Selfishness

C

cyberpi

Guest
Dondi said:
shadowman, this is what God is looking for. You are right, we can't be selfish when it comes to our salvation. In fact, salvation is all about to saving us from our selfishness. If all we are doing is to avoid Hell, we've missed the point.
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Quahom1 said:
Wrong...according to Christianity. Absolutely wrong. Christianity states there is only one way directly to the Father, and that is through the Son. That's it. No other way around it.

There is no room for "wiggling". To suggest to Christians otherwise is plain stupid. If a "Christian" were to accept any other way to God...then what is the purpose of being Christian?

If Christian in heart, then you bypass judgement of life or death, and only are judged for heavenly rewards...if not Christian, then you have a 50/50 chance of making it into heaven (nevermind the rewards)

That is the purest/truest version of Christianity that there is.

deal with it. (but not here on the Christianity thread).
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I think this is worth discussion because I was thinking, RIGHT you are Dondi... but then I saw the thread was condemned (CLOSED) without discussion. Why?

Must a Christian be Selfish? How does a person sacrifice, have mercy, forgive, confess, be patient, give to charity,... essentially Love without reciprocation AND BE selfish? Are you saying Q that is is NOT Christian to Love others as a person Loves themselves?
 
cyberpi said:
I think this is worth discussion because I was thinking, RIGHT you are Dondi... but then I saw the thread was condemned (CLOSED) without discussion. Why?

Must a Christian be Selfish? How does a person sacrifice, have mercy, forgive, confess, be patient, give to charity,... essentially Love without reciprocation AND BE selfish? Are you saying Q that is is NOT Christian to Love others as a person Loves themselves?
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Perhaps I made a mistake (that I can fix).

Your mistake can't be fixed. I already know what you think of me...

I'm very sorry you feel that way. However, that doesn't change the status of life...

v/r

Joshua
 
cyberpi said:
I think this is worth discussion because I was thinking, RIGHT you are Dondi... but then I saw the thread was condemned (CLOSED) without discussion. Why?

Must a Christian be Selfish? How does a person sacrifice, have mercy, forgive, confess, be patient, give to charity,... essentially Love without reciprocation AND BE selfish? Are you saying Q that is is NOT Christian to Love others as a person Loves themselves?
Click to expand...
Luke 10:25-37​
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”​
Q said:
Originally Posted by Quahom1
Wrong...according to Christianity. Absolutely wrong. Christianity states there is only one way directly to the Father, and that is through the Son. That's it. No other way around it.
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While there might not be any way to reach the Father, except through the Son, (Jesus is the "gate.") Jesus did say he had "other sheep, not of this fold," and that a hireling who does not own and love the sheep will allow the wolves to scatter the sheep. I would say that this means there are sheep who hear the voice of the good shepherd, who are not part of the same "fold" as the Christians, but hear the voice of the Good Shepherd, nonetheless, just like the Good Samaritan mentioned above (parable was given in reference to the question: “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”)
John 10:7-16​
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.​
 
seattlegal said:
Luke 10:25-37​
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”​

26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”​

27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”​

28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”​

29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”​

30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”​

37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”​

Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”​
While there might not be any way to reach the Father, except through the Son, (Jesus is the "gate.") Jesus did say he had "other sheep, not of this fold," and that a hireling who does not own and love the sheep will allow the wolves to scatter the sheep. I would say that this means there are sheep who hear the voice of the good shepherd, who are not part of the same "fold" as the Christians, but hear the voice of the Good Shepherd, nonetheless, just like the Good Samaritan mentioned above (parable was given in reference to the question: “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”)

John 10:7-16​
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.​

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.​
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But we really do not know what Jesus meant. He never embellished on the thought. And I hate to admit it, but Christianity is a very selfish and exculsive "club". Therefore no other options are allowed. The Christian ground rules are specific.

I'm sorry that others can't accept that, but then I didn't make up the rules for Christianity.

v/r

Joshua
 
Quahom1 said:
But we really do not know what Jesus meant. He never embellished on the thought. And I hate to admit it, but Christianity is a very selfish and exculsive "club". Therefore no other options are allowed. The Christian ground rules are specific.

I'm sorry that others can't accept that, but then I didn't make up the rules for Christianity.

v/r

Joshua
Click to expand...
Indeed, we don't know exactly what Jesus meant. However, we can choose to be like the Priest and the Levite (members of exclusive clubs) who crossed the road to avoid helping the wounded man, or we can choose to be like the Samaritan, who showed mercy towards him. (It makes me wonder about just who made the rules for the Priest and Levite to avoid the wounded man...)
 
seattlegal said:
Indeed, we don't know exactly what Jesus meant. However, we can choose to be like the Priest and the Levite (members of exclusive clubs) who crossed the road to avoid helping the wounded man, or we can choose to be like the Samaritan, who showed mercy towards him. (It makes me wonder about just who made the rules for the Priest and Levite to avoid the wounded man...)
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Until the wounded man punches the Samaritan in the face over and over again...no thank you.
 
Quahom1 said:
I'm not asking for your forgiveness...can you handle that?
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I forgive you for any mistakes you've made. Will you forgive me for whatever mistake that you think I made, and whatever you claim to know that I think about you?
 
Kindest Regards, all!

Fashionably late, I suppose...

Perhaps I am still under the influence of Ayn Rand, but I do not see selfishness as inherently "bad." Indeed, if one considers, the typical Christian act of charity is driven by selfishness. From my POV, Mother Theresa was selfish.

How can I dare suggest such a thing? Simple...she was driven by the selfish desire to love as many as possible, in order to achieve heaven. Selfishness is not bad, much like guns and cars and free will are not bad. It is what we do with these tools that determines the "good and bad" aspects, and then it is still tied to our actions and motives...motives which are quite typically selfish.

I am hungry. That is selfish of me. Yet, you will not feed me simply because I am hungry. If you see I am hungry, and have no means to get food, and you have the ability to feed me, you may choose (selfishly) to feed me. Or you may selfishly choose to keep all of your food for yourself and family for another day, and send me on my way. Both are selfish actions, only one of which *might* be determined to be "bad." From my vantage, being hungry, I know which one that is, but there are other considerations that may not cross my mind...perhaps you have a squeaky tight budget, or only have food for a few days? Dunno, but there are a lot of possibilities surrounding a personal *judgment* of this scenario, and we are not assigned to cast *condemnation* on another without first walking a mile in their shoes.

I love the parable of the Good Samaritan for many reasons...not least it shows me that in the face of condemnation by others, I still have a hope of salvation by G-d. The Samaritans were held in disdain by the Jews, they were lesser than dogs. All the more irony, that an "unsaved" one should be noted for performing a goodly action worthy of salvation towards one "already saved." While others "already saved" basically went their merry way, saying "but for the grace of G-d, there is me. Sure glad it's not, thanks G-d!" Too often we can't be bothered with the struggles of others...add in the conflict across religious boundaries, and it's no wonder there are misgivings leading as far as war. Rather, shouldn't we see our brothers and sisters as just that, brothers and sisters. Regardless of skin color, regardless of socio-economic position, regardless of religious affinity? G-d will work through whom He chooses...I am continually amazed at the love and charity and good deeds exhibited by "other sheep" outside of the fold of Christianity. Sadly, I am also witness far too often, of the lack of love and charity and good deeds by so-called Christians towards those outside of the faith.

Selfishness is natural. Having the spirit of G-d move through a person is natural only if the person is tuned to G-d. G-d will not move through an unsaved or unsalvageable person. Evidence of the Holy Spirit is entirely based on actions and deeds. Show me your faith without works, I will show you my faith by my works. I know this appears to contradict an awful lot of Sunday school teaching, but it is quite Biblical. ;)

My two cents.
 
cyberpi said:
I forgive you for any mistakes you've made. Will you forgive me for whatever mistake that you think I made, and whatever you claim to know that I think about you?
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Ahhhh Sato, nothing to forgive...:p
 
Pathless said:
So are we to base our actions on Fear? Is that the Christian thing to do? I thought Jesus was rooted in Love.

:)
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Look, I "love" my Dad. However I still "fear" him (hold him in awe).

I love Jesus, but I am in fear of Him too...for very good reason...He's much bigger than I can ever hope to be.
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, all!

Fashionably late, I suppose...

Perhaps I am still under the influence of Ayn Rand, but I do not see selfishness as inherently "bad." Indeed, if one considers, the typical Christian act of charity is driven by selfishness. From my POV, Mother Theresa was selfish.

How can I dare suggest such a thing? Simple...she was driven by the selfish desire to love as many as possible, in order to achieve heaven. Selfishness is not bad, much like guns and cars and free will are not bad. It is what we do with these tools that determines the "good and bad" aspects, and then it is still tied to our actions and motives...motives which are quite typically selfish.

I am hungry. That is selfish of me. Yet, you will not feed me simply because I am hungry. If you see I am hungry, and have no means to get food, and you have the ability to feed me, you may choose (selfishly) to feed me. Or you may selfishly choose to keep all of your food for yourself and family for another day, and send me on my way. Both are selfish actions, only one of which *might* be determined to be "bad." From my vantage, being hungry, I know which one that is, but there are other considerations that may not cross my mind...perhaps you have a squeaky tight budget, or only have food for a few days? Dunno, but there are a lot of possibilities surrounding a personal *judgment* of this scenario, and we are not assigned to cast *condemnation* on another without first walking a mile in their shoes.

I love the parable of the Good Samaritan for many reasons...not least it shows me that in the face of condemnation by others, I still have a hope of salvation by G-d. The Samaritans were held in disdain by the Jews, they were lesser than dogs. All the more irony, that an "unsaved" one should be noted for performing a goodly action worthy of salvation towards one "already saved." While others "already saved" basically went their merry way, saying "but for the grace of G-d, there is me. Sure glad it's not, thanks G-d!" Too often we can't be bothered with the struggles of others...add in the conflict across religious boundaries, and it's no wonder there are misgivings leading as far as war. Rather, shouldn't we see our brothers and sisters as just that, brothers and sisters. Regardless of skin color, regardless of socio-economic position, regardless of religious affinity? G-d will work through whom He chooses...I am continually amazed at the love and charity and good deeds exhibited by "other sheep" outside of the fold of Christianity. Sadly, I am also witness far too often, of the lack of love and charity and good deeds by so-called Christians towards those outside of the faith.

Selfishness is natural. Having the spirit of G-d move through a person is natural only if the person is tuned to G-d. G-d will not move through an unsaved or unsalvageable person. Evidence of the Holy Spirit is entirely based on actions and deeds. Show me your faith without works, I will show you my faith by my works. I know this appears to contradict an awful lot of Sunday school teaching, but it is quite Biblical. ;)

My two cents.
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That's because actions speak louder than words. Or put another way...show me the company you keep, and I'll know what kind of person you are...;)
 
Quahom1 said:
I hate to admit it, but Christianity is a very selfish and exculsive "club". Therefore no other options are allowed. The Christian ground rules are specific.

I'm sorry that others can't accept that, but then I didn't make up the rules for Christianity.
Click to expand...
No, but neither did Christ MAKE UP such rules ... or at least, some of us believe. Thus we do NOT find such a brand of "Christianity" (patterning one's behavior after the Christ of Love) to be either appealing, or in the least bit inviting.

When "Love thy neighbor, and thine enemy (even!)" gets turned into a "member's only CLUB,"we no longer have what the Master intended. Not that he expected perfection, or immediate Planetary Peace (and true Brotherhood).

But we will WORK toward these goals, and endure whatever injustices, personal attacks, and so forth ... during the process. And one day, folks will catch on. Hopefully, soon enough to avert all sorts of disasters - which really occur, when everything is said & done, in the name of selfishness. :(

(or in the name of, "MY religion above ALL OTHERS" ... for this is exactly what is so troubling about the situation in parts of the Middle East - but not just there)

Oh for the day of `LOVE to all beings, PEACE to all beings, Will-to-Good to all beings ... ' :)
 
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