Do we (Muslims, Christians and Jews) believe in the same God or not?

I am in the process of re-doing my website where all will be revealed. I've had to do this because I installed an Arabic language translation software program and it acted like a virus and royally screwed up my computer. Even after three hours on the phone with the software tech we couldn't uninstall the program. I finally ended up getting a new (used e-Bay job for 122.50 plus shipping) and had to reinstall my website that has a zillion pages each with internal hyperlinks all having to be reinstalled too.

I should be done within a week and will of course let you all come see the Impossible Apostle at work. That is if I'm still here and not kicked out of CR by Brian for proselytizing.

Re Apostles vs. Prophets. Don't know how to answer that one either as I consider myself as "one sent" but also one bearing prophesies. Either way I'm in hot water with trads..;)
 
Saltmeister said:
The Catholic use of the word "saint" (correct me if I'm wrong) might refer to a person who has served as part of the clergy. The more abstract meaning of "saint," however, is one of God's people. So you and I are saints (so far as we believe). Prophets and apostles as we know them are regarded as such by tradition, yet the exact definition of what makes them prophets and apostles has never been given. There are theories, but these theories are debatable as they impose limits on the meaning of the words "prophet" and "apostle."


I know the purpose of tradition -- it's to stop us from thinking too much, not to imprison or enslave us (but yet that is often what tradition has done to people:eek:).

What I was interested in, however, was paganprophet's perspective on prophethood and apostlehood. What was his/her "reality?" I wasn't asking for a "beliefs for others" perspective, but a "beliefs for me" perspective.

That kind of prompted me to explore the CR site a bit further . . . these views might be discussed on some other forum. I usually look for threads/forums that are relevant to me, and as a result haven't explored the kinds of views paganprophet might have explored.



I think Quahom speaking might be a signal for us to switch to another channel. You've been paged/PMed.
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lol, a saint is:

1. somebody honored by church after death: a member of a religion who after death is formally designated as having led a life of exceptional holiness

2. somebody in heaven: somebody who goes to heaven after death

3. virtuous person: a particularly good or holy person, or one who is exceptionally kind and patient in dealing with difficult people or situations

Guess that means moderators...

but we do not stop you from thinking or expressing self. We simply watch out for you, that no one else will attempt to corral your thoughts, by playing god...

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
lol, a saint is:

1. somebody honored by church after death: a member of a religion who after death is formally designated as having led a life of exceptional holiness

2. somebody in heaven: somebody who goes to heaven after death

3. virtuous person: a particularly good or holy person, or one who is exceptionally kind and patient in dealing with difficult people or situations

Guess that means moderators...

but we do not stop you from thinking or expressing self. We simply watch out for you, that no one else will attempt to corral your thoughts, by playing god...

v/r

Q
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Do you have to have all three qualities to be a saint (dead, in heaven, and virtuous)?
 
Dondi said:
Do you have to have all three qualities to be a saint (dead, in heaven, and virtuous)?
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1. Disagree . . . what if a person is recognised by God but not by Man? Is that person still a saint?:eek:

2. Agree!!!!

3. Agree!!!! (up to a certain extent): could there be lesser saints like us who don't always do what we should . . . but make an effort to do it?

One more thing . . . couldn't we be "saints" while we're still alive? ie. lesser/partial saints, partially reborn?
 
Not Baha'i. It's founder fell for the same Abrahamic myths as real history as did all the rest of the Abrahamic prophets.

Also, any religious founder who does the old Egyptian curse thing of cursing anyone adding to his vision is highly suspect of egotistical shortsightedness to say the least.

And then there's the racism of Baha'i founders showing their inability to recognize human beings when they are black Africans.

Baha'i is one of the Abrahamic faiths headed for its End Times.

Sorry.
 
Mmmm... Methinks the discussion here is heading of to a far country far away from the original thread!

To bring it back a little, in my other posts to this thread I've argued that we Abrahamic fiath people do believe in the same God.

I think we probably all have the same basic view of prophecy too.

A prophet is basically a spokesperson for God. God cn give them any message to pass on.

The classic paradigm is probably Isaiah, who I believe all of the Abrahamic faiths would agree is a prophet.

Isaiah brought messages of God's comfort, God's judgement, and God's desire for justice. Isaiah spoke about what God thought about what was happening now, as well as what might happen in the future.

The test of a prophet is time. If the message is still relevant centuries into the future and has a lasting life and impact then they are or were a prophet.

I'm not sure I agree with Saltmeister's view of prophecy being in the past, for Christians at least. Paul letters and Acts speak in a number of places about prophecy, the gift of prophecy and of Prophets.

It is true that such prophets and prphecy may not make it to the Scriptures but there is still a place for God to call men and women to speak prophetically to the church and to broader society. In this sense some people regard Martin Luther King as a prophet for instance.

Finally Paganprophet, perhaps you should find some encouragement in the fact that most of the prophets in the Bible got a hard time from their contemporaries. So there is some chance you're a prophet. The message that God gives is not usually an entirely comfotable one!!!

Blessings
 
Thanks, OzAndy. If modern prophets were to be judged by their ability to offend religious discussion forum owners and members, I think I highly qualify!
;)

It's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it. Somebody's got to come along from God in times where the religious traditions are so corrupted as to produce religious wars killing thousands, making millions more miserable to again, "make straight the Path of God in the bewilderness."

Oh, if I could only tell you all what's at stake now. Only the whole Abrahamic religious traditions, all of them.

Soon I will have my website redone again and all will be revealed.

:eek::eek::eek:
 
OzAndy said:
I'm not sure I agree with Saltmeister's view of prophecy being in the past, for Christians at least. Paul letters and Acts speak in a number of places about prophecy, the gift of prophecy and of Prophets.
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I think I might have been misunderstood. I was saying that prophets and apostles could essentially be the same thing, in mind and attitude. The only difference being displacement in time. Prophets came before the Messiah, apostles after the Messiah.

I usually hear Muslims calling Mohammed the Prophet, but occasionally they also call him Apostle.

The meaning of "prophet" and "apostle" is largely subjective, but I reckon from a theological point of view, they are the same kind of person. They have sought God, found Him, and thereafter have spoken about Him.

An apostle might indeed have prophecies to tell, and today's world may indeed be full of prophets and apostles, but not self-proclaiming ones. They probably don't call themselves prophets or apostles and don't even know they qualify to being one. The prophets and apostles in the past may simply just have been "ordinary" people who simply happened to find God. We have simply venerated them as heroes.

We criticise the people who "worshipped" the saints, yet is not our Bible a "worship" of past saints? Heroes of the ancients?
 
Saltmeister said:
The meaning of "prophet" and "apostle" is largely subjective, but I reckon from a theological point of view, they are the same kind of person. They have sought God, found Him, and thereafter have spoken about Him
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Mostly agree with your post! The prophets were largely not self proclaimed and could often fall into other categories as well. At least some may have been of humble origins... Amos for instance describes himself as an agricultural worker.

However I think you have the emphasis upside down. Most of the Biblical prophets were found by God and did not seek God. Moses, Jeremiah and most famously, Jonah, all tried to get out of God's call.

If there is a radical difference in Christianity's understanding of God, it is that we believe God primarily seeks us. We do not primarily seek God. At the heart of Christianity is a belief that God definitively sought us out by becoming one of us as the man Jesus Christ. God seeks us, reaches down to us and not primarily the other way around.

I think in at least one of my previous posts to this thread I asked if I was right in believing that this is a different understanding to that of the other Abrahamic faiths but the question was never answered. That is, do Jewish and Islamic folk believe that God expects us to find God, or do they believe that God finds us? Or to put it in theological speak: Is God primarily the God of righteouness in heaven or the God of grace who condescends* to us?

*'condescends' is a technical theological term - it means "comes down to" and "accomodates self to" not "patronises" or "makes fun of".

Saltmeister said:
is not our Bible a "worship" of past saints? Heroes of the ancients?
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Since the prophets and the saints and heroes of the Bible, either by intention or default primarily point not to themselves but to God who spoke to or empowered them, I would say no. We worship the God who raised up the heroes and saints and prophets. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this would be true for all the Abrahamic faiths. We worship God and not the saints and heroes.
 
God is personified in books in order that we might find affinity
with God through our humanness... but God is not a person or
some sort of great, looming authoritarian entity... does not have a gender.

All the concepts we use to describe God... Love and Truth
...Peace... Mercy....Wrath

these are universal concepts and no religion has claim to them.
They are embodied in a collective concept which we call God.

And God is God.

No matter what you call God.
 
Amica said:
Peace to all.

There is no church out there that does not allow prayers towards a statue representative of Jesus. Christian Orthodox and Catholics, for instance, go even further and worship the statues of the Virgin, pray at the icons, collect skeleton relics that are believed to have healing powers, etc. This contradicts Judaism and the whole concept of Christianity's claim that Jesus' message (NT) fullfilled the OT (Jesus said that he came not to change the laws of OT but to fullfill them).

The polytheism did not rest on Christianity alone. I think Islam has been under its attack for some while too with the rise of various sects. However, majority of Muslims out there still worship Allah/God as Qur'an teaches.
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Orthodox Christians and Catholics DO NOT worship statues. We (Orthodox) do use icons to focus our prayer towards God, we show respect to what they (icons) represent, but we do not " worship " them. This is a common misinterpretation. Worship is due to God and God alone.

The relics of saints are holy things because the saints were holy.

No Christian worships statues, that is so far from the truth that I have no idea where you are getting it.

And " No Graven Image " was before God became flesh. You can see the Son, you can paint him. You could NOT see God before this, so naturally, you cannot paint a rendering of him can you.
 
And, on the issue of prayers to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels.

When you pray to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels, you are simply asking them to pray to God on your behalf, sort of like putting in a good word for you. The prayers of the righteous are very important in Orthodox Christianity in that they may be "heard" so to speak more quickly.

To further explain, usually Christians say to one another in a time of strife " pray for me " it is the same with the angels and the saints and the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary), we are simply saying " pray for me", not " I'm worshipping you, here are my pleas ".
 
Hello All, and welcome to CR Madeinrussia.

There was an impotant meeting of learned scholars this past week in Los Angeles. The purpose of the meeting was to confront problematic passages in the sacred texts of the Abrahamic Religions and to continue a process of reconciliation and learning among the three faiths, something long overdue IMHO. As you will see in the accompanying article, this is a mult- year effort and an ongoing project which includes some very prominent scholars and educators. I see it as a ray of light and hope for a better future for us all.

flow....:)

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-beliefs20oct20,1,7222791.story?coll=la-headlines-california
 
madeinrussia89 said:
Christians say to one another in a time of strife " pray for me " it is the same with the angels and the saints and the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary), we are simply saying " pray for me", not " I'm worshipping you, here are my pleas ".
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Praying for someone and praying through someone are two different things. man should not pray through any created being as saints or angels or creatures (all fellow servants). Prayer, as well as worship, is to God alone thru the Spirit.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
Praying for someone and praying through someone are two different things. man should not pray through any created being as saints or angels or creatures (all fellow servants). Prayer, as well as worship, is to God alone thru the Spirit.
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I'm well aware of that. We aren't praying " through " anything. Point blank.
 
madeinrussia89 said:
I'm well aware of that. We aren't praying " through " anything. Point blank.
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I believe Praying to as well. Prayer through or to anything is a form of worship, and that is for God alone. I'm curious, why would you think otherwise?
 
madeinrussia89 said:
Because asking someone or something to pray for you isn't worshipping him/her/it.
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in all fairness, you didnt say "asking someone or something", you said "When you pray to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels". asking and praying are not even the same, just to be clear. somehow i think you believe asking and praying to god and created beings are the same and interchangeable words maybe, but i think they are not, and i find that very interesting. created beings are servants just like us, and as followers of God we are not to bow, pray to, or worship anything other than God.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
in all fairness, you didnt say "asking someone or something", you said "When you pray to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels". asking and praying are not even the same, just to be clear. somehow i think you believe asking and praying to god and created beings are the same and interchangeable words maybe, but i think they are not, and i find that very interesting. created beings are servants just like us, and as followers of God we are not to bow, pray to, or worship anything other than God.
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Isn't this just a difference between Catholic and Protestant approaches? I assume that many Christians of a Catholic persuasion will pray to Mother Mary, or great Saints to ask for their blessings or help in serving God. As long as you did not mistake these persons as being God, then where would be the problem in praying to them?

... Neemai :)
 
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