condemnation, justice and punishment

[shadowman]

is it logical to assume that a just god has to administer punishment? can there be justice without punishment? Or is the christian god just an example of one dynamic, where justice does imply punishment?

I get why everyone is condemned I think. It would be impossible to draw a line that says who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. To make it easy christianity condemns everyone and then offers everyone jesus as a way out. I think... or is my understanding of christianity off? I understand there is a big deal about the throne of judgement in the end days. some chrisitans have me believing that god is gonna have a yes/no for acceptance of jesus checklist, and this is what will determine fate. others say god is gonna judge everyone according to their works, which seems a bit less harsh than the "any guilty of breaking one of these laws is guilkty of breaking the whole." (someone help me with that quote)

I also recall that many parts of the bible make it seem like works and godliness in actions are important, so this as does the bit about judging according to works, seems to reflect a vision that has god judging everyone according to every intricate deal of life and reality, which seems next to impossible for any human to comprehend...

next bit:

I dont see why god has to condemn in the first place. I can see the point in corrective punishment. but condemnation with no hope of salvation for eternity always has seemed too harsh for my tastes. it just doesnt seem godly enough, too barbarianish and childish. I find it hard to intellectually relate to such a god...

I also dont see the point in condemning imperfect humans for being imperfect... It seems ridiculous. The old testament is clear on how insanely bad humans are at keeping gods covenant. how is he gonna expect us imperfect humans to all accept jesus. its obvious that punishing imperfect beings for being imperfect is more than a little off...

I mean god hates sin, and yet he commends eternal torment of humans ...dont pussy foot around with "god wills that no man should go to hell, thats a load of crap. will implies action, and an omnipotent god who wills that no one goes to hell, would not have a hell in the firstplace. if humans are going to hell and he knows about it, then he doesnt "will" that no one should go to hell, he hopes. and its a hope that isnt strong enough to make him rescue anyone from being tormented FOREVER

I know we are supposedly blessed with free will and that it is our choice. but this is a can of worms. if our will is free, then why do people pick different paths in life. we are all here with the same unconditioned brain at birth and then similar roads, paths and interactions. with this in mind, the number of people getting saved vs the ones not getting saved suggests that the driver behind the invisible wheels i s plotting something. it looks to me like he is creating some for heaven and some for hell, it cant just be random like it looks like it is. and it looks very random. salvation is based on what one ascertains as true right?its based on holding certain ideas in the head, at certain times... well Im rambling, but these aree some of the questions I am currently working with

 

[Dondi]

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:26-28

It would certainly appear that every human has been put in a certain place at a certain time as ordained by God. But according to this verse, it certainly isn't the intention to keep people from finding God. Quite the contrary, because God is not far from us, if we just seek Him out. In this passage, Paul is speaking on Mar's Hill to certain Greeks who have set up a house of statues dedicated to their idols, but then he comes across one that
says, "To the Unknown God". That one was set up to cover any "gods" that the Greeks missed. But Paul uses this to proclaim the One True God.

God is not so far from each of us, if we just seek Him out earnestly. I believe God has programmed in every human being the idea of God and through our conscious minds, we can find Him.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;" - Romans 2:14-15

We have a witness in our conscience which shows us the Law of God. It is inbred in us from the beginning. Now that conscience might get seared as with a hot iron, but that's only because we allow it. But if we are honest with ourselves and with God, that conscience will point us to Him.

Karl Rahner propagated the idea that there are "anonymous" Christians. As per his definition:

We prefer the terminology according to which that man is called an ‘anonymous Christian’ who on the one hand has de facto accepted of his freedom this gracious self-offering on God’s part through faith, hope, and love, while on the other he is absolutely not yet a Christian at the social level (through baptism and membership of the Church) or in the sense of having consciously objectified his Christianity to himself in his own mind (by explicit Christian faith resulting from having hearkened to the explicit Christian message) We might therefore put it as follows: the ‘anonymous Christian’ in our sense of the term is the pagan after the beginning of the Christian mission, who lives in the state of Christ’s grace through faith, hope and love, yet who has no explicit knowledge of the fact that his life is orientated in grace-given salvation to Jesus Christ. 1

Source: Karl Rahner’s Concept of the ‘Anonymous Christian’ An Inclusivist View of Religions

I'd like to think that God in His mercy takes in consideration the fact that the name of Jesus will not reach everyone, yet through the conscience the gospel is thus preached and the Blood applied. I believe in a fair God. God is going to judge according to the heart, not the head.


BTW, the verse you are looking for is in James 2:10:

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Basically James is speaking of not being hypocritical when it comes to obeying the law. In other words, you might keep the law about adultery, but if you don't keep the law about murder, then you are a sinner just the same. What commandments you do keep you are keeping in vain if you don't keep the rest.

Interestingly, James follows up with this statement:

"Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!"

God will be merciful to those who have shown mercy. Where do you stand?

 

[cyberpi]

Shadow,
I think you are closer to God than you may know. How would you prefer that God treat you with regard to condemnation, justice, and punishment? How would you prefer that God treat those who sin against you?

 

[Quahom1]

Shadow,
I think you are closer to God than you may know. How would you prefer that God treat you with regard to condemnation, justice, and punishment? How would you prefer that God treat those who sin against you?

Indeed, he is closer than you and me. Those in peril are closest to God. but then, you knew that.

So, finish the statement "I think you are closer to God than you may know", without the detractor clause that follows. Otherwise it means nothing.

you started it, you finish it.

v/r

Q

and if you can't Cyb, I will...

 

[cyberpi]

Indeed, he is closer than you and me. Those in peril are closest to God. but then, you knew that.

Well, I'd prefer to be closer to God. Do I read it right that you wish to be more distant?

Quahom1, how would you prefer that God treat you with regard to condemnation, justice, and punishment? How would you prefer that God treat those who sin against you?

 

[Quahom1]

Well, I'd prefer to be closer to God. Do I read it right that you wish to be more distant?

Quahom1, how would you prefer that God treat you with regard to condemnation, justice, and punishment? How would you prefer that God treat those who sin against you?

I believe my "relationship" with God is quite self evident, for those who have read my postings for the past four years.

As to your second question. I would hope that mercy is met out along with any neccessary justice. Indeed we all live in a "state of grace" as it is.

v/r

Q