are 'atheists' taking over buddhism?

Discussion in 'Eastern Religions and Philosophies' started by _Z_, May 27, 2007.

  1. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Hi Snoopy,

    Thank you for the post.

    you realize that this is a Shastra not a Suttra/Sutta, correct?

    metta,

    ~v
     
  2. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    Hi Vaj,


    Well, yes and no! Yes as in I knew it wasn’t a sutra, but no because I’ve managed to avoid coming across the word shastra before. So thanks for that, a new word added to my vocabulary! As shastras are apparently “explanations” I could in my own liberal way use the word to describe the lotus flower held up by the Buddha perhaps and so “understood” by Mahakasyapa? Perhaps not…

    Anyway, does it affect the quote’s value if it is not a sutra, to you? I’m not trying to make a value judgment (no pun intended), just asking. I think perhaps I “use” whatever resonates, whether it be a sutra, a shastra (ha!), a book by modern folk such as Seung Sahn, suizen, haiku, a sunset…

    I think I have a magpie approach, you know, bird-brained!

    s.
     
  3. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Snoopy,

    Shastras are particular to the school in which they are given but, more importantly, are specific responses to questions asked by students. to determine if this advice is applicable to us we'd need to determine if we have the same capacities as the student whom posed the question.

    that said i often find the Ch'an approach to be too oblique for my needs though if it works for you :)

    the reason i asked the question is due to the Buddhas teachings regarding the nature of being and the process by which a being, generally, undergoes training in the Dharma.

    though let me ask you.. do you suppose that this master is instructing the student to dispense with his practice?

    metta,

    ~v
     
  4. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro

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    I beg to disagree with you here, Snoopy. Your path sounds similar to mine (and your "manager"'s) - the :kitty: path.

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  5. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    Hi Vaj,

    Could you expand on this please?

    Certainly not! It is "seeking" that one should dispense with.

    s.
     
  6. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    Hi Phyllis,

    Well I do take my manager as my role model; particularly in the amount of sleep he manages to get in.:p

    s.
     
  7. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Snoopy,

    thank you for the post.

    have you heard the term "amongst the Wise" in the Buddha Dharma? the "wise" refer to beings that have properly cognized the teachings and have put them into practice in accordance with the methods elucidated by the Buddha Shakyamuni.

    perhaps these suttas will be of some interest:

    AN 5.76: Yodhajiva Sutta

    AN 3.73: Sakka Sutta

    interesting.

    "Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

    "And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

    "And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver 2 are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.

    "And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.

    "I, too, monks, before my Awakening, when I was an unawakened bodhisatta, being subject myself to birth, sought what was likewise subject to birth. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, I sought [happiness in] what was likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement. The thought occurred to me, 'Why do I, being subject myself to birth, seek what is likewise subject to birth? Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, why do I seek what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement? What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding? What if I, being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, were to seek the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less,, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?'

    MN 26: Ariyapariyesana Sutta

    metta,

    ~v
     
  8. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    You should have been British.;)


    Thanks for the links.

    What would have been your answer to your question?

    s.
     
  9. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Snoopy,

    thank you for the post.

    :p

    the manner in which the monk was going about his searching was based upon some philosophical suppositions which are not supported in the Buddha Dharma.. in other words, he was going about it in the wrong manner :)

    the Noble Search is one which is encouraged whereas the ignoble search is the one which is discouraged.

    metta,

    ~v
     
  10. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    Hi Vaj,

    Thanks for your response.

    I happened to come across an article by John Tarrant, Director of the Pacific Zen Institute. The article was concerned with koans, however, this final comment by him I think is relevant, as it (I believe) clearly expresses what I apparently have been unable to in this thread!

    “I was asked to write about Zen and have written about the path of transformation. It’s fair to mention that there is another flavour of Zen in which people don’t seek transformation. Their position is a subtle one, and it goes like this: if you have the nature of awakening intrinsically, then anything you might do to change yourself is unnecessary. If you set off to get awakened, well, you are making trouble for yourself. They have a point: the paradox in trying to transform your own consciousness is that the effort to change prevents change. It’s like thinking about not falling when you are on a tightrope – it’s just going to confuse matters. So that school, which is called Soto, doesn’t really use koans and favours simple sitting meditation and ceremonies as the embodiment of the perfection that already exists.”

    s.
     
  11. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Snoopy,

    thank you for the post.

    the Soto school of Ch'an Buddhism is one which does not resonate with me in a significant manner. nevertheless, i do appreciate their mondos and their methods are effective for beings that have the capacity for their teachings.

    did you know that there are six (seven) other schools of Japanese Buddhism?

    here's a time line of significant events in the history of Japanese Buddhism:

    Timeline of Major Events in Japanese Buddhism

    in the modern era, three main division exist within the Japanese Buddhist system, schools based on Amida, Ch'an (Zen) and Nichiren:

    the Amidist schools:

    JÅ￾do shÅ« - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Jodo Shinshu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    the Ch'an (Zen) schools:

    SÅ￾tÅ￾ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Rinzai school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    ÅŒbaku (school of Buddhism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Fuke Zen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Nichiren:

    Nichiren Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    metta,

    ~v
     
  12. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    Hi Vaj,

    Yes I'm aware of these various schools but thanks for the links. One person's resonance is another's discord :)

    s.
     

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