Chinese Medicine

wil

wil

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Snoopy said:
I would never take up Chinese medicine for ethical reasons.:mad:
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Can you expound on this, I'm confused as to how Chinese medicine is unethical...Traditional Chinese Medicine? Five Element? They had a rural system that you picked a local doctor and funded his existence in your community, you paid him when you and your family was well. You paid him with whatever your crop was, or whatever your trade or money if possible. If you were sick and couldn't work, you didn't have to pay...if you were really sick you moved into his house for care as there was no hospital....he had a desire to keep you healthy, he wanted you to keep paying and surely didn't want you in his house.
 
I am sorry I missed this in context, I'll have to follow up.

I fail to see how Chinese medicine is unethical too.

In addition to wil's points, I would add the concepts of meridians and balance.

There is also the matter of addressing the underlying causes...rather than the symptoms, in contrast to western medicine.

Western medicine is superior in treatment of traumatic injury. IMHO, Chinese medicine is superior for chronic ailments.
 
Hi Everyone :)

While I have a deep respect for much of Chinese medicinal practices, I think that there are some aspects of it that threaten the survival of certain animal species, and there are some concerns regarding cruelty.

Is this what you were referring to, Snoop?

InPeace,
InLove
 
Bingo my dear.

Maybe I should have been more specific; not all TCM, but this is what I am referring to:

(and maybe I shouldn't have said "unethical"; I should have said "abhorrent.")

"China is currently the world’s largest market for medicines derived from endangered species and wildlife parts, including tiger bones, rhino horns, deer antlers, turtle shells, and bear bile. According to the World Wildlife Fund, the increasing popularity of TCM over the past two decades has increased poaching and illegal trade of threatened and endangered wildlife to “crisis levels,” negating progress made to protect these animals through endangered species laws and nature reserves. TCM has been named the top conservation threat, above the loss of habitat, for Asia’s severely depleted bear, tiger, and rhinoceros populations."


Conference on Traditional Chinese Medicine Marks Shift Towards Global Market, Raises Concerns About Social and Ecological Impact | Worldwatch Institute


When it comes to keeping a bear in agony while a catheter draws bile from its liver you can shove your yin and yang up your forbidden city.:mad: (sorry, that's not personal; it just disgusts me; I am an advocate of treating people holistically).


s.
 
wil said:
Can you expound on this, I'm confused as to how Chinese medicine is unethical...Traditional Chinese Medicine? Five Element? They had a rural system that you picked a local doctor and funded his existence in your community, you paid him when you and your family was well. You paid him with whatever your crop was, or whatever your trade or money if possible. If you were sick and couldn't work, you didn't have to pay...if you were really sick you moved into his house for care as there was no hospital....he had a desire to keep you healthy, he wanted you to keep paying and surely didn't want you in his house.
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I really like this system. It rewards health, not illness. Incompetent doctors will soon drop out of the system if they can't keep their patients healthy enough to work. And, best of all, it doesn't require a huge governmental bureaucracy.

I do agree with Snoopy about the non-herbal medicines, though. I feel the same way about premarin, made from the urine of pregnant mares who are stuck in their stalls with cathoders.
 
seattlegal said:
It rewards health, not illness. Incompetent doctors will soon drop out of the system if they can't keep their patients healthy enough to work.
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So if there was, say, a pandemic of the Black Death to sweep around the world, all the doctors would be made unemployed because they couldn't keep their patients healthy?

s.
 
seattlegal said:
If their patients die, who will support them?
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sorry sg, as often seems to be the case I don't get your point (I think I may be going senile). Can you be more explicit? Maybe a diagram too.:)

s.
 
Snoopy said:
sorry sg, as often seems to be the case I don't get your point (I think I may be going senile). Can you be more explicit? Maybe a diagram too.:)

s.
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If you have no customers, you have no income.

Perhaps this might help:
An farmer who has an orange orchard sees the forecast for a coming deep freeze. Of course the farmer will do all he can to protect the crop and the trees from the freeze. However, if the freeze is severe, and the farmer loses the crop, it does not mean that the farmer will also allow the trees to also die. (Just losing the crop is a minor setback. Losing the trees would put him out of business.)
 
So are you saying an "incurable" disease requires no doctors? Is there no place for palliative care? (TCM being one for a holistic approach) What about them being involved in research? Are doctors not needed in the fight against HIV/AIDS?

s.
 
Snoopy said:
So are you saying an "incurable" disease requires no doctors? Is there no place for palliative care? (TCM being one for a holistic approach) What about them being involved in research? Are doctors not needed in the fight against HIV/AIDS?

s.
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What are you talking about? The way the system is set up is that the doctor gets paid while his patients are able to work, and does not get paid when his patients are unable to work. A person might still be able to work if a doctor can help the patient successfully manage an incurable or chronic disease, and the doctor would still get paid. However, it would be much more profitable to both doctor and patient if the doctor was able to cure the problem, rather than just help manage the symptoms.

That is the difference between the Chinese approach and the current approach. The current approach financially rewards illness (by treating it), while the Chinese approach financially rewards health (by cultivating it).
 
seattlegal said:
What are you talking about? The way the system is set up is that the doctor gets paid while his patients are able to work, and does not get paid when his patients are unable to work.
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What “system” are you on about? The American? The British? Another? All?
I’m not fussed about this going off topic, but I’m not about to conflate health with the political thinking behind any particular health care structure.


A person might still be able to work if a doctor can help the patient successfully manage an incurable or chronic disease, and the doctor would still get paid. However, it would be much more profitable to both doctor and patient if the doctor was able to cure the problem, rather than just help manage the symptoms.
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I’m sure it would. I imagine the patient does want to get rid of the disease and the doctor does want to cure them of it, but that obviously isn’t always possible, as per my example of HIV and the Black Death; irrespective of how much more “profitable” it would be to be cured. Deadly viruses tend not to be interested in the profit motive.

That is the difference between the Chinese approach and the current approach. The current approach financially rewards illness (by treating it), while the Chinese approach financially rewards health (by cultivating it)
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Financially rewards illness? That's a bit beyond me I'm sorry to say.

s.
 
Snoopy said:
What “system” are you on about? The American? The British? Another? All?
I’m not fussed about this going off topic, but I’m not about to conflate health with the political thinking behind any particular health care structure.
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Then why did you bring up Chinese medicine in particular? Western medicine does some of the same things you complain about in the Chinese system (My example of Premarin being one.)
 
seattlegal said:
Then why did you bring up Chinese medicine in particular? Western medicine does some of the same things you complain about in the Chinese system (My example of Premarin being one.)
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Actually I didn’t. MW did in this thread:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/allowing-child-molesters-in-church-7088-9.html#post105353

I posted a comment in reply to her post and wil copied and pasted it as the OP of this thread.

I have not heard of Premarin but I agree with you. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I am opposed to ill treatment of animals whoever or wherever it is committed. And yes, that includes testing on animals. I realise that all creatures by living cause suffering and death for others, but I suppose it is a matter of one’s own conscience as to what is “acceptable” or ethical. I try to make ethical choices and for me this means giving Chinese medicine a wide berth. Similarly (or not) I could buy a salad from Mcdonalds but for me this would be putting money in the pocket of a company I find abhorrent. So I don’t.

But now I’m rambling…

s.
 
Snoopy said:
I try to make ethical choices and for me this means giving Chinese medicine a wide berth.
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One could make the argument that one would have to give everything in this world a wide berth then, no?
 
seattlegal said:
One could make the argument that one would have to give everything in this world a wide berth then, no?
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One could indeed, but it would be an impossible position to take, since no creature can live and not cause suffering and death to others by itself living. So as I said, it comes down to what an individual's own conscience finds acceptable. The only way I could not harm any other creature would be to end my own life deliberately but then that in itself would mean the harming of a creature and hence contrary to the ideal of a perfectly harmless life.

s.
 
Snoopy said:
So if there was, say, a pandemic of the Black Death to sweep around the world, all the doctors would be made unemployed because they couldn't keep their patients healthy?
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Yes doctors who lost patients would lose revenue....but that would happen in either system would it not?

I understand your concern for the tigers, and there is also antlers, and other things...there was a mention of Premarin....but when speaking holisticly where does your thesis end in this regard?

I take it you are a vegan? Not using salmon, mackeral and tuna to bolster omega3/6 fatty acids for heart and brain function? Tigers maybe currently endangered but our oceans are also being depleted by those looking for healthier cadaver supplements.
 
wil said:
Yes doctors who lost patients would lose revenue....but that would happen in either system would it not?
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well from the way it seems to being explained to me, the "Chinese system" seems to involve a rather simplistic relationship between health and money.

....but when speaking holisticly where does your thesis end in this regard?
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not sure what you mean here wil...?

I take it you are a vegan? Not using salmon, mackeral and tuna to bolster omega3/6 fatty acids for heart and brain function? Tigers maybe currently endangered but our oceans are also being depleted by those looking for healthier cadaver supplements
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Lacto-vegetarian if you insist!:) So I don't take supplements of the kind you mention. Why stop at oceans? Planet earth is being depleted, courtesy of man IMHO.

s.
 
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