I used to play badminton with her. She was very dignified and cultured and unmarried. She left after a few years as she became married . I hope she is safe and sound and happy.

Sorry its another long post but it is an important issue and one I feel must be explained fully.

I too hope such a nice sister is safe and well. Please Naranjan do something for me. The next time you read about an atrocity committed by a so called Muslim and feel outraged and hatred toward Muslims, remember this woman. Not all Muslims are bad, there is good and bad in all walks of life.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

OMG I added something and it won't let me edit. Please note I AM NOT saying the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said something silly, I was refering to the comment by the traditional scholar. Please of a mod sees this will you PLEASE swap those paragraphs around I would hate anyon to read it out of context.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Muslimwoman, I would like to ask you one question. How do you reconcile the historical accounts of Muhammads lack of mercy to captives, and his cold blooded murder of them with this idea that he was a good man?

Regards TE

 

[Muslimwoman]

Muslimwoman, I would like to ask you one question. How do you reconcile the historical accounts of Muhammads lack of mercy to captives, and his cold blooded murder of them with this idea that he was a good man?

Regards TE

Hi TE

Good question. I can of course only give you my personal thoughts and ramblings but for what they are worth here we go.

I reconcile them by considering the historical factors of the time. The Quran only allows for defensive wars and I believe the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) would have followed the Quran. So in my view we are only dealing with defensive actions (I accept that some later Muslims did not stick to this principle). Is anyone in our modern world allowed to torture and kill prisoners of war? No but that doesn't stop it, even by western countries in 2007.

I think it is so easy to look at modern morality and say what an awful person he must have been but the world was a very different place then. So may we take a quick look at a historical timeline:

1492 - Columbus discovered America
1483 - Start of the Spanish Inquisition (they just asked polite questions?)
1095 - Start of the Crusades (killing how many Muslims and Jews?)

Let's jump back 500 years to speed things up

What were my ancestors doing all this time? Ah yes being raped and murdered by Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Normans (to name but a few).

600AD saw the end of the Dark Ages. The Romans had lost their grip on western europe but still controlled everything from Rome to Morocco (right through the Med, Palestine, Egypt and Lybia). Would anyone believe they did this by handing out chocolates and flowers in the market places or do we know they did it by murdering, raping and terrorising populations? Britain had a feudal system and numerous Kings, all raping and murdering to gain power and land.

Do you get where I am going with this? At the time of the Prophet you lived by the sword or you certainly died by someone elses, no matter where you lived or what religion you followed.

Yes the Prophet fought defensive wars and it is true War is Hell. People die in war, horrible things are done to people as an example of what will happen if you attack their tribe. That is just reality. However, when you get past the stories of war you see the gentle, merciful side of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). I could tell you so many stories of the good things he did, of the wars he stopped by diplomacy, of the wives he married to create peace between certain tribes, of the rights he afforded women,etc, etc.

That is how I reconcile it, he did what he had to do to defend the Muslims and I read the stories of his great wisdom and mercy. So often people only read one side of the story and then judge it against modern morality, that is unfair.

Salaam

 

[Tao_Equus]

Thanks for your reply Muslimwoman.

You say that you reconcile my question by consideration of the historical context, that it was live by or die by the sword enviroment. I would agree that historical context is important and hope I made it clear in my previous posts that my whole approach to the Q'uran is that it is an historical document. One written by the victors. Of course.

On other threads I have cited the many attrocities you allude to in your historical reminder of what Christians did in the name of God. I am under no illusions to what men and women can do if given a taste of power over another. And of the mechanisms of self-justification they will employ in the doing. This is the key, IMHO, to reading between the lines.

We cant trust our books on history. When a history book states 100 were killed it may have been 10 or 1000 dependent on the egocentricity of the writer or his paymaster. And so we must seek out independent non-aligned sources. Unfortunately the further we go back the more difficult they become to authenticate.

The vast majority of people who would tick the box Christian have ever even heard the word Gnostic or of the Book of Judas. Tho the Gnostics gave rise to Christianity and the book of Judas is integral to understanding the development of Christianity in Europe. Its a strange situaton that the state of Isreal, Jewish, is in possesion of the documents to crumble the foundations of the mainstream Christian "story". But the Jews are not idealogical expansionists. To them its convenient to have Christianity having broadly the same ideas. And I think they feel the same toward an Islam that respects them. Its all power games to control the soul to control the politics to control economics.

Muhammad, and his cronies, were no different. The written legacy of the times may in terms of casualties be over or understated. Its irrelevant to my contention that Muhammad was a Warlord that would employ any means to further his aims. His aim is clear to define...supremecy of the region. And by the very words of his followers, that you -not me- state to be from Gabrial via Mohammad rape of the captured wives of his enemies is sanctioned. And this is something that persists into the modern day. For this alone, yes just this alone, how can any woman sanction Islam?

You go on to state that your belief that they were defensive wars. Well I will say one thing...this is what they called the invasion of Iraq. Veitnam too was sold as a 'defensive' war. They are nothing of the kind. The defence of a religious conviction is not worth the taking one single solitary life. As Ghandi said "I would die for my cause...but never would I kill for it".

To my mind Islam will always deliver to us extremists because it is a supremicist, leader based ideaology that is the legacy of a power hungry political elite that wished to control not just the minds, but the souls (in that sense they are inseperable), of a battleforce to expand its base. I do not doubt that you amd millions of others can find sections of the Q'uran to support the idea that Islam is peaceable, compassionate and tolerant. But as long as there is one line that glorifies rape and murder then that is exactly what will happen. Would you knowingly accept one cell of the HIV virus into your bloodstream? A sensationalist line you may think but thats just how it is.

So I ask what rights to say NO did he afford the women who's husbands he butchered when he went on to rape them? And in saying this was right and 'just' he gave sanction to it to this day!!

I know you try to bring rationality to Islam. I know you are good in your thoughts and intentions. The sad truth though is Islam as it stands is indefensible in terms of global harmony. Because it fosters hate in testosterone fueled power hungry men. I chose the word 'fosters' with care. Its not mere acceptance. Or even sanction. Islam actively seeks division and violence. It's throughout the Q'uran. Any religion that does that is anathema to the God I feel.

TE

 

[Muslimwoman]

Hi TE

Do me a favour and check out this book review, then nip down the library and grab a copy.

Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet" book review

Karen Armstrong was a cloistered nun and has since written many great books on numerous religions. I like her because she tends to be fair and seems unbiased, trying to just state the historical knowledge. Her book Muhammad: A biography of the Prophet is well worth a read. It doesn't leave out the bloody stuff but does put it into context with the era.

Salaam