a small problem with the trinity

_Z_

_Z_

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small problem with the trinity
please be patient i am trying to get my head around abrahamic religions.

i don’t understand the trinity, so i ask this with all respect; if it is problematic having god the son that is god the father who ‘gave’ mary the mother the son? in human terms he would have made his own mother pregnant with himself?

so how does it work; presuming this is not the case?
 
A-HA! :D My brother do you pick your timings for topics at just the right moment! Bless you brother! We got two hot leads right about now... Perhaps you can ask two sides for an opinion?

You have this FOR the trinity: (a couple disagreements, naturally...): http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/trinity-8565.html

This NOT FOR the trinity: (A couple disagreements, naturally...): http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/the-trinity-from-the-jw-8750.html

Apart from that my most excellent friend, your guess is as good as mine.
 
hi alex p
i always had good timing. :)

i will have a look thanks for the links but do they cover it? if not... [edit; they dont seam to tackle the question from this practicle angle]

so does what i am saying make sense or am i missing the whole point of what the trinity is - i just don’t know much about it?
 
Sorry I think perhaps we should find you a better source then as you wish to learn seriously the trinity I shall find what I can on the trinity as, the two before mentioned threads... They could easily leave you confused and I really don't wish to do that, it isn't fair... Here brother. Just read that first before reading the other threads I pasted, so you have an idea on the trinity, then if you wish so, I'd suggest seeing the two threads... And see the varied opinions on this teaching.

What is the Trinity
 
ok i am just reading that last thread - thanks. it is so far pretty much as i thought, in fact i have taken the idea to a universal level in many a thread [even though i only had a vague idea of it lols].

the problem for me is when you add mary who is not of the trinity, then the above confusion sets in! personally i would add mary to the equation on a spiritual level ~ my trinity would be...

god - the one and the whole.
spirit - of god in divine essence.
world - the physical and all that dwells within.

i am unsure if that helps the problem, except we may say that god can give mary child who then give birth to jesus, so it is like 1, 2, 3, of the above. the confusion comes when we consider 3 as the 1 in performing ‘the task’ with 2.
 
I think that the Trinity is a metaphor, a way for man to understand God better. It is not an actual reality.

The idea is... God, as one, is hard to describe and hard to understand. God often does not seem to be one.

Let's look at it another way.

God, is one, but has different faces, or aspects...

there is "God the father", the protector, the authoritarian, he who must be obeyed and respected and feared...

But... that is not all God is... God is also "God the son", the child of his father, the young man, imperfect but innocent, the one you love like a son...

But, that is not all God is either... God is also "the spirit", something difficult to grasp, something like the wind, or the breath, or water, something which is real and powerful but which is hard to grasp in your hand...

All those things together, are God...

Man will interact with God on one of these levels. A man will view God as a punisher, a ruler maker, a being who tells you what to do for your own good, or man will view God as they would a son, somebody they have a loving relationship with, or they will view God as a spirit, something intangible yet real.

This metaphor is used by some christians for a reason which most christians will not accept, yet I will say it anyway.

The only reason there is a Trinity concept within christianity is because in pagan times there was a trinity. A trinity of past, present and future, a trinity of a maiden, mother, and crone, all ways of philosophically explaining time, and existence, and when christianity invaded ancient Britain and Western europe they found the concept of the trinity too difficult to destroy and incorporated a similar tale into the christian system so the people would not have too much difficulty accepting the new ways, which, on the surface at least, resembled the older ways...

As for Mary giving birth to God...

Did she? Or did she instead give birth to a man who we have made into a God?
 
mary gave the Word of God his humanity, his human body, so he could be born a man, under the law, to lay down his life and be crucified and die for us as the only sacrifice that could please God, and resurrect so we might find life in him, be forgiven of sins and find salvation thru the Son of God. the holy spirit of God gave Christ his deity, as the fullness of God dwelt fully in him which gave him the authority to forgive sins and offer salvation. So although Christ was born a man for a period of time, in Spirit he always exists with God and as God.
 
Excellent summary, BlaznFattyz, if I may say.

Thomas
 
francis hi
nice explanation.
you are right about pagan Trinities, many things were carried over into christianity e.g. the arch druid became the arch bishop of cantebury [? i think], then yes the triple goddess and the festivals.

i suppose i try to understand god as the spirit then.

blaznfattyz, hi
i see so jesus between death and rising is the spirit of god and i suppose he is such before and after his life.
are we all god as spirit before and after death?
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none of this answers the problem of course. jesus still impregnates his own mother with himself in the literal context.

for now i will stick to the idea that jesus was a man like the rest of us but rose to god, that we may all follow and do the same. of course the problem then is that if we all do so then we stop observing earthly concerns ~ like having children, living a materialistic lifestyle etc.

thanks for replies, the idea as ever is only to bring one nearer to truth. :)
 
_Z_ said:
blaznfattyz, hi
i see so jesus between death and rising is the spirit of god and i suppose he is such before and after his life.
are we all god as spirit before and after death?
-----------------------------
none of this answers the problem of course. jesus still impregnates his own mother with himself in the literal context.

for now i will stick to the idea that jesus was a man like the rest of us but rose to god, that we may all follow and do the same. of course the problem then is that if we all do so then we stop observing earthly concerns ~ like having children, living a materialistic lifestyle etc.

thanks for replies, the idea as ever is only to bring one nearer to truth. :)
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Jesus at birth was already known as the Son of God, and this is why angels, and men worshiped him at birth. He was God before coming as a man, He was God when he died, and He was God when he resurrected and was glorifed back to the Father. No we are not all god as spirit before and after death, we are his creation, and we have the ability to have the holy spirit of God dwell within us if we have a relationship with Christ, and to be glorified one day as Christ paved the way for us and is the way.
you are incorrect in saying jesus impregnated himself, but i think you wanted to say that for whatever reason. It is correct to say that the Father sent the Word of God, the part of God which all things were created for and by him, to be among us. and the way he did that was thru the virgin Mary to supply the body, and thru the Holy Spirit to supply the Spirit of God which is the deity of Christ which always existed before all things as God.
 
blaznfattyz
No we are not all god as spirit before and after death
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we have the ability to have the holy spirit of God dwell within us
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if we have a relationship with Christ
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the first sentence contradicts the second, the third says that if we do not have a relationship with christ then the spirit cannot dwell in us? i would think that the spirit either does or does not dwell in us [and animals and mother earth etc], god would be most cruel otherwise. i think god is very wise indeed and would not wish for, nor create such an inane state of affairs, he would surely create a fair and equal world/universe.

as all the universe is his creation why is it that only humans have his spirit and then only if they believe in jesus as the literal son of god?
if perfect then perfection only may ensue. ;)

you are incorrect in saying jesus impregnated himself,
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but i think you wanted to say that for whatever reason.
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:eek:

i didn’t actually, i said that jesus impregnated ‘mary’ with himself, may i please state that i don’t think that is the case, i think it is a problem with the idea of the trinity, and i didn’t say it to inflame. i get these crazy ideas so i have to say them to work it all out, sorry for looking at things in a practical manner.

thanks for reply.
 
_Z_ said:
the first sentence contradicts the second, the third says that if we do not have a relationship with christ then the spirit cannot dwell in us? i would think that the spirit either does or does not dwell in us [and animals and mother earth etc], god would be most cruel otherwise. i think god is very wise indeed and would not wish for, nor create such an inane state of affairs, he would surely create a fair and equal world/universe.

as all the universe is his creation why is it that only humans have his spirit and then only if they believe in jesus as the literal son of god?
if perfect then perfection only may ensue. ;)


:eek:

i didn’t actually, i said that jesus impregnated ‘mary’ with himself, may i please state that i don’t think that is the case, i think it is a problem with the idea of the trinity, and i didn’t say it to inflame. i get these crazy ideas so i have to say them to work it all out, sorry for looking at things in a practical manner.

thanks for reply.
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no the first sentence doesnt contradict the second. we have souls, or some might say spirit, but not everyone has the holy spirit of God within them, or all would say that Christ is Lord, but that is not the case, which is what the Spirit guides and teaches one to understand. Those not born again of the Spirit do not have the Spirit. The Spirit of God does not dwell within those that are evil and rebuke God, and we are not talking animals, we are talking man and his salvation. of course the spirit goes where he goes, like the wind, but in touching someone and them receiving the Spirit, they also at that moment have a relationship with Christ, and then have a relationship with the Father. You cannot have one without the other. God is not cruel in anyway you are thinking, animals are a different creation than man, and their ongoing life after death or recreation is something completely different from man as they do not choose evil or choose God, they are animals. man has a soul because God breathed life into man, and was made in his image, and our choices to obey God or not obey God makes all the difference, and is why Christ came.
 
Looking back through the threads....there are actually lots of threads on Trinity. 3 current active threads including this one. *the crowd goes "oooooh"* Yes, its a trinity of threads.
 
ha, a trinity of threads :p


blaz

god created us so our spirit is the spirit of god. but if you want to believe in that prejudice out of date literalist stuff, that is entirely up to you :). personally i don’t think people are evil if they belong to another religion or even if they are atheists.

i believe in evolution so we are animals just more intelligent ones. i cannot understand the logic where god creates something evil? unless you think something else created the universe, or had a hand in its creation?

still no answer to the original problem unless we don’t take it all to literally eh! ;) the problem is there to show that ~ it is a literal interpretation, thats all.
 
_Z_ said:
ha, a trinity of threads :p


blaz

god created us so our spirit is the spirit of god. but if you want to believe in that prejudice out of date literalist stuff, that is entirely up to you :). personally i don’t think people are evil if they belong to another religion or even if they are atheists.

i believe in evolution so we are animals just more intelligent ones. i cannot understand the logic where god creates something evil? unless you think something else created the universe, or had a hand in its creation?

still no answer to the original problem unless we don’t take it all to literally eh! ;) the problem is there to show that ~ it is a literal interpretation, thats all.
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I believe i gave you several answers from a christian point of view, but if you want to ignore it rather than understand it, thats a different story than having your question answered. if we had the spirit of God, as Christ has the spirit of God, then we would be God and not disobey him, or sin, or ever do evil. This is the difference between Jesus Christ, he was fully God, having the fullness of the Spirit of God, he did not sin, but the will of God he carried out, because being God he could do nothing other than what God would do. it seems really naive of you to say people are not evil or to not "understand the logic where god creates something evil." people choose to do evil things, people choose to sin, God creates all things and all His things are good, but man chooses to fashion them after his heart's desire and do evil with them, and that is where it goes bad. is that really so hard to understand?
 
if we had the spirit of God, as Christ has the spirit of God, then we would be God and not disobey him, or sin, or ever do evil. This is the difference between Jesus Christ, he was fully God, having the fullness of the Spirit of God, he did not sin, but the will of God he carried out, because being God he could do nothing other than what God would do.
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didn’t he say something like; though shalt not wash thy hands before eating, hence christians used to be dirty, the OT has many questionable instances too [i could quote but it is not on topic].

it seems really naive of you to say people are not evil [1] or to not "understand the logic where god creates something evil." ... God creates all things and all His things are good[2]
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1. did i say people are not evil ~ they are not they just do evil acts that doesn’t make the soul evil it makes it lost, although i wouldn’t entirely blame such individuals as much of it is created by society ~ nobody questions the righteous!

2. lions are ‘good’, how about t-rex? much of nature is not what i would call good. i agree though that we make evil in human society, war suffering etc.
does any of this answer the problem [i hope i don’t have to keep saying that].
 
I don't understand the trinity per se, but I understand that Jesus had a divine nature, which I believe stemmed from the Spirit of God. I don't believe that Jesus was God, tho - only a vessel for the Holy Spirit, or 'Word'. I'll give my view, but most will more than likely disagree. I wrote my views down a while back, so I'll just rehash some old ideas I've had in the past. :cool: How does all this fit into the Trinity? Only by implication that I disagree that Jesus was God Himself, and my personal view of Christ Jesus, the Word, and the wisdom of God....

“God is love” (1 John 4:7-17) Love is the very essence or “Spirit” of God, and Christ was the manifestation of that essence. Jesus was God’s only begotten son; the fullness of God dwelt within Him bodily. (Colossians 2:9) This does not suggest that Christ was God himself, but rather a vessel of God‘s spirit. Born of the flesh and of the Spirit, Christ possessed both a divine nature and a human nature. He experienced the human struggle fully, yet through the indwelling of God’s Spirit, he was able to conquer the carnal attributes of his flesh .

John 1:1-14

The scripture quoted above speaks of the Word of God and its manifestation in Christ, the only ‘begotten’ of the father. When reading these passages, it is helpful to keep in mind that when Christ taught, he did not teach of himself, (The man) but of the father that dwelt in him. (The Spirit)

Christ himself speaks of the Word as being something he possessed rather than something he was; this suggests to me that Jesus was not the literal Word, but rather a vessel for the Word.

(John 5:24 24.)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

(John 8:31-32)
31. Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples;
32. and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Most Christians view Christ himself as being the Word spoken of in John; some even suggest that it is biblical scripture. Then there are others whom view the wisdom Solomon spoke of in Proverbs to be the Word of God. I am not in disagreement with this latter sentiment, as the following passages parallel John 1:1-4.

Proverbs 8:22-26

Wisdom is what guided Solomon, it was his passion and source for instruction.

(Proverbs 19:16)
16. He who keeps the commandment keeps his life; he who despises the word will die.

(Proverbs 16:20)
20. He who gives heed to the word will prosper, and happy is he who trusts in the Lord.

(Proverbs 13:13)
13. He who despises the word brings destruction on himself, but he who respects the commandment will be rewarded.

Paul speaks also of God’s wisdom in 1 Corinthians 2:1-16. If you put all these passages in perspective, a clearer understanding of the Word begins to form. [imo]

1 Corinthians 2:1-16

Above Paul speaks of God’s hidden wisdom, which is the same wisdom Solomon tells us was established before the beginning of the world. Paul also speaks of the spirit of God, which we have received through Christ. We are to be spiritually minded, so let us consider the spirit of love “Agape“, which is the essence of the father. Solomon tells us in Proverbs 1:23 that wisdom is actually “Spirit“. “Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.“

Could the wisdom that Solomon spoke of be the wisdom which comes from walking in the ways of love? Could it be that love is also the Word and “spirit” through which all things were created? God is love; to know God, we must understand and walk in His ways.

Love can be compared to a compass; when followed it guides us, convicts us, it directs and redirects our steps. It simply enables us to walk the strait and narrow path. If we walked in love at all times, keeping our minds continually on it, inclining our hearts to its understanding, our feet would never stumble. Consider the following written by Solomon:

Proverbs 8:32-36

Love is the strait gate, and the narrow path that so many of us fail to enter and follow. (Matthew 7:13-20) It is the very same gate referred to in the scripture above. Understanding love, which is the wisdom and knowledge of God, unlocks that gate. Faith in love releases God‘s power, and hope that we can free from darkness through it, helps enable the spiritual man to keep its ways.

Christ walked in this spirit fully; it enabled him to live a perfect and sinless life. He is our example. Christ crucified the human and sinful nature of his own flesh through it, and we are to follow in his footsteps. All are able to receive this spirit, all are able to grow in it, and all are able to accomplish what God wants for us through its power. Even though we all sin and fall short of God’s glory, we have the opportunity to embrace His love, and become His adopted children. God’s spirit of love is given to us freely. Christ paid the price so we could receive what He possessed. If we fail to heed its guidance, we will forever remain in darkness, blind to the full measure of harm it causes both to self, and to those around us. Love, or the spirit and wisdom of God, enables us to walk in a manner conducive to peace, and in accordance to His will. It convicts us when we do wrong, and it moves us strait ward when we stumble. If we keep love in our hearts and follow in its ways, we will continue always in the grace of God, and of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Love is the wisdom written about in Proverbs; it is the wisdom of God, the hidden wisdom and spirit that dwelt within Christ our Lord. God’s wisdom and Word, is God’s Love and Spirit, which was fully manifest in Jesus. Christ was conceived of this spirit; he submitted to it fully. He embraced His Fathers will, living a perfect life. Because of His obedience to the Father, and through the spirit he possessed, Christ made a way for us to be reconciled to God also.

James
 
Gatekeeper, that post was a work of art. Do not work so hard on your posts, because its not fair to everyone else. Also, people will start asking you for help writing their resumes.
 
Ahhhhhh.....

Dream said:
Gatekeeper, that post was a work of art. Do not work so hard on your posts, because its not fair to everyone else. Also, people will start asking you for help writing their resumes.
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I wrote it all back in the summer.... Copy & paste, baby! I thought it might help to explain my view on trinitarian thought. Of course, I could have just said that I disagree with the trinity, but how insightful is that? Lots of holes in that trinity [imo] namely that very few, if any [truly] understand it. [Most admit, and submit to this fact] Ahhhh, but they still try to get others to adopt it, and some even suggest that one must believe in it to be saved. Then, they will tell you that you are not a true Christian if you don't, lol. :eek:

tsk, tsk...

Love

James - a.k.a "Happy Heretic"
 
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