Comparative Views: Consequence of "Sin"

Handmaiden07

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Well - for a comparative religion forum, I thought this would be a good topic! :) Since the inception of the Baha'i forum under the heading "Monotheism" (Thanks, Brian!) most of the topics have been exploratory - with an end answer available (and therefore self-limiting the responses).

SO I propose a topic where people are able to express themselves more openly, using scripture as reference. Particularly, since I'm a (relatively) new Baha'i, I'm hoping other Baha'is come in and share plenty on the topic!

The question is - what is the consequence of sin, in this life and in the hereafter? How does one atone for sin? Is sin even a real idea within Baha'i Faith? What does it mean?

I'm hoping I'm expressing myself clearly enough for this to be a robust conversation...

HM07
 
Sin in Catholicism

Handmaiden07 said:
...
... I propose a topic where people are able to express themselves more openly, using scripture as reference. Particularly, since I'm a (relatively) new Baha'i, I'm hoping other Baha'is come in and share plenty on the topic!

The question is - what is the consequence of sin, in this life and in the hereafter? How does one atone for sin? Is sin even a real idea within Baha'i Faith? What does it mean?

I'm hoping I'm expressing myself clearly enough for this to be a robust conversation...

HM07

I am a postgraduate Catholic, meaning no longer attached to the Catholic Church, but I still know a lot about Catholicism.

As regards sin, I was and am still a practitioner, everyday, in big things and in small things, in a Catholic context, that is. But I hope that God will go easy on me; because I am just a poor sinner. There are rich sinners, and I think He should go after them first. All in a Catholic context, of course.


Sin in Catholicism is an offense against God. Think of offense as when you hit someone intentionally to hurt him who does not deserve to be hit by you. Of course you can't hurt God, but just imagine that you can hurt Him, at least His feelings. You believe in God, you have to believe in sin, also.

How do your offend God? In your thoughts, in your words, and in your actions. Just like when you offend your neighbors.

Yet, as regards offending fellow humans, you can't offend him in thoughts unless and until you make known to him your thoughts. In God, since He knows everything, you can offend him by just thinking things He does not like. Like thinking that He's not fair, for not endowing you with grand physical traits whereas He does others.

In words, by saying things against Him or against people and things with a favorable relationship to Him, like his priests or ministers, and things special to Him, like altars consecrated to His service, and yes, the Sabbath Day, His day of rest. For example, if you say: "God is useless, His ministers are useless, His altars and His Sabbath are useless." That is a sin.

In actions, by doing things He does not approve of. Take the Ten Commandments, it's a list of sins against God; if you want to know what things to do that are sinful, you will find them there. Killing, stealing, lying, doing sex outside of marriage, they are all forbidden in the Ten Commandments.

Also, if you dishonor your parents, like calling them dumb-heads. This is under the commandment to "Honor thy father and thy mother." It is the first commandment that God issued after He drafted the first three ones to cover Himself.

The consequence of sin is you will go to hell. But there is a distinction in the Catholic Church between venial sins and mortal sins. Just one mortal sin will get you to hell, not venial ones. Venial sins get you to purgatory where you have to pay for them, but you will eventually get to heaven. Venial sins are small ones, mortal sins are big ones which qualify you for hell.

In this world, sin will make you worse and worse, meaning more and more sinful, and deprive you of God's blessings in this life, even though you don't seem to miss them.

How do you get rid of sins? By being sorry for them, confessing at least the mortal ones to an authorized priest to obtain forgiveness from God through the priest's absolution, with the promise not to do it again and to make up for the damages you might have done to others.


If you need more information about Catholic teachings on sins, let me know.

Susma Rio Sep
 
Hi Brian!

Indeed, the question of "what is sin" is inherent in this discussion. I hope to explore it a bit more as I go along. I hope everyone bears with me, because I'm researching and expressing my own thoughts as I do so. I plan to post a bit later more fully.

Hi Susma Rio Sep!

It is interesting to me that both here, and on another board, it is Catholics who responded most fully to the question! :) As I've been researching, what I'm noticing is that to a large extent, Baha'i Faith relies upon prior knowledge - that is, whatever faith traditions you grew up in, whatever constituted sin in your faith - that's your starting point, and Baha'i faith goes forward from there. This seems to me to be VERY fitting, as Baha'u'llah has reconcilled the differences between religions.

But again - I hope to post more later... :)
 
I meant to get back here sooner, but now I'll have to do a rush job.

In reviewing Baha'i writings, I came to the following conclusions, stated in summary. I'm stating these definitively, but I make this disclaimer that this is MY understanding, and not the "official" position on anything.

1. Baha'i understanding of sin stands on the shoulders of prior manifestations. In most cases, there are not "definitions" of sin - there is an assumption that everyone already knows what we are talking about. I think this is significant, given Baha'u'llah's role in reconciling the various religions.

2. Baha'i understanding of sin is (as stated) going against God's will

3. Baha'i understanding of sin is subservience to our physical natures. My understanding here is that we have physical natures that are required to move us forward in THIS life, but when we live attached to these physical natures, we are in sin. (Reference to Buddhist detachment, in my opinion)

4. The worst sin that is pardonable is backbiting - this supports the thrust of this dispensation toward unity. To think charitably of others, even to the point of avoiding any kind of backbiting is the call of the day.

5. The UNPARDONABLE sin is failure to educate children. In context I think this means keeping a child back from education, but it can be interpretted far more broadly than that. This particular sin supports the great Baha'i philosophy that religion is the great educator of humanity, and that God has done us the greatest good by perpetuating revelation to us. It also supports the Baha'i idea that sin ultimately is the result of ignorance.

I've more to say, but I thought I'd offer that as a start...

HM07
 
Hi, Handmaiden! :)

H>The UNPARDONABLE sin is failure to educate children.

I must point out, Maiden, that this is a personal interpretation, and hence "unofficial!"

The Bible specifically defines the one unpardonable sin, and there it's called "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." The Baha'i scriptures go on to clarify what this is as follows:

Question. - "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." - (Matt. 12:31-32)

Answer. - The holy realities of the Manifestations of God have two spiritual positions. One is the place of manifestation, which can be compared to the position of the globe of the sun, and the other is the resplendency of the manifestation, which is like its light and radiance; these are the perfections of God - in other words, the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Spirit is the divine bounties and lordly perfections, and these divine perfections are as the rays and heat of the sun. The brilliant rays of the sun constitute its being, and without them it would not be the sun. If the manifestation and the reflection of the divine perfections were not in Christ, Jesus would not be the Messiah. He is a Manifestation because He reflects in Himself the divine perfections. The Prophets of God are manifestations for the lordly perfections - that is, the Holy Spirit is apparent in Them.

If a soul remains far from the manifestation, he may yet be awakened; for he did not recognize the manifestation of the divine perfections. But if he loathe the divine perfections themselves - in other words, the Holy Spirit - it is evident that he is like a bat which hates the light.

This detestation of the light has no remedy and cannot be forgiven - that is to say, it is impossible for him to come near unto God. This lamp is a lamp because of its light; without the light it would not be a lamp. Now if a soul has an aversion for the light of the lamp, he is, as it were, blind, and cannot comprehend the light; and blindness is the cause of everlasting banishment from God.

It is evident that the souls receive grace from the bounty of the Holy Spirit which appears in the Manifestations of God, and not from the personality of the Manifestation. Therefore, if a soul does not receive grace from the bounties of the Holy Spirit, he remains deprived of the divine gift, and the banishment itself puts the soul beyond the reach of pardon.

This is why many people who were the enemies of the Manifestations, and who did not recognize Them, when once they had known Them became Their friends. So enmity toward the Manifestation did not become the cause of perpetual banishment, for they who indulged in it were the enemies of the light-holders, not knowing that They were the shining lights of God. They were not the enemies of the light, and when once they understood that the light-holder was the place of manifestation of the light, they became sincere friends of it.

The meaning is this: to remain far from the light-holder does not entail everlasting banishment, for one may become awakened and vigilant; but enmity toward the light is the cause of everlasting banishment, and for this there is no remedy.

(Some Answered Questions, Chapter 31, pages 127-128)
[end quote]

Regards,

Bruce
 
Ok... I took so long getting back here, sorry! Here are my original five assertions, with quotes as to why I asserted them. (But I once again make the disclaimer - my interpretation of these quotes is my own, and my opinions are my own...)

Going back over my original list, I thought it would be good to add quotes for each assertion. So here goes:

1. Baha'i understanding of sin stands on the shoulders of prior manifestations. In most cases, there are not "definitions" of sin - there is an assumption that everyone already knows what we are talking about. I think this is significant, given Baha'u'llah's role in reconciling the various religions.

And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is that religion is a mighty bulwark. If the edifice of religion shakes and totters, commotion and chaos will ensue and the order of things will be utterly upset, for in the world of mankind there are two safeguards that protect man from wrongdoing. One is the law which punishes the criminal; but the law prevents only the manifest crime and not the concealed sin; whereas the ideal safeguard, namely, the religion of God, prevents both the manifest and the concealed crime, trains man, educates morals, compels the adoption of virtues and is the all-inclusive power which guarantees the felicity of the world of mankind. But by religion is meant that which is ascertained by investigation and not that which is based on mere imitation, the foundation of divine religions and not human imitations.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 30)

532. Not only must irreligion and its monstrous offspring, the triple curse that oppresses the soul of mankind in this day, be held responsible for the ills which are so tragically besetting it, but other evils and vices, which are, for the most part, the direct consequences of the "weakening of the pillars of religion," must also be regarded as contributory factors to the manifold guilt of which individuals and nations stand convicted. The signs of moral downfall, consequent to the dethronement of religion and the enthronement of these usurping idols, are too numerous and too patent for even a superficial observer of the state of present-day society to fail to notice. The spread of lawlessness, of drunkenness, of gambling, and of crime; the inordinate love of pleasure, of riches, and other earthly vanities; the laxity in morals, revealing itself in the irresponsible attitude towards marriage, in the weakening of parental control, in the rising tide of divorce, in the deterioration in the standard of literature and of the press, and in the advocacy of theories that are the very negation of purity, of morality and chastity -- these evidences of moral decadence, invading both the East and the West, permeating every stratum of society, and instilling their poison in its members of both sexes, young and old alike, blacken still further the scroll upon which are inscribed the manifold transgressions of an unrepentant humanity.

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 237)

2. Baha'i understanding of sin is (as stated) "going against God's will"

Say: Commit not, O people, that which will bring shame upon you or dishonor the Cause of God in the eyes of men, and be not of the mischief-makers. Approach not the things which your minds condemn. Eschew all manner of wickedness, for such things are forbidden unto you in the Book which none touch except such as God hath cleansed from every taint of guilt, and numbered among the purified.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 277)

3. Baha'i understanding of sin is subservience to our physical natures. My understanding here is that we have physical natures that are required to move us forward in THIS life, but when we live attached to these physical natures, we are in sin. (Reference to Buddhist detachment, in my opinion)

This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions)

4. The worst sin that is pardonable is backbiting - this supports the thrust of this dispensation toward unity. To think charitably of others, even to the point of avoiding any kind of backbiting is the call of the day.

If ye become aware of a sin committed by another, conceal it, that God may conceal your own sin. He, verily, is the Concealer, the Lord of grace abounding. O ye rich ones on earth! If ye encounter one who is poor, treat him not disdainfully. Reflect upon that whereof ye were created. Every one of you was created of a sorry germ. It behoveth you to observe truthfulness, whereby your temples shall be adorned, your names uplifted, your stations exalted amidst men, and a mighty recompense assured for you before God.

(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts)

"As regards backbiting, i.e. discussing the faults of others in their absence, the teachings are very emphatic. In a Tablet to an American friend the Master wrote: 'The worst human quality and the most great sin is backbiting, more especially when it emanates from the tongues of the believers of God. If some means were devised so that the doors of backbiting were shut eternally and each one of the believers unsealed his lips in praise of others, then the Teachings of His Holiness Bahá'u'lláh would spread, the hearts be illumined, the spirits glorified, and the human world would attain to everlasting felicity.' (Quoted in Star of West, Vol. IV. p. 192) Bahá'u'lláh says in Hidden Words; 'Breathe not the sins of others so long as thou art a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command ACCURSED ARE THOU.' The condemnation of backbiting could hardly be couched in stronger language than in these passages, and it is obviously one of the foremost obligations for Bahá'ís to set their faces against this practice. Even if what is said against another person be true, the mentioning of his faults to others still comes under the category of backbiting, and is forbidden."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 88)

5. The UNPARDONABLE sin is failure to educate children. In context I think this means keeping a child back from education, but it can be interpretted far more broadly than that. This particular sin supports the great Baha'i philosophy that religion is the great educator of humanity, and that God has done us the greatest good by perpetuating revelation to us. It also supports the Baha'i idea that sin ultimately is the result of ignorance.

484. Failure to Educate Child is an Unpardonable Sin

"This is a sin unpardonable, for they have made that poor babe a wanderer in the Sahara of ignorance, unfortunate and tormented: to remain during a lifetime a captive of ignorance and pride, negligent and without discernment. Verily, if that babe depart from this world at the age of infancy, it is sweeter and better. In this sense, death is better than life; deprivation than salvation; non-existence lovelier than existence; the grave better than the palace; the narrow, dingy tomb better than the spacious, regal home; for in the sight of mankind that child is abased and degraded and in the sight of God weak and defective. In gatherings it is ashamed and humiliated and in the arena of examination subdued and defeated by young and old. What a mistake is this! What an everlasting humiliation!"

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 145)
 
So, I wanted to put some textual support around the ideas I originally stated, and then (FINALLY!) comment on what I took from this exercise. To wit:I believe that there are two classes of sin from a Bahá'i perspective. The one pertains to morality on a personal level, personal weaknesses deriving from the physical natures of human beings. These sins have specific consequence of under-developing us for our journey in the next world, unless we use them to learn from, to overcome our lower natures. (And that, I believe, includes overcoming sinful habits and inclinations.)



Man must walk in many paths and be subjected to various processes in his evolution upward. Physically he is not born in full stature but passes through consecutive stages of foetus, infant, childhood, youth, maturity and old age. Suppose he had the power to remain young throughout his life. He then would not understand the meaning of old age and could not believe it existed. If he could not realize the condition of old age he would not know that he was young. He would not know the difference between young and old without experiencing the old. Unless you have passed through the state of infancy how would you know this was an infant beside you? If there was no wrong how would you recognize the right? If it were not for sin how would you appreciate virtue? If evil deeds were unknown how could you commend good actions? If sickness did not exist how would you understand health? Evil is non-existent; it is the absence of good; sickness is the loss of health; poverty the lack of riches. When wealth disappears you are poor; you look within the treasure box but find nothing there. Without knowledge there is ignorance; therefore ignorance is simply the lack of knowledge. Death is the absence of life. Therefore on the one hand we have existence; on the other, nonexistence, negation or absence of existence.



Briefly; the journey of the soul is necessary. The pathway of life is the road which leads to divine knowledge and attainment. Without training and guidance the soul could never progress beyond the conditions of its lower nature which is ignorant and defective.



(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity)



The second class of sin pertains to hindering the Cause of God for this dispensation. So, while it seems to me to be far worse to be a drunkard, or other addict, or a thief… in this dispensation, these things are personal to my soul, and my well being, whereas, what I would have considered rather minor (backbiting) is considered "the most great sin" because of the harm it does to the promotion of unity – which is our purpose in this dispensation. Further – the first class of sin can be escalated into the second class if they are flagrantly and publicly carried out – because this act discredits the Faith of God – thereby hindering others who might be otherwise attracted to the Faith, and in some ways, dimming the light of the Faith. Given the Bahá'i perspective that Baha’u’llah comes to reaffirm the role of religion in human society – that religion is one, and that divine revelation has always served to renew, uplift and advance humanity – and given that this understanding is critical to this dispensation – discrediting the Faith of God in this time carries grave consequence of working against the Cause of God to elevate humanity (including those outside the Faith.)



1588. Today it is a Greater Responsibility to Reject the Manifestation



"It is certainly a much greater responsibility to reject the Manifestation in this day than it was in the past Dispensations, inasmuch as man, and indeed humanity as a whole, have been endowed with a greater measure of spiritual receptivity than ever before, and consequently it would be a much graver sin to repudiate the revealed Truth now than it would have been the case in by-gone ages and centuries."



(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 480)



Say: Commit not, O people, that which will bring shame upon you or dishonor the Cause of God in the eyes of men, and be not of the mischief-makers. Approach not the things which your minds condemn. Eschew all manner of wickedness, for such things are forbidden unto you in the Book which none touch except such as God hath cleansed from every taint of guilt, and numbered among the purified.



(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 277)



At one extreme is the case of a believer who is no longer able to rectify the wrong he has committed -- for example when he has lost his voting rights for marrying without parental consent and the parents have since died -- in such a case the factor of repentance is particularly important. At the other extreme is the case of a believer who has been deprived of his voting rights because the Assembly is convinced by the evidence that he was guilty of the offense, but who maintains that, in spite of all appearances to the contrary, he is innocent. There is no requirement that such a believer admit guilt before the voting rights can be restored. The believer must, however, comply with the Assembly's instructions as to his behavior. In between these extremes are many cases where the very rectifying of the error can be held to constitute repentance



(Compilations, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities)



On another board, a member asked about the question of guilt – I was hoping he’d show up in this thread again to talk more about it. But my observation is that Baha’is are striving toward such a great love of God that they are totally shamed and dismayed when they do anything that is contrary to His Will – that is our primary enforcement in the first case of sin. That’s a pretty lofty station – one which I pray to attain!



That’s it – thanks for reading so long a post! I can’t believe it took me this long to come back to this topic, but it took a little while for the ideas to germinate to the point where I could write them. As always – this is just my understanding – I welcome the comments of others!



With sisterly love,



HM07
 
So...here's an interesting question, if it's not too much of a distration - what is the Baha'i perspective on homosexuality? Is there a clear condemnation of the person, or the practice, or unambiguous support for homosexuals? While the issue is up elsewhere. :)
 
There is no condemnation of people in the faith. Homosexual acts are sinful - in fact there is no legitimate expression of sexuality outside of the marriage bond of a husband and a wife.

Two quotes to share:

1225. The Question Should Not be if a Practicing Homosexual Can be a Bahá'í, But as Such Can He Overcome His Problem Through The Teachings
"Bahá'í teachings on sexual morality center on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Thus Bahá'í Law restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.
"Thus, it should not be so much a matter of whether a practicing homosexual can be a Bahá'í as whether, having become a Bahá'í, the homosexual can overcome his problem through knowledge of the teachings and reliance on Bahá'u'lláh.
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 365)


"While recognizing the Divine origin and force of the sex impulse in man, religion teaches that it must be controlled, and Bahá'u'lláh's Law confines its expression to the marriage relationship. The unmarried homosexual is therefore in the same position as anyone else who does not marry. The Law of God requires them to practise chastity.
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 366)

(and since the issue is current - Baha'is recognize marriage as being exclusively between a man and a woman.)
 
Just curious, Handmaiden07 (aka Tamara)...
What does the Bahá'í Faith say about sleeping with another woman's husband, then allowing him to move in with you, leaving his wife and children? How will you get forgiveness of your sins?
 
JesusIsLord said:
Just curious, Handmaiden07 (aka Tamara)...
What does the Bahá'í Faith say about sleeping with another woman's husband, then allowing him to move in with you, leaving his wife and children? How will you get forgiveness of your sins?

Infidelity is possible cause for divorce.

Baha`i divorce requires a year of separation during which both parties live apart and do not undertake romantic search for another partner.

If a Baha`i breaks chastity with another, then while the Year of Patience is underway moves in with someone to whom he cannot yet be married, then that individual can lose their administrative rights.

If the individual in your question was not married when she took up with another man, and lived with him without their own marriage that is also a violation of chastity and could result in loss of administrative rights.

What's the disgruntle between you and handmaiden 07?

Regards,
Scott
 
Sounds like there could be some personal issues here...

But aside from administrative sanctions of infidelity, I think also "forgiveness of your sins" may be a phrase that's commonly used among Christians.

In Baha'i Faith God can forgive "sins":

A prayer revealed by Baha'u'llah has:

"0 Lord, forgive me my sins and my transgressions and all that my hands have committed. Thou, verily, art the Mighty, the Generous."

The Bab also revealed:

"If ye believe in the one True God, follow Me, this Most Great Remembrance of God sent forth by your Lord, that He may graciously forgive you your sins. Verily He is forgiving and compassionate toward the concourse of the faithful."

And Abdul-Baha:

"O Lord, Thou possessor of infinite mercy ! O Lord of forgiveness and pardon ! Forgive our sins, pardon our shortcomings, and cause us to turn to the kingdom of Thy clemency, invoking the kingdom of might and power, humble at Thy shrine and submissive before the glory of Thine evidences."

`Abdu'l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace p. 276.
 
What does "loss of administrative rights" actually mean?

Is this related to the previous politics discussion, where the member is not allowed to take part in general Baha'i activities?
 
I said:
What does "loss of administrative rights" actually mean?

Is this related to the previous politics discussion, where the member is not allowed to take part in general Baha'i activities?

Loss of administrative rights means a person is not a Baha'i in good standing and cannot particapate in Baha'i elections or be elected for any office. It's not a "political issue".

When one applies to be a Baha'i there are certain expectations which are explained on first becoming a Baha'i such as being chaste in one's relationships, not drinking alcohol or gambling.

What can occur is that a person has broken a law such as maybe being unfaithful in their marriage or maybe they were drinking alcohol or using drugs, or gambling and after extensive consultation with their Local Assembly and in spite of services being offered they are still set in their pattern of behaviour, the Local Assembly can recommend to the National Assiembly that their adminiistrative rights be suspended. The National Assembly can review the issue..and decide on this, whether or not to suspend their administrative rights.

After this sanction occurs the person is still considered a Baha'i and can attend Holy Day events... They are given to understand that should they be able to control their behaviour they can apply to have their administrative rights restored.

For a more complete explanation see:

http://bahai-library.com/uhj/sanctions.html

- Art
 
I said:
What does "loss of administrative rights" actually mean?

Is this related to the previous politics discussion, where the member is not allowed to take part in general Baha'i activities?

Hi, again, Brian!

There's rather more to it than was just described.

If an individual has lost Baha'i administrative rights, he or she is free to attend all Baha'i meetings open to the public (such as firesides, holy-day celebrations, etc.).

But the following are prohibited:

- voting in Baha'i elections,
- being elected to any Baha'i administrative position,
- attending the Nineteen-day Feast (the primary internal Baha'i meeting),
- giving to the Baha'i Funds,
- attending the annual Baha'i Convention or any other Baha'i-only meeting, and
- (I THINK but am not sure of this one offhand) having a Baha'i wedding. (And Baha'is may not marry without a Baha'i wedding.)

Other Baha'is and the individual may continue to associate freely, and no stigma is placed on such friendships.

The restrictions affecting administrative rights are thus indeed significant, but the purpose is to encourage the individual to correct the cause of the situation and be restored to full membership....

Regards,

Bruce
 
or maybe they were drinking alcohol or using drugs, or gambling
I never realized the bahai had so many rules...very interesting. I understand respecting the body temple and the deliterious affects that are possible by abuse of the above substances...but do the bahai take the same stand to all substance abuse? Like obesity? Thrill seekers? When it comes to hang gliding, parachuting, many sports...you dramatically increase your risk of early death or disability...same with over eating...I'm just wondering.

I've accumulated the concept that; 'We are not punished for our sins, but by them.' seems it fits.
 
wil said:
I never realized the bahai had so many rules...very interesting. I understand respecting the body temple and the deliterious affects that are possible by abuse of the above substances...but do the bahai take the same stand to all substance abuse? Like obesity? Thrill seekers? When it comes to hang gliding, parachuting, many sports...you dramatically increase your risk of early death or disability...same with over eating...I'm just wondering.

I've accumulated the concept that; 'We are not punished for our sins, but by them.' seems it fits.

Hi Wil... Actually in our view there are not so many rules.... We have a remarkably thin "book of rules" called the Kitab-i-Aqdas that contains most everything and compared to most legal contracts you sign today is very minimal.

Some time when you purchase a car or furniture on time or are operated on and they want you to sign that you've read and understand it ...actually read all the fine print. You might be surprised as will everyone around you. You don't even have to go that far...just read the terms of service to participate in some internet communities... and it'll take your breath away!

As to substance abuse... Baha'is don't drink alcohol or use drugs not prescribed by a physician. So that's pretty straight forward.

There are no diet restrictions in our Faith.

Nor is Hang Gliding forbidden in case you wondered...

- Art
 
Just read the Kitab-i-Aqdas...more than enough rules for me. No shaving of head or growing hair beyond the earlobe...

I still like to use Ocean though....
 
there are other paradigms to examine sin with than legalisms, without discounting them. For example there is an ecological sense of sinning - "...sinfulness (is) a cause for the exercise of Thy forgiveness.() ..."

One cannot mistake rotting for growth, and yet little makes for great growth material better than compost, when rotting has ripened, as it were.

There are also matters of making amends, doing works in the name of, intercession....
 
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