Rome in transition

Discussion in 'Graeco-Roman' started by juantoo3, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    The 'What is truth' phrase I had thought came from Pilate's speech in John. It never appears in the synoptic gospels, by-the-way. By 'sacred' I am talking about Greater Truths, such as Godel's theorem. It could be something secular, too. A greater truth is timeless and sometimes even independent of context, like 2+2=4. Christianity has likely always held these truths on a truth scale, and a lesser truth is 'Less important' than a greater truth. An evidential verse to support this point of view: I Cor 13:8-9 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will
    cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
    (I'll bet verses like this one figure prominently in the Koran.)


    I have been and sometimes still am one of those people. They cannot accept that sometimes art (or a lie) is required to teach truths, mainly tragic ones. This is an important life lesson, a greater truth. A child learns morals in an egg of false security -- then they hatch when they are fully formed and not one second before. A child, however sweet, must learn to compete. When people refuse to accept this, they are like chickens that dip their own eggs in wax thinking to preserve them. The result is oxygen-starved chicks. I do not say parent's shouldn't value truth but that they must love it all the more.

    Exactly. I think he is stubbornly saying that unless you are a believer, they cannot teach you their truth in a way that would make it accessible to you. It is in their liturgy, mysticism etc. and told in that language. "Livergoods esoterism" or one of those.

    I don't think I disagree. I think unauthentic may not be an appropriate thing to call a culture. I guess one comparison could be Ethiopia vs Liberia, where one is ancient and one is young and started on purpose. Both value their origins.

    I refer to that precedence of nature called 'Childhood'. Some things are best learned as a child. Mark 10:15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." Do you disagree with this? In other words, do you regret having been born a child instead of being born fully-grown & handsome? It doesn't matter whether you regret it, and you know your kids are going to get the same raw deal. That's just the way it is!

    I surely don't think you're a dumb-ass king! Also, it would not really be possible for you (or me) to denigrate or truly dismantle Christianity. Your voice is very, very tiny in a big, big world. It doesn't really matter what you or I do except on a very, very small scale.
    I hope you find both the sacred and the unsacred truths, and me too. I have a feeling that they are much better even than those things that we would like. I don't know. Maybe we just need to get out more.

    Very interesting. Does this not work for a historically 'Catholic' church? I am asking you based upon your research. According to you the Nicenes were willing to co-exist with the Arians. That sounds Catholic. Is it that the Arians couldn't stand the Nicenes perhaps, or is it that the Nicenes couldn't stand the Arians?

    Well, you know my theory about Jesus. Anyway, Constantine may have set some rules but assuming that people were already 'Catholic' -- as in counting love as being more important than knowledge -- then Constantine really could not have changed much in the short term as the church culture would have been very springy. Like a big waterbed. Constantine's dark influence would not have been the 'Doctrine' itself but the fact that he tried to end the ability to disagree with it. Seems consistent with the 100 yr coexistence between the Arians & Nicenes, too.

    Let not your heart be troubled! One of the pitfalls of working with such amazing materials has always been the temptation to think you are Napoleon or some kind of wizard. The sheer magnitude of everything literally is mentally jarring, however nothing we are discussing right now is new or previously unknown. It is not a conspiracy but an open story. It isn't anything that hasn't been published before or that wont be published again. "Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life."(Proverbs 13:12)

    Baby steps!
     
  2. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Quote Juan:


    Quote BB:
    BB, you jumped through this topic pretty quickly, but it is actually one of the real kickers. It seems that Jesus rejected the Oral Torah, and that, to my understanding was one of the main reasons for the events which followed.

    There was another interesting story that I read, I cannot piece together the details right now, about the events that led up to the destruction of the Second Temple. Apparently, one of the Roman leaders was insulted at a dinner and initated the destruction out of a sort of revenge. Maybe you know the story better than I ?
     
  3. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    you really need to read this book: James Kugel - How to Read the Bible - i had the privilege of sharing a duvet with prof kugel last winter and am just finishing the book. it is exactly what you need to address the point you're at.

    not if the law of conservation of energy holds true for spiritual energy like the soul.

    i suppose if a soul is constituted in such a way as to allow the different "roots" to be part of different people's souls during different transmigrations, in the "world to come" one might speculate that the immediacy of a five-dimensional space would allow you similarly to interact with all transmigrations at once, or indeed if you yourself were functioning in five-dimensional space, you would also be subject to this and have interactions in five-dimensions, so not only would you be talking to rabbi aqiba, but he would be talking to the soul-roots he recognised from his own time, simultaneously. it's a bit of a headfeck, it has to be said.

    indeed - we are subject to the vagaries of the fourth dimension, but we can affect the others.

    have a look at the procedure for yom kippur in mishnah tractate "yoma", which is all about what happened in the Temple that day. you will find from any commentary from the gemara to the magen avraham (which is in the standard artscroll books) that by the time the mishnah itself was written, it was the opinion of the sages that even the high priest himself could not be relied upon to know the correct hebrew or the procedures, so they had to go through and document the process. if you don't have a copy of the mishnah, i recommend the neusner translation.

    try geza vermes' work like "jesus the jew" or "jesus in his jewish context".

    "ben adam" (son of man) has been treated the same way, at the time it just meant something like "muggins here".

    well, put it this way, the procedure described is certainly not correct for the full court of seventy-one which was the only one that had the power to try capital offences.

    i think you *really* need to read james kugel. i certainly would disagree strongly with thomas on this point, i think.

    no, i don't think so. remember, that at this point, the Oral Law had not been *canonised*, it didn't start getting written down until the mid-C2nd, by which time the correct opinions had been established for most of the decisions made in the early tannaitic era, which is when jesus was around the place. put it this way, he might have rejected some decisions of the oral law, but he would have been unlikely to have rejected it wholesale, let alone the principle of having one at all. much of his reported speech can be taken as methodologically part of the oral process - it's just that some of his major positions differed from the position of the majority of the sages, whereas where he didn't differ from them, it was not a point of issue and therefore it could probably be safely assumed that he, for example, kept most of the 39 avot melakhot (categories of sabbath work) whereas he obviously disagreed with a couple of them, like perhaps the ones involved in healing and picking corn. on the other hand if you read the parable of the "good samaritan" in light of the halakhic principle of the "met mitzvah" (someone who has no close relatives to look after his dead body) it can easily be argued that he is lambasting his interlocutors for their ignorance of this part of the law compared to a despised, ignorant samaritan who gets it better than they do.

    the only two stories i can remember are the one about sinat hinam (causeless hatred) about getting kamtza and bar kamtza mixed up - and the "what have the romans ever done for us" argument which led to r. shimon bar yohai hiding in the cave. that ought to be able to help you to find it...

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  4. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    BB, this was not my quote, oh well, I guess as long as it was not profane it doesn't matter :) .


     
  5. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Ouch! Hate it when that happens! he he. By-th-way its not related to the thread but I wonder if you'd tell me what Avi 1223 means? You don't have to tell me but its driving me crazy. It is like a license plate, and those are so cruel. Like when you drive through traffic and see the same license plates everyday but can't figure them out?
     
  6. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Sure, when I registered my name I wanted Avi, which is short for Avraham. The 1223 doesn't mean anything. It is not a secret code or anything like that :eek:. Maybe at some point I will change it, but it hasn't seemed too urgent :) . I have this vague memory that when I originally signed in as Avi the website software prompted me for additional characterers (so I guess it knew I had more character :rolleyes:). !! Is there a minimum number of characters for a name ?
     
  7. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    :( no...secret code? How did you know I wanted a secret code? I've never heard the short name for Abraham, so thats sort of like a code. Avi is a cool codename.

    How about 'Avi' followed by a secret code? That would be even better. How about the coordinates to a restaurant?

    Personally I believe that the software could have guessed Abraham from Avi if Google provided a script for it. Their advert targeting is starting to show real intelligence. Some not so good, but some good guesses.
     
  8. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    By the way Dream, your name and Avatar are cool too. I just noticed that you have a secret code inside the bubble in your gum bubble, but I cannot read it. If it is subliminal maybe my mind knows what it says, and I just don't know it yet.

    Now come to think of it I do have a craving for some bubble gum :D .
     
  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Wow! Some awesome answers! Thanks for the pointer to the book, BB, I'll have to chase that one down.

    I'll probably be a couple of days before I can reply properly, please be patient with me.
     
  10. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Yes, that is the one, what an amazing story. I had forgotten that it is Talmudic. Thanks.
     
  11. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Oh, its the copyright notice. I sometimes borrow things since my avatar is non-profit. Joseph was a very impressive Bible figure, who probably I would have found very annoying. I had a best friend like him once when I was just getting out of high school. We had split an apartment, and he was always fastidious and neat, on time, etc. His schedule was always getting in the way of my non-schedule.
     
  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    An update on the stone. Seems it is called "Gabriel's Revelation." It is considered a Dead Sea Scroll in stone, it is ink on stone which makes it somewhat unusual, but the weight of the scholars looking at it to this point seems to indicate it is authentic, dated to late in the first century BC.

    DSS conference (60 year anniversary):

    The Dead Sea Scrolls and Contemporary Culture

    The Dead Sea Scrolls and Contemporary Culture

    wiki:
    Gabriel's Revelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Dead Sea Scroll in stone, Biblical Archeology Review
    A New Dead Sea Scroll in Stone? | Daily Bible and Archaeology News

    The Messiah Son of Joseph - “Gabriel’s Revelation” and the birth of a new messianic model
    By Israel Knohl, Biblical Archeology Review
    The Messiah Son of Joseph | Biblical Archaeology Review | Bible History Articles

    There are more references to chase out, but it seems the dominant consensus is that this stone is real, and what it tells us of a Messianic tradition in pre-Christian Judaism...including and especially in my opinion, a resurrection after three days in the tomb... is not to be dismissed lightly. This may be an important link in filling the gaps between pre- and post-Nicaean Christianity.
     
  13. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Thanks for the update.
    I want to know why someone is suggesting there were 2 messiahs in the 3-day resurrection lineage, so I will perhaps look into that at some point. I've not been able to connect to the ftp site to get Prof. Knohl's paper. I was able to find Victor Sasson's blog. Boy, is that guy skeptical about Christian scholars linking Hebrew scriptures to Christianity. Ok, but that is not what we are doing, plus I'm not a scholar. Reading his bloggyblog I'm like "Ok, ok I get that you're skeptical!" Now, getting on with the subject at hand, we were discussing Rome in transition and what this stone tablet has to do with where Christianity comes from. He says:
    Now that is a very good point. Who in heck would right a religious tablet about a personal conflict? (Simon the Zealot -- I doubt it.) Consider that perhaps this stele is not necessarily talking about a particular person as a messiah but has to do with an 'Apocalyptic national event' like Sasson says in his blog. I disagree with his "Western nations’ acceptance of Yeshu as a messiah has only proved to be a source of wars, torture, slaughter, inquisitions, and ethnic cleansing among Christian nations themselves." That all depends, but with his scholarly opinion I do agree about the stone, because its in line with my personal theory about Christianity's beginnings & Rome etc. I think this is not about Simon but about the nation.
     
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Hey Dream! Looks like you beat me to the punch, I'm still sorting through this stuff.

    Here is a link to the English translation:
    http://www.bib-arch.org/news/dssinstone_english.pdf

    I know religious texts can be vague, but I'm left wondering where they get a resurrection out of the text?
     
  15. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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  16. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Medieval Sourcebook: Pliny on the Christians
     
  17. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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  18. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Brief on the Arthurian legend:

    In Search of Myths &amp Heroes . King Arthur | PBS

    also this:

    Historical basis for King Arthur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    particularly:

     

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