Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Jul 7, 2007.

  1. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Hi everybody!

    I thought I would give a Theosophical response to the question. (I do not give Theosophical responses in Christian threads.)

    Theosophy does not see it as God tormenting us. We cause the conditions ourslves. We have no one but to blame but ourselves. (As a matter of fact, I have just been reading a psychic person's story of his visit to one of his pre-mortem clients in Hell, to check up on him. It is a fascinating story.)

    Theosophy definitely teaches that Hell happens, but not an eternal Hell. Fortunately, we see the possibility of people spending time in both Heaven and Hell between incarnations.
     
  2. ChristianMyst

    ChristianMyst New Member

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

    I should think that when people are done tormenting themselves and each other, this question and the reference to time will become a moot point. Man is solely responsible for himself. And, responsibility is something that Man learns over time. We weren't tormented when we got here, we learned this unque skill. As well, and in time, we shall do away with it. Futility comes to mind as the great lesson, the futility that results from the course of action of most. There have been illuminaries from all walks and faiths, beliefs and philosophies who have shown that we have [choice.] "As we sow, so shall we reap."
     
  3. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

    Christian,

    I know that you are a full-time psychic. Do you have contact with people on the other side of death?
     
  4. ChristianMyst

    ChristianMyst New Member

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

    A Medium, actually. A psychic does indeed sense the impressions about another, and a Medium does this as well. But they have the ability to make a connection and have a discourse. Further still, their sensitivities will pick up considerably more information as pertians to those passed over as those other Planes of Consciousness convey [more] in their efforts than would we on this physical realm. Yes I am a medium, and a psychic. Yes, I have contact with people on the othe side of death, frequently and routinely. (By the way, I like the way you correctly phrased your question.) I don't quite understand why people refer to such connections as communicating with the dead; obviously they are not dead or we would not be communicating. They may no longer have need for their physical body, but they didn't have it before they came into being on this physical world either. Whether before physical birth, during this lifetime, or after physical death, the consciousness that is us can be reached, and this is what mediumship accomplishes.

    Is this question in reference to the topic concept of God tourmenting us (as if [He] could possibly be bothered in this pointless endeavor), or to the psychic story of communicating with someone in Hell? If the latter, I have to tell you it is pretty difficult at this level of our evolution of Consciousness to be naturally connected with any form of Hell. It would take considerable effort, and would prove most difficult, as the very Nature of Hell would be so very inconsistent with most humans at this stage of development. But then again, the same could be true of the very upper regions of the Heavenly Plane, but with lessor constraint. The Ring - Pass Not concept well known in Theosophy is self-evident to the Medium; we can connect as High as our own constitutions are developed to allow. Unfortunately, this is all too often that very same Mental Plane (Heavens).

    The concept of Planes themselves, although graphically and literally well described in Theosophy, Hinduism, Buddhism and some other Eastern philosophies, as well as in ancient cultures, may be unknown, or without reference to many religions.

    Did you need to place a Person-to-Person? Although we have no roll-over minutes, we do have some great "Guide" plans.
     
  5. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    ~~(^.^)~~

    Christian, you said,
    "...(I like the way you correctly phrased your question.) I don't quite understand why people refer to such connections as communicating with the dead; obviously they are not dead or we would not be communicating."

    --> It has been said some of them are more alive than we are. (I think we agree on this one.)
    "They may no longer have need for their physical body, but they didn't have it before they came into being on this physical world either."

    --> I think the purpose of physical life is to eventually get to the point where we no longer need a physical body. Fortunately, some people have already got to that point, or are close to it.
    "Is this question in reference to the topic concept of God tourmenting us (as if [He] could possibly be bothered in this pointless endeavor), or to the psychic story of communicating with someone in Hell?"

    --> It is in reference to the idea of the (non?) eternal nature of Heaven, Hell, etc. It it the Christian premise these are eternal, while it it the Theosophical premise that they are not. It seems that, if you have direct contact with such realms, you can share with us news of their (non?) eternal nature.
    "It would take considerable effort, and would prove most difficult, as the very Nature of Hell would be so very inconsistent with most humans at this stage of development."

    --> I suppose it would be difficult, and no doubt over-straining. I was recently reading of an Earthly psychic/medium who visited a now-dead client in Hell, and the story was fascinating.
    "But then again, the same could be true of the very upper regions of the Heavenly Plane, but with lessor constraint. The Ring - Pass Not concept well known in Theosophy is self-evident to the Medium; we can connect as High as our own constitutions are developed to allow. Unfortunately, this is all too often that very same Mental Plane (Heavens)."

    --> This brings up an important Theosophical concept, that there are levels above "Heaven". This, too, leads to the conclusion that "Heaven" is temporary.
    "Did you need to place a Person-to-Person?"
    --> Fortunately, no. I am merely snooping around for evidence of the non-eternal nature of Heaven and Hell.

    People might be interested to hear you travel around the country, giving readings. Is your web-page with upcoming appearance-locations up to date?
     
  6. ChristianMyst

    ChristianMyst New Member

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

    Indeed.

    And, so it is.

    I would be glad to particpate where there is interest.

    I have two more tour stops this month in Ohio, then I will be taking a couple of months off to finish up two books.

     
  7. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

    Hi Guys

    Sorry I am completely ignorant of Theosophy but your discussion caught my eye (I have never even heard a bump in the night, other than when I fall out of bed).

    Just out of interest Christian, Islam speaks of the different levels of heaven and hell.

    Can you post a link for your website, I would be interested to have a read.

    Your discussion makes me think of something I have been considering for a while now. We do tend to put very 'human' parameters on G-d and the afterlife, therefore make mental images of this long line of souls waiting to be judged like naughty schoolchildren. Islam teaches that on the day of our judgement we will be totally aware of every good and bad deed we have done in our life. Can you imagine that amount of guilt and shame hitting you all at once :eek: Would we not punish ourselves simply through our awareness?

    Sorry it is not a solid thought at the moment just something I have been considering.

    Christian may I ask whether anything of heaven has been described to you in a way that you simply do not understand? I ask because Islam teaches that we could never begin to imagine G-d or heaven, so if it was described to me I am assuming I would be confused by the descriptions.

    Salaam
     
  8. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    ~~(^.^)~~

    Muslimwoman, you said,
    "...Islam speaks of the different levels of heaven and hell."

    --> Does Islam speak of levels above Heaven and Hell?
    "We do tend to put very 'human' parameters on G-d and the afterlife...."

    --> Such 'human' parameters are discouraged in Theosophy.
    "...mental images of this long line of souls waiting to be judged like naughty schoolchildren."

    --> Theosophy teaches that any judging is instantaneous, and no one waits. However, I, too, remember having such images, back when I was a Christian. By the way, via a psychic, I was able to hear how my deceased father's Judgement went. It was a fascinating story.
    "Islam teaches that on the day of our judgement we will be totally aware of every good and bad deed we have done in our life."
    --> This agrees with Theosophy perfectly. More advanced souls will be aware of several lifetimes at once, and see a line of cause and effect between several lifetimes.


    By the way, Theosophy teaches of multiple Judgement Days. I suppose Islam does not. (The idea of "waiting" for a Judgement Day does not occur in Theosophy.)
    "Can you imagine that amount of guilt and shame hitting you all at once...."

    --> Yes, I can. There is one idea I would like to add. According to Theosophy, other ideas of good and bad may be added during Judgement.
    "Would we not punish ourselves simply through our awareness?"

    --> According to Theosophy, we judge ourselves. Therefore, what you have described is more in line with a Theosophical Judgement.
    "Sorry it is not a solid thought at the moment just something I have been considering."

    --> I am glad to see you are starting to consider such things. I have been considering such things for decades.
    "...we could never begin to imagine G-d or heaven...."
    --> Theosophy certainly agrees with the first part of this statement. By the way, why do you say G-d instead of God?
     
  9. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Re: ~~(^.^)~~

    Hi Nick

    Yes above the levels of heaven is the level(s) where Allah Himself exists.

    There is much debate about the number of levels in heaven, many say it is 7 but others talk of the levels within levels - so we don't really know the number. The highest level is for the pure (Prophets (pbut), the truely righteous, etc) and that level is the nearest to the level(s) of Allah.

    What do you believe 'is' the level(s) above heaven and hell? What exists there?


    Sorry I was very tired when I posted last night so may not have put my thoughts across very clearly.

    As a Muslim I believe that when I die the angels will come to take my soul, at the moment of death. My soul will be questioned about my faith and my deeds during my life. My soul will then be taken by the angels to the lowest level of heaven (the gates/entryway). Now comes the first worrying part, if I have been bad I will not be allowed to pass into heaven and Allah will command the angels to take my book of deeds to the 'lowest of the low' (the depths of hell). If I have been good, inshallah, I will travel through the levels of heaven, to the level I have attained, with the angels and Allah will command the angels to take my book of deeds to 'heaven'. So I will know the fate of my soul straight after I die. My soul will then be returned to earth to await the Day of Resurrection.

    Here it becomes a little necessary for guesswork - we know that our punishment for sins begins in the grave, as the bad are taken to look at hell every morning and night (sort of a 'look what's coming' visit). So there are two levels of punisment - torment in the grave and then punishment in hell. It was the torment in the grave I was wondering about - whether this punishment is self inflicted by the guilt of being made aware of our every sin.

    Islam teaches that some will be punished for a period of time and then allowed into heaven. It is a confusing topic because in the Quran Allah says some will reside in hell for eternity, yet in other places He speaks of his absolute forgiveness. There is also the question of whether the human concept of eternity is the same as G-d's concept of eternity. So I tend not to even try guessing about this one, I just trust Allah.
    We do not believe in reincarnation, as our souls will be reunited with our bodies on the Day of Resurrection. So if we have many lifetimes which body would our soul inhabit?


    I tend to refer to it as Judgement Day on CR because it is a concept everyone understands. The Arabic is actually 'Yawm al-Qiyamah' meaning 'Day of Resurrection'. So there is a difference, some make the mistake of thinking of the long line of people all waiting to be judged but that is not right imo. It is a day when G-d will resurrect every soul, who will already know their fate and on that day we will either be permitted to enter paradise or thrown into hell. The time in the grave could certainly be interpreted as a complete time of judgement.


    Could you expand on this please. Do you mean our ideas of what is good and bad will be corrected?


    But surely if we are entirely left to judge ourselves then the arrogant and evil would judge themselves to be innocent. I assume there is more to it than that?
    Good question, one I have asked myself. I think it simply comes from interfaith discussion and respect for others beliefs, as I will type Allah but not G-d.

    Salaam
     
  10. ChristianMyst

    ChristianMyst New Member

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w



    Hey, ...

    I can try and give you a tiny peek of what a trained psychic clairvoyant medium might experience, at first:

    I should think it would be considerably difficult for an untrained or inexperienced person to stumble into the Heavenly locale, (in the bottom part of what Theosophists refer to as the Mental Plane and Devachaun) and actually get something. When the brain can't relate in some way, it will either provide nothing or draw some silly analogy.

    Practicing Mediums could not traverse the Planes in the first place without a considerable imagination and intuition as well. Both are necessary and need to be well practiced for one's brain to begin giving the information the senses impressed on the Aura in close to a raw form.

    Proficiency automatically entails receiving impressions in more than sentence, or an image. Varied sounds will come across with qualities about the sound that is itself intelligent information. Images can be received from any or all angles, and the mind will need to be trained to capture things almost like "bits" in today's complicated graphics. The sizes, distances, locations, actions, colors, attributes like taste sound temperature and feeling would come along with those bits. Although we would not necessarily recognize what is initially perceived, we can start putting it together by the many attributes.

    The Mental Plane itself has limited form to reference to begin with, but of its seven kingdoms or sub-levels, those pertaining to the religions of the world, their varied heavens, have the most form. Since form is manifested, we will relate to the manifested forms of our religions. We will see people over there, for we can make out enough of the form to know you are seeing a person, but they will be floating and have no feet. They sort of blurr out. This is in reference to those more material looking levels, the Heavens of the Mental Plane. Life there has very many groupings, and within these people seem to be in their own world. In lectures I give everybody a bottle of children's soap bubbles and a bubble thingy, and tell them to blow. When the room is filled with translucent iridescent bubbles I say, those spheres are what you are going to see in heaven. (Again, the lowest parts.) People of like grades, as well as like interests will group into certain spheres. Those of a particular grade can enter other spheres of interest if those are of the proper grade. Everyone in heaven is NOT at the same level, so there is a kind of grading that limits their access to certain spheres. Spheres can relate to interests, like music or writing or beliefs.

    With practice, and again using both imagination and intuition to “allow” impressions you are not used to, you can take on perceptions that would not seem the normal presentation from a physical world sense. We have laws of science here, these are not existent in Heaven(s). For example, you could suddenly see someone’s face alone, that fills up your field of vision, … or just as well, a “light” but with so very many facets and qualities that you know exactly who it represents, what their lives were about, how the understand their circumstance and what their interests are.

    There are some characteristics, though. I already mentioned the spheres. And movement and direction is a choice. White is a significant color, but in actuality it is arrays of hues of paler but pure looking colors that seem without number. Things appear white until you dwell on something and take it in – your mind will begin “creating” a visual reference point since the colors may not exist in our spectrum. Recall too that I inferred there is a great deal of dimension to things above our realm. This is not just a visual comment. All senses have extraordinary, but still limited range. Because of these things, such a sojourn is an ongoing growing experience. Your perceptions grown and enhance with exposure to the higher realms. Shades of blue as well as purples exist in extreme quantizes as well. So, although the difference are subtle, the variation and thus meaning, is extraordinary.

    OK. I’m going to start boring you. I guess this gives some pertainent response to your question.

    Imagination is a quality expressed by those in these Higher realms too, it is not just a requirement of us the viewer. You will see all sorts of things taking place, for example, an idea that someone has of something they want to paint. There is an appreciable amount of development of talents along the genius class so you will note much about the arts, music, architecture, engineering, math, occurring in their respective spheres.

    Christian Myst
     
  11. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    ~~(^.^)~~

    Muslimwoman, I see that Christian has beaten me to the punch, but please allow me to answer specific questions.
    "...above the levels of heaven is the level(s) where Allah Himself exists."

    --> It seems that Theosophy and Islam agree on this point.
    "There is much debate about the number of levels in heaven, many say it is 7 but others talk of the levels within levels - so we don't really know the number."

    --> We need to define terms. Heaven (according to Theosophy) is a series of levels occupied by humans between incarnations. (I now know that Islam does not teach the idea of reincarnation.) As Christian has indicated, Theosophy teaches there are seven astral levels, above which there are are seven mental levels. (Theosophy teaches of a "second death", the death of the astral body, but this take us off-topic.)
    "The highest level is for the pure (Prophets (pbut), the truely righteous, etc) and that level is the nearest to the level(s) of Allah."

    --> This seems to be similar to the highest Theosophical Heaven. In Theosophy, however, the highest level of Heaven is nowhere even close to being near the Theosophical equivalent of "the level(s) of Allah." For instance, stars are considered to be Beings of consciousness, at a level much higher than human Heaven.
    "What do you believe 'is' the level(s) above heaven and hell?"
    --> The Theosophical flowchart of planes of consciousness is quite complicated. Here are some graphics I threw together a while back.

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    Please note that there are probably other levels that we are unaware of.

    "What exists there?"

    --> This question would take volumes to answer, partly because of the number of levels.
    "...I will not be allowed to pass into heaven...."

    --> Theosophy teaches the idea of reincarnation, so the Theosophical view of what happens is quite different.
    "My soul will then be returned to earth to await the Day of Resurrection."

    --> In Theosophy, the "soul" also returns, but is very busy, while your belief system seems to think the soul does nothing during this time.
    "Here it becomes a little necessary for guesswork - we know that our punishment for sins begins in the grave, as the bad are taken to look at hell every morning and night (sort of a 'look what's coming' visit)."

    --> Theosophy view the process entirely different. I guess we can just agree to disagree.
    "It was the torment in the grave I was wondering about - whether this punishment is self inflicted by the guilt of being made aware of our every sin."

    --> Such a situation as you have described does not happen (according to Theosophy). Therefore, according to Theosophy, there is no need to worry about such a thing.
    "Islam teaches that some will be punished for a period of time and then allowed into heaven."

    --> To some extent, Theosophy agrees.
    "It is a confusing topic because in the Quran Allah says some will reside in hell for eternity, yet in other places He speaks of his absolute forgiveness."

    --> Fortunately, no such confusion exists in Theosophy.
    "There is also the question of whether the human concept of eternity is the same as G-d's concept of eternity."

    --> I think we have covered this in another thread. The Abrahamic concept of eternity does not exist in Theosophy.
    "...as our souls will be reunited with our bodies on the Day of Resurrection."

    --> Theosophy does not teach such an idea.
    "So if we have many lifetimes which body would our soul inhabit?"

    --> Such a question is irrelevant in Theosophy, as human bodies are not reunited with human souls in Heaven.
    "The Arabic is actually 'Yawm al-Qiyamah' meaning 'Day of Resurrection'."

    --> The concept of Resurrection does not exist in Theosophy.
    "The time in the grave could certainly be interpreted as a complete time of judgement."

    --> I am glad to see that Islam has an inkling of the idea of multiple Judgement days.
    "Do you mean our ideas of what is good and bad will be corrected? [on Jdgement Day]"
    --> I was not clear. Many religions teach the idea that what we believe (whether we believe in Jesus, Allah, etc.) will be used as criteria to get into Heaven. (I am quite familiar with the Christian idea that refusing to accept Jesus is an automatic one-way ticket to Hell, but I do not know about Islam.) According to Theosophy, such a question is not even asked on Judgement Day. To some people this comes as a surprise, and this is what I was originally referring to.


    I would also like to touch on the Islamic idea that dying for "the cause" is an automatic one-way ticket to Heaven. (I assume I have the correct interpretation of the Islamic teaching.) Theosophy teaches that it does not happen. I have information regarding Mr. Atta, who was the leader of the Sept. 11 hijacking in America. Ya know, he really thought he was going to Heaven for what he did. He did not, he was punished for what he did. The sad thing is, he never saw it coming, and when the final decision was "announced", he was completely taken by surprise.
    "But surely if we are entirely left to judge ourselves then the arrogant and evil would judge themselves to be innocent."

    --> We judge ourselves, but it is our Higher Self which judges the lower, human self. Do not worry, no injustice occurs on Judgement Day, not one iota. (This gets us into the topic of divine forgiveness, which is an entirely different question.
    "I think it simply comes from interfaith discussion and respect for others beliefs, as I will type Allah but not G-d."
    --> I am continually amazed by things that are done in the name of religion.
     
  12. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w



    as salaam aleykum Christian

    Thank you so much for your detailed reply and don't worry it takes much more than that to bore me.

    Some questions if I may. Relationships in the afterlife are of interest to me. I assume from what you have said that you believe we connect to the people we know and love in this life? So how would that work for someone like me - my interest is obviously Islam but my family are not interested. Would I still see them in heaven or will I be limite to the people who share my sphere?

    Do you think our human emotions change in the next life? Would we still be jealous or get angry? I am thinking along the lines of a happily married couple and one spouse dies, the remaining spouse remarries and has a happy life with that new person. What happens in the afterlife, in this life we can clearly love more than one person but we also get jealous. How do you believe we would share our time in heaven?



    Do you believe the people in the next life are 'healed' (eg if they have been sick or have died at a very old age? Islam suggests that when we are resurrected we are made young and whole again.



    This is certainly in line with Islamic teaching but we believe we are 'graded' by our good deeds rather than by interests.



    Oops, I have no ability with art, music, architecture, etc - is there a 'simplicity' sphere where people are not creative or overly clever? Would that be the housework sphere? :( Oh no, an eternity of ironing (although compared to the alternative 'hot place' ....... point me at the ironing board).

    Salaam

    Sorry had to make the font bigger, my eyes are not what they used to be and I refuse to wear my glasses. :eek:
     
  13. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    ~~(^.^)~~

    Muslimwoman, allow me to "jump in" with some answers.
    "Would I still see them in heaven or will I be limite to the people who share my sphere?"

    --> I am sure no such limitations happen in Heaven.
    "What happens in the afterlife, in this life we can clearly love more than one person but we also get jealous. How do you believe we would share our time in heaven?"

    --> According to Theosophy, all negativity has been burned off before a person can enter Heaven. Such things as jealousy cannot happen in Heaven. Heaven will be heavenly.
    "Do you believe the people in the next life are 'healed' (eg if they have been sick or have died at a very old age? Islam suggests that when we are resurrected we are made young and whole again."

    --> Your use of the phrase "in the next life" is slightly confusing, because Theosophists would usually use such a phrase to refer to another human, physical reincarnation. I assume you mean time to be spent in Heaven. According to Theosophy, no such things such as illness and old age are possible in Heaven. (As I stated before, having a physical body in Heaven is impossible, according to Theosophy.)
    "...I have no ability with art, music, architecture, etc - is there a 'simplicity' sphere where people are not creative or overly clever?"
    --> Heaven will be a place where we indulge in whatever is the highest activity for us. It has been said that, for the average (non-artistic) person, Heaven will just be (1) a place of green grass, pastures, rainbows (whatever that person hoped for on Earth), (2) being surrounded by our friends and loved ones, (3) doing the things we love to do, or were unable to do on Earth. (One fellow is said to have spent his entire Heaven-time putting in the most beautuful flower garden in front of his house. Hey, if that is what Heaven is for you, go for it!
    [Varied levels in Heaven] "...is certainly in line with Islamic teaching but we believe we are 'graded' by our good deeds rather than by interests."
    --> Think of it like this. There is a kind of "specific gravity" in Heaven. Everybody has a basic level of spiritual advancement. Everyone "floats" up or down, and finds their basic level.
     
  14. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Re: ~~(^.^)~~

    Hi Nick

    Thank you for your replies, I am sorry we must have posted at the same time, as I did not see your prior post.


    What is the difference between astral and mental in Theosophy?


    The Quran speaks of the 'universes' - ie plural, so we have no idea what exists outside our own 'knowledge', so there could be a miriad of levels not even hinted at.
    Great flow chart by the way. I was surprised to see the last level referred to Jehovah, yet no level for the rest of us. Where do we all fit in?

    Gosh would hardly call going through the tourment of Judgement 'nothing' :D So what do you believe the soul does during this time?



    It may not for most Muslims, perhaps it is just me because I can't accept this 'only our gang' gets to go thing.
    Yes I am afraid Islam is very big on the 'you have to be in our gang or burn in hell' thing. There is however a minority of Muslims that read the Quran differently, not without good reason, I am in that 'gang'. ;)


    Oh no please don't think that, it is a common misconception about Islam. You mention a terrorist hijacker - no way was he ever going to heaven according to the Quran.

    The short version so I don't bore you. Islam only allows defensive war (so against an attacker or against an oppressor/tyrant) fullstop, that is it, no if's or but's. You can only fight those fighting you, so is it forbidden to kill any civilian. Jihad can only be declared by the Islamic State - we don't have a single Islamic State so Jihad cannot be called these days, there is no Caiphate to call it. So those that would attain the highest level would be those that die defending the Muslim nation, in a valid defensive war and had only killed attackers. Islam does not even allow us to hurt a tree during a battle (honestly it is in the teachings). I can show you so many Islamic scholars that would confirm that. Those that teach suicide attacks are doing so for political reasons and will have to answer for their corrupt teachings when the time comes. Those that commit these awful crimes will have to answer for their actions, even if they have been taught the wrong thing they will be questioned about where in the Quran such a thing is allowed and obviously it is not so they are going to have trouble answering. Islam even teaches that prisoners of war must be well looked after, in the time of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) he would allow prisoners to go free if they would teach 10 Muslims to read and write.

    This we agree on.
    I am constantly saddened by it and believe that Allah will be too.



    Islam teaches the same thing.

    Can I put my name down for the gardening gang please, next to a mosque would be nice. Wow I could grow thousands of fuschia's and have a vegetable patch - yep that would be heaven for me. Doesn't take much to keep me happy. :D

    Very interesting to learn about your beliefs, thanks for taking the time.

    Salaam
     
  15. ChristianMyst

    ChristianMyst New Member

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

    MuslimWomen. Warm welcome.

    You are too kind to indulge us with such meaningful and intelligent questions.

    I am pleased that there are ample answers which speak to both the particular mediumistic observations of the Heavenly realms, and those of Theosophy:

    Although much of what is believed in other religions is manifest in Heaven, at least at the lower regions of it, I find that the Theosophical philosophies more precisely validate that which I have experienced.

    Such would be particularly true in the structures of both the Astral and the Mental Planes’ respective seven(7) sublevels, and the processes that occur, which are as well observable.

    It may be for this reason partially that Theosophy has no agenda to sway one away from their formal Religion in favor of our philosophical science/religion/philosophy solely. Theosophy encompasses very much of the fundamental elements of formalize religions, but not all, of course, and more specifically the earliest religious concepts before time, politics, ego, control and other factors were allowed some very real influence on Religious doctrine.

    Therefore, Theosophy sees the fundamental or founding beliefs of many, if not all religions, to be a subset of its broader spiritual perspective. This is not meant to mean Theosophy is better, something rather subjective, but rather, that it encompasses a more complete and original concept (in our opinion) of the Absolute (G-od, Allah, et’al), the Universe(s), Creation, Consciousness, Angels/Archangels/Devas by their many names, Nature Spirits and other spiritual and elemental forms, the development of plants, insects, birds and animals, Spirits and their Bodies as well as the Soul and the bodies for Ego and mind, Human Life, Death Reincarnation and Karma, and those multitude of Higher Consciousness beyond the physical world’s perceptions of Mankind to include planetary spirits, and hierarchies beyond the physical and visible Universe; to include that which is not even manifest.

    NOTE: I will defer to Nick for his more authoritative answers should I be remiss or in error as would pertain the above. I am a slow learner.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ChristianMyst
    The Mental Plane itself has limited form to reference to begin with, but of its seven kingdoms or sub-levels, those pertaining to the religions of the world, their varied heavens, have the most form. Since form is manifested, we will relate to the manifested forms of our religions.




    as salaam aleykum Christian

    Thank you so much for your detailed reply and don't worry it takes much more than that to bore me.

    Some questions if I may. Relationships in the afterlife are of interest to me. I assume from what you have said that you believe we connect to the people we know and love in this life? So how would that work for someone like me - my interest is obviously Islam but my family are not interested. Would I still see them in heaven or will I be limite to the people who share my sphere?



    I don’t see where I said that, but nonetheless, that would be my belief, observation and experience. We DO continue relationships in the afterlife, and reconnect with those from prior lives as well. Afterlife in Theosophy, however, would not be limited to the Heavenly realms of Devachaun nor the remainder of the Mental Plane, however. There is a vast Astral Plane, something that may have its counterpart in the purgatory of the Christian faith; although, Theosophy has a far more elaborate view of its existence, purpose and range. As well, there are numerous other full Planes even above the Mental, although those areas that pertain to humankind of physical form where reincarnation is a necessity as a reflection on one’s karmic debt, would draw from the Astral and the Mental.



    Religion is not an actual factor in the Astral or the Mental, except where we chose it to be. Once in the upper portions of Devachaun or Heaven, it would cease to have practical meaning as we would begin loosing a reference to the body. Our memories are particularly limited at this stage, and it is the quality and accomplishments of our past that we dwell upon. But from that stage down to the lower astral levels where we pass into, relationships will matter.



    Those on the other-side have a considerably wider perspective on spirituality as they live in realms where words are not needed for the truth within us is openly available through means that we would consider psychic down here. We understand that we have lived many lives and have had many relationships. MANY of those are by choice; that is to say, we may choose to have a relationship in the next life as their brother, where recently we were their mother. This will be to accomplish some growing objective – the learning of “lessons.” It seems that a very large number of people we know in our physical life times we have had prior relationships or encounters with at some time. As soul families, we can demonstrate our love by contributing to each others future development by anticipating roles we will play. This is more a psychic/mediumistic view and less of a Theosophical one.


    Our families on the other side are usually happy to see us, and may even meet and greet us upon our arrival; this to ensure minimal confusion, and to aid us in adjusting. Fear is always a tendency for those who were most material in their physical life, so they may require this care, and even special manifestations for their adjustment. We do not necessarily arrive fully awake either. This awaking can take a long time, as well the adjustment. Or, if the person has some enlightenment about life on other realms, the transition can be swift.



    As those crossed over have the greater perspective, and kind of “know” where things are going spiritually, it is rather understood that our religious beliefs had some foundation in our parentage or upbringing, or circumstances. The otherside is not slanted to any one religion, but rather exists and functions according to a set of rules or processes that Theosophy, Buddhism and Hinduism to name a few understand rather well. The “quality” of us relegates us to certain realms. We do continue to perfect ourselves, and this results in higher realms (figurative) becoming our contemporary home. We learn we have little need for the physical organs we once had, and begin to take control of our form and use our higher abilities (again, similar to what would be considered psychic, clairvoyance, thought transference etc, down on Earth.) The sojourn through the Astral Plane can exceed life on the physical Plane by many multiples. So, we have much time to learn and adjust, and free ourselves of desires and adverse qualities that have no meaning to Heaven. Indeed, we must successfully divest ourselves of our entire base nature before we die once again in the Astral, and finally begin our entry into the Heavenly realms.



    Now, there too we can meet our friends, families and those with whom we had relationships. Our interest is no longer in those unions per se, but the celebration of our eternal relationships with one another. We have accumulated perhaps countless relationships of this sort over time, and ALL of us would know that the meaning of such things on the Earthly world are extremely limited, and minimal in meaning. There is no great time or distance barrier in Heaven, and the quality of each other, “our light” is of greater interest. Indeed, therein we continue to focus on that perfection. As a result, we contribute to the plan for our reincarnation.



    I should finish this vein by saying that “love” would have an immensely greater meaning in those higher realms, and that love would transcend time. Even if we detest someone now in this earthly realm, we may vary well love them dearly in Heaven as the entirety of our past together is the “place” we are at.
     
  16. ChristianMyst

    ChristianMyst New Member

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

    Do you think our human emotions change in the next life? Would we still be jealous or get angry? I am thinking along the lines of a happily married couple and one spouse dies, the remaining spouse remarries and has a happy life with that new person. What happens in the afterlife, in this life we can clearly love more than one person but we also get jealous. How do you believe we would share our time in heaven?



    We may have some human emotions on the Astral, but these will have to be discarded in time, except for genuine affection; something that may relate to a very few. Desires in general are discarded. As is any material attachment. These cannot be carried into Heaven. Our appreciation for each other’s “spirit” is what we seek, not our bodies and experiences. We develop genuine and actual compassion, something that is only a nuance here on Earth. To answer your question, there will not be concern if a living spouse remarries. In fact, it is their happiness one on the other will soon be most concerned with, not something that no longer exists in the physical. You may need to be aware that we all do have a connection in these other Planes even now, while we are in the physical. We can and do visit at night when our physical bodies sleep. Some of us sleep as well on the other side, but many who are enlightened somewhat continue relationships with those we once knew. In time, though, these relations “grow,” and they may not be what we call marriage, or parenting any longer.




    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ChristianMyst
    We will see people over there, for we can make out enough of the form to know you are seeing a person, but they will be floating and have no feet. They sort of blurr out.




    Do you believe the people in the next life are 'healed' (eg if they have been sick or have died at a very old age? Islam suggests that when we are resurrected we are made young and whole again.




    Of course. We no longer have a physical body. We are in our Astral Body (something that can be seen in the physical world with a little training.) It is not material, and therefore has not the breakdown and illness that we know on Earth. It is still of “matter” to some degree, but of a matter finer than we could know on Earth. It is not subject to the breakdowns we call illness or age.



    We give up that Astral body in time, as well, however. But, not due to illness. Because we no longer belong in the Astral Plane. We die there and then enter Heaven through a process I won’t go into here. Form is quite minimal at first, and later on, of no meaning. We appear more as light once we are really settled in to Heaven. Now, everyone doesn’t accomplish this all at once. Sometimes it takes quite a number of further cycles of reincarnation; with each, we stay longer in Heaven and in better condition. Somewhere along the line we no longer need to reincarnate at all. At that time we rise above Heaven, but are still in the Mental Plane.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ChristianMyst
    Everyone in heaven is NOT at the same level, so there is a kind of grading that limits their access to certain spheres. Spheres can relate to interests, like music or writing or beliefs.




    This is certainly in line with Islamic teaching but we believe we are 'graded' by our good deeds rather than by interests.




    The grading is according to our “light.” This is the quality of or consciousness. It may very well be a result of our good deeds. It has nothing to do with our interests, I was just being descriptive.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ChristianMyst
    There is an appreciable amount of development of talents along the genius class so you will note much about the arts, music, architecture, engineering, math, occurring in their respective spheres.



    Oops, I have no ability with art, music, architecture, etc - is there a 'simplicity' sphere where people are not creative or overly clever? Would that be the housework sphere? Oh no, an eternity of ironing (although compared to the alternative 'hot place' ....... point me at the ironing board).


    There is a Nursery School in Heaven. It is on the lower floor, down a very long corridor, and along the back wall. There a number of candy strippers will help you with building blocks, and crayons, water colors, and eventually oils. Singing lessons start right after lunch time. Those that struggle will have to take a turn at the housework sphere, and there are millions and millions of sheets to iron. JUST KIDDING. It’s what you WANT to do. As well, it pertains to what you have innate in you from ALL of your thousands or more lifetimes. Trust me, you do have talents and interests. Many of those accomplished writers and artists of the last many centuries are already there. You may get to meet them.



    Those who are in Heaven can share their insights, skills, talents with those here on earth, usually children and grandchildren, but as well, other people who demonstrate a similar interest. This comes down as psychic “insight” to those qualified. Unfortunately, here on Earth there usually needs to be a “reaching up” to make this kind of connection. Otherwise, it is a slow process of “influence.” This latter is more of the psychic/mediumship perspective, as not all Theosophists are aware of this process.



    Salaam

    Sorry had to make the font bigger, my eyes are not what they used to be and I refuse to wear my glasses.


    You won’t need glasses on the other side.
     
  17. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

    Sorry Nick I don't want to hijack the thread but just wanted to add something about the suicide bombings. Most of the scholars that have called for these attacks are speaking about Palestine, they believe that Israel are oppressors and occupiers of Muslim lands so it is therfore a legitimate war (I have some sympathy with this view but cannot agree on kiling civilians). However, that doesn't get around the prohibition of killing civilians. I am afraid when it comes to Palestine anger seems to take over reason and religious teaching, as the Quran forbids suicide it is a major sin:

    There have been conflicting reports about the stand of Sheikh Muhammad Tantawy, the top Egyptian cleric of Al Azhar University, and the mufti of Egypt. Shortly after 9/11 the Sheikh Tantawy issued a statement apposing suicide attacks. But a translation from Al Azhar website quotes him as supporting suicide attacks on Jews in Israel as part of the Palestinian struggle "to strike horror into the hearts of the enemies of Islam." Then in mid-2003 he was quoted again as saying "groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam."

    For example, Sayed Mohammed Musawi, head of the World Islamic League in London, insisted "there should be a clear distinction between the suicide bombing of those who are trying to defend themselves from occupiers, which is something different from those who kill civilians, which is a big crime."

    Quite how this man can correctly say killing civilians is a big crime and then agree with it when it comes to Palestine is beyond me. I think it proves my point - insanity and politics.
     
  18. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    ~~(^.^)~~

    Muslimwoman, you asked,
    "What is the difference between astral and mental in Theosophy?"
    --> According to Theosophy, there are different Planes of Existence. At night, while we are asleep, we leave our physical body behind, and travel around in our astral body. When we come back, we remember these travels as dreams.

    We have an astral body, and we also have something called a mental body. The Mental Plane is above the Astral Plane. The mental body operates at a higher frequency than the astral body, and is a higher form of existence.
    "The Quran speaks of the 'universes' - ie plural, so we have no idea what exists outside our own 'knowledge', so there could be a miriad of levels not even hinted at."
    --> The ideas of multiple universes and miriads of unknown levels are fundamental Theosophical concepts.
    "Great flow chart by the way. I was surprised to see the last level referred to Jehovah, yet no level for the rest of us. Where do we all fit in?"
    --> Jehovah was thrown in as just one example. According to Theosophy, Jehovah is the patron saint of Israel (which explains the statement that they are his "chosen people" — they are, because he is their patron saint.) Each national group has its own patron saint. Therefore, we all "fit in".
    "In Theosophy, the "soul" also returns, but is very busy, while your belief system seems to think the soul does nothing during this time. --> Gosh would hardly call going through the tourment of Judgement 'nothing' So what do you believe the soul does during this time?"
    --> I was referring to the time spent waiting for the final Judgement Day, not the time spent actually going through it. The way I see it, we reincarnate during this time. You had said your belief system only has us waiting in our graves and doing nothing during this time.
    "It may not for most Muslims, perhaps it is just me because I can't accept this 'only our gang' gets to go thing."
    --> I am glad to see you are willing to question your belief system. I do not, and will not allow any inconsistencies in my belief system. (Fortunately, Theosophy has yet to throw an inconsistency at me.)
    "Yes I am afraid Islam is very big on the 'you have to be in our gang or burn in hell' thing. There is however a minority of Muslims that read the Quran differently, not without good reason, I am in that 'gang'."
    --> Good for you. Are you trying to instigate some kind of revolution in Islamic thinking?
    "Oh no please don't think that, it is a common misconception about Islam. You mention a terrorist hijacker - no way was he ever going to heaven according to the Quran."
    --> I am glad to hear that. However, it does not change the fact that he thought he was going to Heaven, and was surprised when he didn't make it. If we can advertise such an idea (and stop at least one trip to Hell for one terrorist), we are making progress.
    "I am constantly saddened by it and believe that Allah will be too."
    --> Now we are getting into one of our differences. I could never believe in an Almighty God that is moved by emotion.
    "However, that doesn't get around the prohibition of killing civilians."
    --> If we could only teach them the idea of making bad karma (and needing to burn it off later), it would be a big improvement.
    "I think it proves my point - insanity and politics."
    --> Insanity for which they will be held accountable, down to the last jot. Karma never forgets.
     
  19. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w



    Salaam Christian

    Thank you for your replies, makes interesting reading.

    The Quran states very clearly 'there shall be no compulsion in religion'. It is such a shame that this has been turned into 'you have to convert everyone you meet'.



    I like the sound of Theosophy, it seems to encompass everything and accept everyone without exception. I am not sure I could cope without my belief in a personal relationship with Allah or of course in His Divine Being but that is just me.



    Sorry I am not quite understanding you (sometimes you have to give me the blonde version :eek: ). So do you believe in a 'higher power' as the creator and angels? I have heard of the idea that everything is interconnected and we are each a small part of the 'energy' that is everything but that it is not controlled, it just is. Is Theosophy along those lines?



    That would be a great relief to me. I tend to go against the generally held view of my faith when it comes to this issue. The Quran tells us that had Allah wanted to He could have made us all one nation but He did not and when we die He will tell us the difference between us. I simply do not accept that it means He would say 'ok you lot are right and everyone else is wrong and going to hell'.



    Inshallah. The hatred in this world just astounds me at times.

    Salaam
     
  20. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w



    Oh there are so many historical figures I would love to meet. I have my name down for the gardening club, I just want a peaceful quiet afterlife. I would also love to learn to paint, maybe someone will teach me?!


    Oh good. I assume I won't ever need to diet either :p

    Salaam
     

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