Lazarus and the rich man
- Thread starter Azure24
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pattimax
Somewhat returning
Scipture says nothing about post mortem conversions. God's offer of salvation doesn't appear to extend beyond death.
Is that literal? Is that what you were asking? How do you see it?
Is that literal? Is that what you were asking? How do you see it?
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M
mee
Guest
Yes indeed i do
What does the parable mean? The "rich man" represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
Close...
"...he dressed in purple and fine linen (cambric) (Luke 16:19)
Why should we care what color or what fabric of clothing he wore? Fine clothing are not a sin. What does that have to do with a man’s character, virtue, or deeds?
Though the Rich man may, indeed, be suffering discomfort or pain, it is not from fire burning his flesh, but rather from being tested and proved through chastisement.
It is an interesting fact of Scripture that except for Paul "punishing" the church, there is only ONE SCRIPTURE in the whole new testament that uses the word "punishment." All others use the word "chastisement" which always carries the connotation of correction and bringing things back to what is right again. Chastisement by it’s very definition CANNOT be eternal. There is always a purpose and goal in mind with the use of the word chastise.
"And he shouting, said..."
Impossible. Proof: Psalm 31:17--"...let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [Heb. SHEOL]. There it is! There is no talking and no shouting in sheol. If anyone can literally "shout" in hades or sheol they make God a liar.
Anyway like I said why was he (Rich man) dressed in purple?
and
What makes you think it was referring to the Pharisees (Rich man) and common jews (Lazarus)?
M
mee
Guest
Because of its costliness, this color (purple)often was associated with or symbolized riches, honor, and royal majesty.
and Jesus was talking to his diciples about how we cannot slave for riches and God . but as you mentioned, it is not wrong to be rich we could just be born into a rich family , but it is the slaving after riches that is wrong ,we need to slave for God instead .
and the money loving ones dressed in purple ,were listening in and mocking
The "purple and linen" in which the rich man was decked out were comparable to garb worn only by princes, nobles, and priests. (Es 8:15; Ge 41:42; Ex 28:4, 5) They were very costly.
M
mee
Guest
when it comes to spiritual priviledges ,those who thought they had them will nolonger have them. and those who were looked down on , would have the priviledges instead . change of circumstances it seems .
C
cyberpi
Guest
It is interesting that your fact does not mention who translated your version of scripture.
There is a will that can forever deny that goal. Does that not count as eternal?
No. I was talking about in it's original text (of the scriptures). Look it up on the internet if you want...
Anyway there is only one man who Scripturally fits all the descriptions of the "rich man" in this parable. Only one person who "personifies" all of the symbols and identifying clues given of this rich man. And that man is Judah.
But not just Judah as an historical individual, but collectively. All Israel under the headship of Judah, the Jews. And the Jews were "rich."
The Rich man didn’t just dress in "Purple," but "Purple and Cambric." He wore both. Cambric or Fine Linen is symbolic of the clothing that the priests wore (Ex. 28:5, 25:4). And of the interior decorations of the Tabernacle itself (Ex. 26:1).
Lazarus represents Eliezer (Abraham's faithful steward). Eliezer was so faithful a steward to Abraham that he was planning to make him his heir and give Eliezer all his possessions and inheritance. Eliezer would have been wealthy. He would have inherited the "promised land." He would have received the "oracles of God" Ah, but no, God had different plans. Abraham would have a son Isaac who would continue the Abrahamic line.
As a Gentile, all Eliezer could ever hope for were the spiritual "crumbs" that fell from the Rich man’s table. Though through faith God works many miracles.
It is the Gentiles that God is primarily dealing with today! In the scriptures Paul says there is to be only a "remnant" of Jews. His calling was to the nations. However, Paul knew that God was still calling a "few" of the Jews. "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh [Jews], and might save some of them" (Rom. 11:14).
For nearly two thousand years now God is calling primarily the Gentiles..
C
cyberpi
Guest
The original... well, that would be with God and the men who wrote it. Should I not ask God and the men who wrote it, instead of the internet? Could you point me in your direction though... what version of text are you reading from?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your interest in Lazarus and the rich man has something to do with the divide then between them after life, am I correct? There is a decision for the rich person to make here and now, and that decision requires will. Do you trust in the riches, or do you trust in the soul... the free will... of even the most poor, who might be given much more than you in another life?
Ok, it was written in Greek originally. and ask God? Why? Just try to look for older versions of the Bible.
Are you taking this parable literally (oh dear)? Maybe I should educate you...
I am going to some length to demonstrate the absolute absurdity of teaching this parable of Lazarus or any other parable as a literal and historical event.
If taken literally, this parable consists of statements that are illogical, unscriptural, contradictory, and impossible. But, when we understand the symbolism of this parable, it opens up our understanding to God’s dealing with all peoples on earth! We must know the real identity of these two individuals before we can know that their treatment is a just treatment based on their lives and based on God’s grace.
Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and multitudes in parables:
"And He begins to speak to them in parables." (Mk.. 12:1).
Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables ONLY:
"All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them..." (Mat. 13:34).
According to the popular teaching of this parable, the Rich man is in an eternal Hell of torture and Lazarus is in eternal Heavenly bliss. Well let’s be sure then to pay special attention to those traits of character that have separated these two individuals into two entirely different realms.
"Now a certain man was rich..."
Many reading these words immediately conclude that being rich must be a sin. This is the one outstanding feature of this man--he is RICH. Is that a sin? Abraham, just talking distance away here, was very rich (Gen. 13:2). Isaac was rich, Jacob was rich, Joseph was rich, David (a man after God’s own heart) was rich. Job was the richest man in all the East (Job. 1:3). And it was God Who blessed them, that’s why they were rich. Being rich is no character flaw or sin.
Christ said that it is difficult for a rich man to inherit the Kingdom, for example, and that certainly is true. But it is not the fact of being rich that makes this so, but rather the power that wealth has over the soul to keep one from pursuing spiritual things. Some people are "rich" and are right with God. Other people are "rich" and are not right with God. But the bottom line is how God has constituted the person himself that makes the difference, not the fact that he is wealthy.
Besides, if Lazarus is a godly man why is he begging food? Read Psa. 37:25:
"...Yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, NOR HIS SEED BEGGING BREAD"!
There is absolutely nothing in the discription of Lazarus that would indicate he was a godly man. But when we identify him, there is much to show that he was a godly man, and that his poverty and sickness was not that of a literally diseased beggar in the street.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
Kind of makes you want to repent before the fact, huh?
According to the Lord, hindsight will not be 20/20.
M
mee
Guest
because he is looking to the so called spiritual leaders for spiritual comfort , this parable that Jesus is talking to them about is about spiritual riches and blessings . and the ones who think they have them are not blessed at all ,because the blessings will change position. and the so called leaders will be tormented , not in a litral hellfire way though.
bob x
Well-Known Member
Isaac Asimov commented on this passage: "The author must not have been very observant."
C
cyberpi
Guest
Matthew 4:4
Matthew 6:11
Luke 16:25
I'm a little lost in your words Azure. What would you do when a literally diseased beggar in the street asks you for help?
The Greek "Lazarus" is from Lazaros [Heb. HELPLESS].
But in Hebrew "Lazarus" is Elazar or "Eliezer" from el [God] and azar [HELP]!
Lazarus [Eliezer] was: "...cast at his [Rich man’s] gate [portal]..."
The Rich man, regardless of his character or lack thereof, was obviously blessed of God:
"The Lord shall make thee plenteous in goods..." (Deut. 28:11).
And "...bless all the work of thine hand" (Ver 12).
As he sewed, so he reaped (Gal. 6:7, II Cor. 9:6-7).
He got "good things in life" and the Scripture plainly tells us that
"Every GOOD gift is from above..." (Jas. 1:17).
Lazarus was obviously cursed of God:
"...thou shalt. not prosper" (Deut. 28:16).
The "botch and scab" (Ver. 27 & 29).
It was the "Gentiles" who were not allowed into the Royal and Priestly House of Judah. They could go no further than "The court of the Gentiles." Any blessings they received had to come to them from inside where they were never allowed to go! Though designated as "proselytes," they were, nonetheless, like "dogs" who only got the "crumbs" or scraps! Hence we find Lazarus cast "at the gate."
Lazarus doesn’t represent materialistically poor Jews, but spiritually poor Gentiles. That’s the whole point here in the parable. Judah was rich and knew it! They were like the Laodiceans who said:
"I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Rev. 3:17).
"...Father Abraham, be merciful to me, and send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water..."
In figurative and symbolic language the Rich man asks for a drop of water on the tip of Lazarus’ finger. How appropriate! Who was it that refused to help the "poor" with so much as their little finger?
"For they [Judah] bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers" (Mat. 23:4).
"...and spake unto Rehoboam [King of Judah], saying, ... make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee. But he forsook the counsel of the old men ... My little finger shall be thicker than my father’s loins ... my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions" (I Kg. 12:7:11).
Now Judah begs the assistance of a finger from a poor man! And not just a poor man, but a poor Gentile! It was custom for pious Jews to cut a section of their garment off if it were so much as touched by the finger of a Gentile. Now the rich and lofty personification of God’s chosen people begs for the assistance of a Gentile FINGER.
We represent the Gentiles...
But we're not talking literal are we!
Gal. 6:7, II Cor. 9:6-7. It is God Who makes both rich and poor (I Sam. 2:7).
But in Hebrew "Lazarus" is Elazar or "Eliezer" from el [God] and azar [HELP]!
Lazarus [Eliezer] was: "...cast at his [Rich man’s] gate [portal]..."
The Rich man, regardless of his character or lack thereof, was obviously blessed of God:
"The Lord shall make thee plenteous in goods..." (Deut. 28:11).
And "...bless all the work of thine hand" (Ver 12).
As he sewed, so he reaped (Gal. 6:7, II Cor. 9:6-7).
He got "good things in life" and the Scripture plainly tells us that
"Every GOOD gift is from above..." (Jas. 1:17).
Lazarus was obviously cursed of God:
"...thou shalt. not prosper" (Deut. 28:16).
The "botch and scab" (Ver. 27 & 29).
It was the "Gentiles" who were not allowed into the Royal and Priestly House of Judah. They could go no further than "The court of the Gentiles." Any blessings they received had to come to them from inside where they were never allowed to go! Though designated as "proselytes," they were, nonetheless, like "dogs" who only got the "crumbs" or scraps! Hence we find Lazarus cast "at the gate."
Lazarus doesn’t represent materialistically poor Jews, but spiritually poor Gentiles. That’s the whole point here in the parable. Judah was rich and knew it! They were like the Laodiceans who said:
"I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Rev. 3:17).
"...Father Abraham, be merciful to me, and send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water..."
In figurative and symbolic language the Rich man asks for a drop of water on the tip of Lazarus’ finger. How appropriate! Who was it that refused to help the "poor" with so much as their little finger?
"For they [Judah] bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers" (Mat. 23:4).
"...and spake unto Rehoboam [King of Judah], saying, ... make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee. But he forsook the counsel of the old men ... My little finger shall be thicker than my father’s loins ... my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions" (I Kg. 12:7:11).
Now Judah begs the assistance of a finger from a poor man! And not just a poor man, but a poor Gentile! It was custom for pious Jews to cut a section of their garment off if it were so much as touched by the finger of a Gentile. Now the rich and lofty personification of God’s chosen people begs for the assistance of a Gentile FINGER.
We represent the Gentiles...
But we're not talking literal are we!
Gal. 6:7, II Cor. 9:6-7. It is God Who makes both rich and poor (I Sam. 2:7).
C
cyberpi
Guest
I was. Literally, what would you do when a literally diseased beggar in the street literally asks you for help?
bob x
Well-Known Member
If "Lazarus" (Eleazar) is supposed to represent "the Gentiles", it was really silly of Jesus to give that character a specifically Jewish name.
M
mee
Guest
in the parable the beggar Lazarus well represents those humble persons whom the Pharisees despised but who repented and became followers of Jesus Christ.
"But a certain man was rich," Jesus explains, "and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers."
Jesus here uses the rich man to represent the Jewish religious leaders, including not only the Pharisees and the scribes but the Sadducees and the chief priests as well. They are rich in spiritual privileges and opportunities, and they conduct themselves as the rich man did. Their clothing of royal purple represents their favored position, and the white linen pictures their self-righteousness.
This proud rich-man class views the poor, common people with utter contempt, calling them ‛am ha·’a´rets, or people of the earth. The beggar Lazarus thus represents these people to whom the religious leaders deny proper spiritual nourishment and privileges. Hence, like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people are looked down upon as spiritually diseased and fit only to associate with dogs.
Jesus here uses the rich man to represent the Jewish religious leaders, including not only the Pharisees and the scribes but the Sadducees and the chief priests as well. They are rich in spiritual privileges and opportunities, and they conduct themselves as the rich man did. Their clothing of royal purple represents their favored position, and the white linen pictures their self-righteousness.
This proud rich-man class views the poor, common people with utter contempt, calling them ‛am ha·’a´rets, or people of the earth. The beggar Lazarus thus represents these people to whom the religious leaders deny proper spiritual nourishment and privileges. Hence, like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people are looked down upon as spiritually diseased and fit only to associate with dogs.
Christ rarely spoke of the Gentiles in His ministry. But He did speak of them. And, although, He said He was sent only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, in His human ministry, He nonetheless, was making provisions for the Gentiles, as in this prophetic statement. As Christ’s disciples were to be like "salt" to the earth, the Syro-Phoenician woman, Cornelius of the Italian squadron, the Roman Centurion, the Samaritan woman at the well, and others were certainly like "salt" among the Jews. The very first sermon of Christ’s ministry foretold the calling of the Gentiles, and it nearly cost Christ His life (Luke 4:13-30).
in Hebrew "Lazarus" is Elazar or "Eliezer" from el [God] and azar [HELP]!
You see bob x it is a parable, didn't Jesus speak to the Jews? Lazarus was a common name. The name itself isn't the issue but instead it's meaning.
"For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things..." (Deu. 4:7).
The Rich man didn’t just dress in "Purple," but "Purple and Cambric." He wore both. Cambric or Fine Linen is symbolic of the clothing that the priests wore (Ex. 28:5, 25:4). And of the interior decorations of the Tabernacle itself (Ex. 26:1).
Our Lord would not have told us that the Rich man wore these two specific types of garments except that they have great symbolic value in identifying who this man personifies.
Remember, the Levites and the priests were loyal to Judah through their long history.
"Now the woman was a Greek, a native of Syro-Phoenicia [A Gentile], and she asked Him that He should be casting the demon out of her daughter. Yet Jesus said to her, ‘Let first the children [The Jews] be satisfied, for it is not ideal to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs.’ Yet she answered and is saying to Him, ‘Yes, Lord, For the dogs also, underneath the table, are eating the scraps from the little children.’ And He said to her, ‘Because of this saying, go. The demon has come out of your daughter.’" (Mk. 6:27-29).
So clearly this Syro-Phoenician woman was not asking for a small portion of food (crumbs or scraps), but rather a small portion of Christ’s spiritual blessing. And clearly, Lazarus does not represent a street beggar in need of a small portion of food. He personifies something much greater than one single beggar in the street.
When Christ entered Capernaum a centurion [a Roman, a Gentile] asked Christ to heal his boy. Christ said He would come. The Centurion said He need only to "say the word" and he would trust Christ for the healing!
"When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to them that followed, ‘Verily I say unto you I have not found so great faith no, not in Israel’" (Mat. 8:5-10).
Why then, are the Gentiles relegated to "dogs?" Not in all Israel did our Lord find such faith as in these GENTILE "DOGS!" But "Judah" gets all the blessings while the "Gentile" dogs get the crumbs?
"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and the west [Gentiles], and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of Heaven, but the children of the kingdom [Judah--the Jews] shall be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Mat. 8:11-12).
Christ is not telling us that "Jews" from the East and "Jews" from the West will sit down with Abraham, but that the "Jews" shall be cast out." That’s contradictory. It’s the "Jews" who are the "children of the kingdom" who are "cast out." And those from the East and West are "GENTILES." Christ is telling us who these "many" are because He is commenting on the faith that God has given to this Centurion Gentile.
...And who has been preaching the Evangel for the past two thousand years? The Jews? Hardly. It has been the Gentiles that have translated the Scriptures into nearly every language on earth. It is those called of the Gentiles that are accepting Christ Jesus as their Savior, not the Jews. It is really a rare thing to find Jews accepting Christ as the Messiah. And that’s why we find Lazarus [Eliezer--the Gentiles] in the bosom of Abraham, and the Rich man [the Jews] engulfed in flames of Anti-Semitism for the past two thousand years (though they are not in or going to Hell).
Lazarus doesn’t represent materialistically poor Jews, but spiritually poor Gentiles. That’s the whole point here in the parable. Judah was rich and knew it! They were like the Laodiceans who said:
"I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Rev. 3:17).
"...Father Abraham, be merciful to me, and send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water..."
Why don't you quote?
In Judah were both the Royal Scepter (purple) and the Priesthood (fine linen). And that’s the reason Christ took the time to tell us what the Rich man was wearing! And no other personality in Scripture has both these designations along with all the other identifying features attributed to the Rich man.
Father Abraham "...Child, be reminded..."
Judah could therefore legitimately call Abraham, "Father." Abraham was Judah’s Great Grandfather. Abraham could legitimately call the Rich man, "Child." Judah was Abraham’s Great Grandchild.
"They have Moses and the Prophets..."
The Kingdom of Judah did have "Moses and the Prophets." They were the protectors and scribes of those very documents till the time of our Lord’s ministry, when Jesus said that they "sit in Moses’ seat." Judah was the very depository for The Law (Moses), The Prophets, and the Writings. Remember the Oracles were given to the Jews (Rom. 3:1-2).
The Rich man said: "I have five brothers..."
there were five spheres where there were "Jews" who heard Christ proclaimed after His resurrection:
Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the "limits of the land" and those Jews dispersed "among the nations."
At first glance, you might think Judah can’t be this "Rich man." Didn’t Judah have eleven brothers? Yes and No. True, there were twelve sons of Israel, one of which was Judah, but not all by the same mother.