Bible Study: Isaiah 11

[juantoo3]

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Isaiah 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Isaiah 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

Isaiah 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

 

[juantoo3]

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

As is being discussed elsewhere, in order for Jesus to qualify as "a rod out of the stem of Jesse" he would have to be a blood descendent of the line of Hebrew kings. This is problematic on a number of levels, not least that if G-d is the sire of Jesus, then there is no blood descent from King David through Jesse as this prophecy foretells.

Another matter to be considered, is that the Kings of Judah ended in the time of Nebuchadnezzer. This is around the time that Daniel and his buddies were carried away captive into Babylon. I forget the name of the last king off the top of my head, but his sons were put to death in front of his eyes, and then his eyes were gouged out and he lived the remainder of his life a blind captive in the court of Nebuchadnezzer.

That's not to say there may not have been others who were related to the line of kings in some manner; cousins or what-have-you. Likely there were. There are even rumors that the prophet Jeremiah carried at least two of the king's daughters away alive into exile; one marrying into a royal house in Iberia (Spain) and the other marrying into a royal house in Ireland (the House of Tara), or so the legend goes. Which sets up some interesting mutual antagonisms down the road when one considers the early histories of Ireland and Spain.

Otherwise, this part of the prophecy sounds remarkably like the mission or ministry of Jesus as written in the Gospels. The 4th verse even echoes sentiments expressed in the Sermon on the Mount.

 

[Dondi]

There's an explanation concerning the kingly lineage of Christ found here:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The Lineage of Christ: [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Lesson 2: New Testament Fulfillment[/FONT]​

 

[BlaznFattyz]

we have another thread like this somewhere.. and a recent one as well. in the older post i believe there is similar explanations that show one lineage being mary's who was counted under joseph, which is the biological line to david, and the other lineage being joseph's who adopted jesus as his son. if you can find it maybe you could merge them.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Juan,

I'll have to look at the surrounding material to get into the context, but, do you think the text you quoted from chapter 11 has the feel of establishing anything literal? What exactly is this root of Jesse? The text doesn't say it's a literal descendant. He may come in the name of David, so to speak. He re-establishes a contiguous territory upon the boundaries of the legendary united monarchy, and inaugurates the Peaceable Kingdom. To me this doesn't sound like a strictly biographical prescription for a literal king or literal lineage. It's got a more epic, metaphysical, prophetic in the big literary sense, feel to it.

Chris

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Thank you for indulging me.

There's an explanation concerning the kingly lineage of Christ found here:

This seems to be a pretty good link, Dondi.

To show that Jesus fulfilled both requirements of prophecy concerning the lineage of Christ, Matthew gives Jesus' place in the royal succession, and Luke gives His physical ancestry (7). Jesus' only parent was Mary, since He was miraculously conceived in His mother when she was still a virgin betrothed to Joseph. Joseph was His legal father only (Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38). Therefore, the genealogy in Luke traces His ancestry through Mary's side of the family.

Our interpretation of Matthew's genealogy—that it presents the royal succession culminating in Jesus—squares with two important considerations.

His genealogy follows the line of actual Jewish kings.
The Gospel of Matthew is distinctively the Gospel of the Kingdom. In reporting Jesus' ministry, he emphasizes Jesus' intention to set up a kingdom in fulfillment of Jewish hopes (Matt. 4:17; 5:17-19 et al.). He presents the Transfiguration as Jesus "coming in his kingdom" (Matt. 16:28). His purpose throughout is to spotlight Jesus in His kingly role. Therefore, the genealogy he provides shows Jesus as the king.
Matthew links names in his genealogy with the term "begat." This seems to exclude any shifts in the blood line, such as we would expect in a line of kings. But the Greek term is gennao, whose meaning is not limited to biological conception (8). It can mean "bring forth" or "produce" (9).

Our interpretation of Luke's genealogy—that it presents Jesus' blood line through Mary—has three important considerations in its favor.

Luke elsewhere intimates that Mary herself was of Davidic descent. In the genealogy, he speaks of Joseph as Jesus' "supposed," or "nominal," father (Luke 3:23). But in his account of the angel's announcement to Mary that she had conceived a child without the aid of a man, Luke remembers the angel saying, "The Lord God shall give unto him [Jesus] the throne of his father David" (Luke 1:32). The implication is that whereas Joseph was His supposed father, David was His real father—that is, His real grandfather on His mother's side.
Some have argued that Luke gives Joseph's genealogy to illustrate the claim, twice stated, that Joseph belonged to the house of David (Luke 1:27; 2:4). But the genealogy Luke provides is elaborate and lengthy. All the detail seems pointless if it is the genealogy of a man who was merely Jesus' supposed father.
Luke carries the ancestry of Christ far beyond David all the way to Adam, father of the human race (Luke 3:38). Evidently, he wishes to show that Jesus was the fulfillment of God's promise to Adam and Eve in the Protevangelium—the promise that their posterity would produce a conqueror of Satan. Luke's genealogy succeeds in identifying Jesus as an offspring of Adam and Eve only if it gives His biological descent. In other words, the genealogy must be the blood line of Mary.

Soooo....

Matthew 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; {this is generally regarded as the Jesse of the Isaiah prophecy}

Matthew 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Matthew 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;

Matthew 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;

Matthew 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;

Matthew 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;

Matthew 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Matthew 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

Matthew 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;

Matthew 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;

Matthew 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;

Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Matthew 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

The geneology of Joseph, and...

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luke 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,

Luke 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,

Luke 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,

Luke 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,

Luke 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,

Luke 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,

Luke 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,

Luke 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,

Luke 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,

Now, I'm not even gonna try to say anything is amiss or mistaken. I do know that Luke early on spends a great deal of time and effort establishing the fact that Mary, of whom this second geneology supposedly belongs, is in fact descended of the House of Levi and the Priesthood. Elisabeth, the mother of John baptist, was married to a Priest. The Jewish Levitical Priesthood did not marry just anybody, Elisabeth who was Mary's first cousin was of the tribe of Levi, *not* Judah (the tribe of the king), which strongly implies Mary (actually Miriam, for mee's benefit) was also of the tribe of Levi. So I do not know what to make of this dual geneology, but I suspect a great deal depends on whether one's *official* geneology stems from the mother's side or the father's side. I would think a reasonable expectation is that the legally recorded geneology would be that of Joseph. But Judaism even then was a bit more liberal with matriarchal geneology, so there is a possibility that Miriam's heritage may have been *officially* considered as well.

Either way, it is incumbent that a "rod growing out of the root of" expressly implies blood descent, not adoption.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Juan,

I'll have to look at the surrounding material to get into the context, but, do you think the text you quoted from chapter 11 has the feel of establishing anything literal?

I'm a bit pressed for time, but the short answer is "yes." There are a handful of pivotal points upon which Christianity stands or falls...this is one of them. I am certainly *not* trying to discount or undermine Christianity, what I *am* trying to do is build a perspective.

Even if one could somehow "prove" Jesus was only human, that does not negate the overwhelming positive value of his earthly ministry nor does it take away from the influence of the Divine. It simply turns Jesus into the most influential Rabbi to walk the earth to this time, a man with a direct connection that we would all do well to seek.

 

[juantoo3]

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Now, by all means if there is more to say regarding any other segment of this prophecy, please continue to add your insights. For now I want to continue so that this passage is divided up into components to make it easier to digest and compare.

This here I think is the most beautiful and compelling promise in all of Christianity and Judaism. In all of the times I have come to a crisis of faith, it is this promise alone that has driven me to cling to my Christian roots. Yes, we are told in the book of Revelations of the time of Jacob's troubles and how bleak everything will be for that period of time...and almost every Christian I know thinks they will fly away into the clouds or something to escape that period of time and trouble.

But those that fly away will miss out in this most beautiful promise. It is this promise that drives me to pray not to escape, but to persevere in the face of all obstacles. I pray instead for strength and courage and wisdom. I want to see this time of Isaiah's promise with my own eyes, in the flesh.

 

[juantoo3]

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Earlier was the rod out of the stem (even though I goofed it up in one of my last posts) of Jesse, here we have the root of Jesse. Does this infer the same offspring: do both of the verses suggest Jesus? Seems I recall Jesus even teaching at one point that he would be lifted up for the people to see and be drawn near to, like an ensign (another name for a flag), foretelling his crucifixion. It is interesting that through Jesus the Gentiles are drawn to the chosen path of the Jews by way of the religion called Christianity. "His rest shall be glorious,"...I suppose this can be taken a few different ways, but all in all I think this is trying to say that the path Jesus sets before (or opens up before) the Gentiles provides a means of being counted among the chosen.

Or something like that...

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

I'm a bit pressed for time, but the short answer is "yes." There are a handful of pivotal points upon which Christianity stands or falls...this is one of them. I am certainly *not* trying to discount or undermine Christianity, what I *am* trying to do is build a perspective.

Even if one could somehow "prove" Jesus was only human, that does not negate the overwhelming positive value of his earthly ministry nor does it take away from the influence of the Divine. It simply turns Jesus into the most influential Rabbi to walk the earth to this time, a man with a direct connection that we would all do well to seek.

I went back a couple of chapters in Isaiah to find the beginning of the piece. It would seem that this is a prophecy concerning the fall of the Assyrian empire. The story line sort of takes the form of an explanation from God that he's just using the Assyrian empire to punish Judah and Israel, but when he accomplishes his purpose of dispersing all the idol worshipers he'll cut ties with the Assyrians and restore the united monarchy to the house of Jesse. I stand corrected on the literality of the lineage. In context I do, now, see the implication toward the restoration of the royal lineage.

Chris

 

[juantoo3]

Continuing on the thought surrounding the raising of an ensign:

"Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

St. John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

St. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

St. John 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

St. John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

St. John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

St. John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

St. John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

I love the way the Bible feeds itself. I came here to look for the passage in the New Testament I remembered having to do with Jesus saying he would have to be lifted up, and lo! and behold he is pointing right back to Isaiah. (*Esaias is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Isaiah*)

St. John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Which refers to Isaiah 53, which I will include shortly...

St. John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

St. John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

St. John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Which refers, I believe to Isaiah 6:

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Isaiah 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Isaiah 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

Isaiah 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Which then returns us to end time prophecy and the time of Jacob's troubles:

Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Isaiah 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Isaiah 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

 

[juantoo3]

Isaiah 53​

Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I had hoped to save Psalms 22 for the next Bible study, but seeing where this ended up I can't help but see the similarities between Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 and the Passion as told in the Gospels:

Psalms 22​

Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psalms 22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

Psalms 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

Psalms 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

Psalms 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

Psalms 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Psalms 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

Psalms 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Psalms 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

Psalms 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Psalms 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

Psalms 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

Psalms 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

Psalms 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Psalms 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalms 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Psalms 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Psalms 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

Psalms 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

Psalms 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

Psalms 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Psalms 22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

Psalms 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Psalms 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

Psalms 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

Psalms 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalms 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

Psalms 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Psalms 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

 

[juantoo3]

Isaiah 11 continued:​

Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

I'm not about to pretend I have this prophecy completely figured out, but there are some pretty amazing things that have happened historically that seem to correlate: "the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people"..."and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth" sure sounds to me like the ingathering of Judah to re-establish Israel in 1948. Ephraim is one of the half-tribes of Joseph, and is historically associated with Britain. Back in the day (750 BC + / -) before the House of Israel was carried away by Assyria, Ephraim had been a political rival to Judah. Now Britain (and by extension the US) are Israel's staunchest allies.

Isaiah 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Edom is the descendents of Esau as I recall being taught, now settled in Russia. Moses' wife was a Moabitess, so I am guessing Moab is the nomadic desert shepherds of Arabia; Ammon is in Jordan.

11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

Isaiah 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

I am not about to say I can interpret this part, other than it sounds a great deal like the description elsewhere of Armaggedon.

 

[Bruce Michael]

As is being discussed elsewhere, in order for Jesus to qualify as "a rod out of the stem of Jesse" he would have to be a blood descendent of the line of Hebrew kings.

"Jesse" - that is where we get the word "Essene". And Jesus did visit that particular community.

 

[juantoo3]

"Jesse" - that is where we get the word "Essene". And Jesus did visit that particular community.

I have certainly read where some make the assertion that Jesus at least visited the Essene community, others venture so far as to suggest he was the Teacher of Righteousness. I am not so convinced, as I have also read matters that contradict such assertions. I choose to remain untethered to either side of this particular argument, to me it is irrelevent to my getting back "home." But it is an interesting mental exercise for those who wish to pursue it.

The word "Essene" is not listed in Strong's, so I have no way to verify whether or not it comes from the same word as "Jesse." Jesse means "I possess."

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

I suppose that could be the name of a cloistered sect of radical Judaism, "possession," but it seems a strange one to me considering the emphasis placed by that community on distancing themselves from worldly possessions and wealth. But then, history is full of strange things...

 

[Bruce Michael]

I have certainly read where some make the assertion that Jesus at least visited the Essene community, others venture so far as to suggest he was the Teacher of Righteousness. I am not so convinced, as I have also read matters that contradict such assertions. I choose to remain untethered to either side of this particular argument, to me it is irrelevent to my getting back "home." But it is an interesting mental exercise for those who wish to pursue it.

The word "Essene" is not listed in Strong's, so I have no way to verify whether or not it comes from the same word as "Jesse." Jesse means "I possess."

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

I suppose that could be the name of a cloistered sect of radical Judaism, "possession," but it seems a strange one to me considering the emphasis placed by that community on distancing themselves from worldly possessions and wealth. But then, history is full of strange things...

The Teacher of Righteousness is not Jesus of Nazareth. There are a lot of differences, the main one being that Jesu Ben Pandira/Panthera (Teacher of Righteousness) lived 100 B.C.

We will follow the 4 stages of Messianism as outlined by J.

This is where the "Jesus People" got their designations as N'tzrim "Branchers" and "Jesseans." Epiphanius suggests that the Yeshuine group was called IESSAIOI very early on (Panarion 29 1, 3-9; 4,9) and that they were also called the N'TZRIM is well known. Acts 13:22-23, Romans 15:12, Romans 5:5, 22:16 give witness to some of these early designations.

The Qumran community could have been the hardline apocalyptic sect and the Yeshuines may have called themselves "The Way" to indicate "our WAY is better than their WAY." Soon IESSAIOI seems to have fallen out of use and the Yeshuine group were called the N'tzarim. It cannot be a coincidence that the only OT passage with clear messianic interpretation, "The Netzer of Jesse" lies behind the two earliest self designations of the Yeshuines. Has this anything to do, however, with the Essaioi? Before we discuss this, let us return for a moment to the etymological free-for-all over the derivation of the Nazaraioi, Nazareni, Nazerini (Pliny), etc. There may also have been a pre-Jesus, pre-Essene forerunner called Nazarioi.

"Netzer, Nazaraioi, Nazareni, Nazerini" and then to "Nazareth".

Regards,
Br.Bruce

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bruce Michael!

The Teacher of Righteousness is not Jesus of Nazareth. There are a lot of differences, the main one being that Jesu Ben Pandira/Panthera (Teacher of Righteousness) lived 100 B.C.

I agree there are differences, but that doesn't seem to stop certain others from reaching whatever conclusions they wish.

"Netzer, Nazaraioi, Nazareni, Nazerini" and then to "Nazareth".

This *does* appear to make sense. Thank you for this! Wasn't Sampson a Nazarite priest?

Then too, Jesus is sometimes associated with the priesthood of Melchizedek.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Kindest Regards, Bruce Michael!

I agree there are differences, but that doesn't seem to stop certain others from reaching whatever conclusions they wish.


This *does* appear to make sense. Thank you for this! Wasn't Sampson a Nazarite priest?

Then too, Jesus is sometimes associated with the priesthood of Melchizedek.

Hey juantoo3,

Samson broke the Nazarite oath when his hair was cut.

Nazareth was founded by Netzer (a pupil of the Teacher of Righteousness).

The Teacher of Righteousness of the Dead Sea Scrolls is mentioned in the Talmud; he was stoned to death and hung on a tree in Lud /Lyddia.

Jeshu Ben Pandira - also had disciples of his own, but they were a lesser number than Christ Jesus.

Jeshu was a common name. I have read that in some old copies of the Gospels Barrabas is also called Jesus Barrabas. This was taken out for obvious reasons but there is probably a deeper mystery there.

Back in 1956 Professor John Allegro wrote an article for Time magazine-
Crucifixion Before Christ - TIME
Crucifixion Before Christ - TIME

Quote:
The Qumrân settlement, he said, was founded by a group of "religious extremists," the Essenes. They probably fled into the desert from Jerusalem's evil priest-king, Alexander Jannaeus, who ruled from 103 to 76 B.C. The unpopular Jannaeus was once pelted with fruit on the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth). According to Professor Allegro, this was the man who descended on Qumrân and arrested its leader, the mysterious "Teacher of Righteousness," whom he turned over to his mercenaries to be crucified.
"Already, in Jerusalem, this Jewish tyrant had displayed his bestiality by inflicting the same awful death on eight hundred rebels," says Professor Allegro. "A Qumrân manuscript speaks in shocked tones of the enormity of this crime . . .

Kind Regards,
Br.Bruce

 

[bob x]

"ben Panthera" is a mocking name for Jesus based on the story that he was a bastard son of a Roman soldier: Panther was a fairly common name in Latin, and it made a pun of parthenos "virgin" (the claim was that the Christian story of Jesus being the son of a parthenos was just a garbling, and he was really the son of a Pantheros).
There is no connection to the Essenes or their Teacher at all.

 

[Bruce Michael]

"ben Panthera" is a mocking name for Jesus based on the story that he was a bastard son of a Roman soldier: Panther was a fairly common name in Latin, and it made a pun of parthenos "virgin" (the claim was that the Christian story of Jesus being the son of a parthenos was just a garbling, and he was really the son of a Pantheros).
There is no connection to the Essenes or their Teacher at all.

That is one theory Bob; but I am not dealing in theories.
Nevertheless that is how history names the Teacher of Righteousness.

It is exceedingly difficult to classify these Mamzer legends or to treat them in any satisfactory chronological fashion, but it is remarkable that in them there seem to be two deposits of tradition characterised by different names for Jeschu—Ben Stada and Ben Pandera, names which have given rise to the wildest philological speculation, but of which the current mean-ing was evidently simply "son of the harlot," whatever may have been their line of descent. Ben Stada occurs exclusively in the Talmud, where it is the most frequent designation of Jeschu, though Ben Pandera is also found; Ben Pandera is found in the Toldoth Jeschu, and as we have seen in the Church Fathers, while Ben Stada is never met with in these sources.

The story has been put forward since early times that Jeschu Ben Pandera was Jesus of Nazareth- wrong!

G. R. S. Mead did a great study on the subject in
Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.? by G. R. S. Mead

Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?

An Enquiry into the Talmud Jesus Stories, the Toldoth Jeschu, and Some Curious Statements of Epiphanius --
Being a Contribution to the Study of Christian Origins.

Best Regards,
Br.Bruce

PS
This page relates to the discoveries of Prof. Allegro:

Mead: Chapter VIII  The Talmud 100 Years BC Story of Jesus