g?d evolves!

_Z_

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g?d evolves!

does god evolve? where everything in the universe and the universe itself changes, why wouldn’t its intelligence and being? in theory if there is a ‘god’ then it is the intelligence of the universe, perhaps the entire set of communications [between events, potentiality and other mechanisms of existence e.g. laws, dimensions, time etc] adds up to some kind of intelligence.

i don’t know if it is like the brain or anything we would normally call intelligence [yet the brain is form by 'it'], yet what it is by any name or description something that is directly relative to physical existence as we would normally see it ~ hence what we have is something that must mutate according to changes that occur in existence. as the universe evolves so must its ‘intelligence’ as it is directly relevant and indeed inherent within it.

so does g?d change as existence changes and hence evolves just like anything else?

no matter how wise or intelligent g?d is always learning, there never comes a point where omniscience is reached because all the ingredients of that are never arrived at. that is to say; you can only have knowledge of something once it has occurred yet the point where all things have occurred never arrives, hence all knowledge is never arrived at.

the hands that mould the clay

to visualise evolution in an engineered and perhaps intelligent universe, we may see evolution from a duel perspective; we have a ball of clay, it may be shaped in any way, either from the outside [the hands that mould it] or internally as with our present understanding of evolution. i think it works mainly from the inside as the ball of clay is alive/self animating. in either case it can only be shaped relative to its environment and in steps, you can’t jump to humans form nothing as you have to build what that form is made from with the materials available at the time.

to this we may perhaps add the idea that, even when we have an immensely intelligent universe it can only act as a guiding presence and lawmaker at most. creatures react to nature as an entity as well as to individual aspects of it i.e. the immediate environment. the very presence of intelligence is that which drives and builds the tree of evolution. we may go on to say that even law and pattern/math are constructs of both intelligent operation and self creation, a law is made between the interaction of given forms, from energy and dimension to the more macroscopic shapes of existence.

in all cases and from all perspectives, nature finds shape. intelligence, mindfulness and form are results of that, not makers of it. this may seam contradicting as we may say that neither come first nature nor intelligence, both are present throughout. so what is to say one take precedence over the other, well my point is that they don’t and that is exactly why neither dictate to one another! so g?d just lets things occur naturally knowing that things take shape by intelligent mannerisms as described in science and philosophy, that there is an inherent design to how things can only take shape, things are as they are because that is the way nature grows.

let it be
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exploration...

an interesting question for me is that there are two fundamental philosophical properties of existence, which are very relevant to the intelligent universe as seen on a grander scale; a) there is no beginning, and b) infinite potentiality. if existence is eternal [which it must be] then it goes beyond the life cycle of our universe and into the previous and next universes. at some point there would be no events or a skeleton of minimal universal events e.g. the dimensions that transcend one universe and go into the next. so in the the greater cycle intelligence is minimal at this time perhaps even non existent.

at that time the entity of truth to which that intelligence belongs would be in a kind of deep sleep, yet it is dreaming ~ the soup of infinite potentiality is stirring up blending with what has gone before, the result of that cycle of the universe. the next universe just like any life cycle is the result of the previous. so g?d would change dramatically and evolve which each entire universe cycle and the cycles therein!

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more exploration...


do all incarnations follow the same rules, is one incarnation the same in essence as a given other? in other words if nature transcends its life cycles on a universal scale then do we also reincarnate by the same universal properties. do we and everything else sleep, dream then become re-manifest in form? there would thence be an ‘it’ that is carried over, the ‘you’ and its essence like a living mass of the results of events, remains and continues.
 
You are right Alex, after all 'evolve' does not actually infer progress, only change.
 
In mans mind, it seems god evolves...

well as tao says, evolve only means change he could remain incredible wise and intelligent throughout.
if he is involved in the process of existence then he changes, yet here we are talking as if god is extraneous to existence, whereas i am saying there is nothing outside of existence and that g?d is an internal intellect within existence, a truly living god.

if we say god is outside then he has no effect nor interaction whatsoever. then we would have to define a duel existence in some way, when we already have a reality that includes infinity and is eternal.

so what would an external god be; more that infinite and eternal? that would be literally impossible.

whats wrong with a natural god? :)
 
I guess physical change? It changes to be what it needs to be, perhaps... No idea, I've never met it..... But looking at the Creator from world religions, god evolves in mans mind, to more change, his rules, his laws, his will, his meaning. Even in the same groups of religion (Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, so ooooon.) This had to all come from one source? surley.... Maybe there is some truth in these religions accounts of who/what/why about their god(s)?
 
This had to all come from one source? surley.... Maybe there is some truth in these religions accounts of who/what/why about their god(s)?

indeed god has changed in religion too, perhaps man sees part of it then another part some of which contradicts the former. i think we need to try to look beyond our perceptions of it and to forulate ideas about what the whole god would be like ~ if we can call it a god at all. i prefer to call it intelligent nature as this makes it more present and evident.
 
. i prefer to call it intelligent nature as this makes it more present and evident.


lol Don't say that while Tao is around! Will upset him!

I don't call it a he either, I call it an it lol... So I guess yeah the Creator could evolve to be what it needs to be as previously mentioned, but my humble mind couldn't begin to give examples of how it changes...

But, by being intelligent nature.... For example. *looks out his window* I see trees, many trees... Are they god evolving?
 
well as tao says, evolve only means change he could remain incredible wise and intelligent throughout.
if he is involved in the process of existence then he changes, yet here we are talking as if god is extraneous to existence, whereas i am saying there is nothing outside of existence and that g?d is an internal intellect within existence, a truly living god.

if we say god is outside then he has no effect nor interaction whatsoever. then we would have to define a duel existence in some way, when we already have a reality that includes infinity and is eternal.

so what would an external god be; more that infinite and eternal? that would be literally impossible.

whats wrong with a natural god? :)

Sorry but without invoking supernatural causation, for which there is zero evidence, an internal manifestation of God would be visible for all to see. Every purported expression of God on someone's life I have ever heard or read about is about as likely to float in the face of scrutiny as a lead balloon is like to reach the stratosphere. The more time goes by here at CR, the more I listen to the crass arguments, the shirking of answering any real questions and the more I relate that all to my life experience the more alienated I find myself here. It is all fiddling while Rome burns. It is the moral equivalent of Marie Antoinette asking why don't the peasants eat cake if there is no bread. It is pseudo-intellectual masturbation. And its high time I bowed out.

tao
 
Tao, the only thing I would say is, this is an interfaith forum... So there are going to be many varying views on basically every subject under the sun. So no you're not alienated... You know... In the dictionary lol... Alienated... one of the two meanings... "caused to be unloved." I love ya ;) The second meaning? Socially disorientated... That is gonna happen bro, this is interfaith I find many people here mind blowing... Some insane others baffling.... But it is a place to share opinions not a place that aims to make everyone hold the same opinion.... Just wanted to say that ;\
 
Depending on one's definition of G!d, G!d does or does not change. Unless there is an agreed upon definition of G!d being used as the basis for the discussion it's hard to discuss except for each individual to say, "For me..." It doesn't leave a lot of room for direct conversation.

What definition of G!d are you asserting for this discussion? Please be as clear as possible. Please be mindful of words that add ambiguity.
 
But, by being intelligent nature.... For example. *looks out his window* I see trees, many trees... Are they god evolving?

i would say so yes, and look further and encompass the singularity/universe.

I call it an it lol... So I guess yeah the Creator could evolve to be what it needs to be as previously mentioned, but my humble mind couldn’t begin to give examples of how it changes...

i call it officially an ‘it’ too lols. ‘it’ for me is the universal integer of philosophy. i would see an eternal sameness and an externalised evolution, ‘it’ changes into whatever occurs. let us not forget ‘ti’ ti is the opposite of it ~ its nemesis or its lover, wherever there is an it there is a ti lols.
tao

Sorry but without invoking supernatural causation, for which there is zero evidence, an internal manifestation of God would be visible for all to see.

it is! from inside your innermost self to the world around you! nature is its body ~ as i see it. causation is a part of its workings, it is along with potentiality the connections between events, and hence part of the intelligent framework. we can see things as physics or we can see things as communications between things.

The more time goes by here at CR, the more I listen to the crass arguments, the shirking of answering any real questions and the more I relate that all to my life experience the more alienated I find myself here.
hmm true religion does make one feel like your banging one head against the wall, like nothing is ever answered.

perhaps try here for a change of scene... there are some there on your level i think.

ILovePhilosophy.com • Index page

It is all fiddling while Rome burns.

i wonder the same mate, like we could find all the answers while the world is ending and hence they make no difference. or did you mean something else?
hmm there are very few people who will go with you to find answers! we must all remember that we may not be entirely correct, yet i understand what you are saying about people not being willing to recognise truth when it is put in front of the. i hope i have not appeared so as i do listen and have learned much from what you say.

perhaps many others do too! what we see are replies trying to uphold a worldveiw or an idea, but that doesn’t mean people are not listening or taking in what is being said. although 85% of the time it does lols.
 
dauer

it doesn’t depend on our definitions at all, there are only two options; god = nature, the universe reality, or god is extraneous to that.

so here i am saying g?d is literally the intelligent universe, and that this intelligence is fundamentally a part of physical existence [and eternity]. where physics and metaphysics are turned on their heads and we say that physical things are themselves metaphoric to a truth that is naked and not in a metaphor.

perhaps it is better not to use the term god at all, what i mean is intelligent nature on a omniversal scale.
i cannot imagine where that would leave any given thing extraneous to that?
 
I would say by your definition then yes it evolves constantly... It is our DNA it is the chlorophyll that runs through these trees, it is the life source, and it can devlop and mutate and change to be what it needs to be....

It is..... :)
 
alex p

indeed. perhaps it has seen and heard it all before, perhaps on a given planet somewhere out there [or in a previous universe or a billion universes ago] these discussion happened a million years ago and hence in the greater scheme of things are irrelevant.

yet in this part of it it is still all very relevant. i do often see time as like a wave in a greater ocean, so perhaps in contrary to what i just said, we are continually on the current apex of relative thought and change in the universal consciousness. that would though mean that all planets everywhere are at the same level and all previouse thought belongs to a previous era or evolution of existence.

would explain why aliens havent come here yet lols.
 
Z,

You said it doesn't depend on our definitions and then gave two possible definitions. You just refuted yourself. Additionally, I think there are more possibilities than two which could have an effect on whether or not G!d changes. However, if your premise is that G!d is identical with the world and the world itself changes then you've already answered your question.

Please clarify though: do you mean that a universal intelligence is G!d or that an intelligent universe is G!d? If an intelligent universe is G!d then there's no distinction between G!d and the universe. They are the same entity. If G!d is only a universal intelligence then there is room for that intelligence to be transcendent.

-- Dauer
 
dauer

You said it doesn’t depend on our definitions and then gave two possible definitions. You just refuted yourself.

no i meant that reality remains so regardless of our definitions. it is not subjective only our definitions of it are. i have to say what i mean but that isnt itself a declaration of statement, itn is pointing to what is to be understood.

I think there are more possibilities than two which could have an effect on whether or not G!d changes.

indeed; if he thinks or acts in anyway then he changes.

if your premise is that G!d is identical with the world and the world itself changes then you’ve already answered your question.

is identical with eternity and within that the world. ...and yes i answered my own question in that sense i.e. i am right, but the idea is to provoke arguments against that idea as i may be wrong or what is meant may be developed.

do you mean that a universal intelligence is G!d or that an intelligent universe is G!d?

good point! everything is 'it' and the it that is it. is our body us? god is the mind that transcends its form as are we. just as our brains are intelligent but we are not our brain, god is the the being and entity where existence is his brain and body. contrarily we are our bodies and brains and god is his mind and body.

such a dichotomy arises as a construct of our terms we place on things, what we should look at is the naked truth, that there is a universe and it has intellect by way of its mechanisms [connections and communications etc]. the term god is but a distraction. we can then go on to ask [as i posited in the bottom half of the OP], if the intillect goes beyond the univese in its present incanation. if it relative to the universe as its direct intellect, and reality goes beyond this universe, then god must also transcend the universe.
‘universal’ is greater than ‘universe’!

seattlegal
Doesn’t evolve mean to unfold, or to unroll?

or to reveal! for me it just means; to change to a more advanced state relative to an environment. however an aware entity with infinite potential and universal intelligence, would be more advanced than anything it can arrive at in the limited world.
 
it is! from inside your innermost self to the world around you! nature is its body ~ as i see it. causation is a part of its workings, it is along with potentiality the connections between events, and hence part of the intelligent framework. we can see things as physics or we can see things as communications between things.
Even if the Universe, or multiverse for that matter, is a living sentient creature it strikes me as being irrelevant to us. From all the available evidence it does not interfere with us as a species let alone as individuals. I used the analogy elsewhere of bacteria in the gut. We may even be a requirement of something huge we cannot ever hope to understand, but to us, here, now, it is utterly irrelevant. I am suffering CR fatigue I think, I am becoming increasingly irritated by nonsense being passed as wisdom. And it is getting so bad even the word "God" has begun to annoy me. So do not think I do not see what you were saying, I did, it's just that I personally seem to be getting tired of trying to say the same old stuff and listening to others do the same. Its like, where is the point?



i wonder the same mate, like we could find all the answers while the world is ending and hence they make no difference. or did you mean something else?
Not ending, not yet, but being made miserable for 100s of millions of real people. I think we tend to overlook or somehow diminish the true scale of suffering, not just to humanity but to the natural world aswell. Sometimes I truly feel that religion is nothing but a sad veil of self-imposed ignorance that people use to medicate themselves from facing the cowardice their impotent lives. Rather than think and act on real issues, pursue truth and progress, we debate crap. Makes us feel all very smart and knowledgeable and like we really care, but we dont. We just say the same thing over and over like some loop tape. Its like a friggen nightmare.
hmm there are very few people who will go with you to find answers! we must all remember that we may not be entirely correct, yet i understand what you are saying about people not being willing to recognise truth when it is put in front of the. i hope i have not appeared so as i do listen and have learned much from what you say.
Well if you have learned anything from me it is by default not by purpose. For in the end I am the same as the rest of us here. I come, say what I have to say based on that which I have "selected" as truth. But I am doing next to nothing. I am not educated, or smart or anything, but I do know that every day that passes 1000s of people die needlessly while I come here and spraff my speil. And its all pointless, helps no-one, not one bit. But what makes me angry these days is that religion is seen as something good when it patently is not. Rather it is a cancer that afflicts man with terrible injustice and suffering, ignorance and lies. And why? Well increasingly I think it is because people are cowards. Real deep yellow cowards that are afraid to face the horrible truths of the world around them and their own existential selfishness. So they take crap from millenia ago, 2nd hand 3rd rate tales and debate them endlessly. Interpret, reinterpret, swallow, regurgitate and swallow again a bunch on nonsense that has already been established as nonsense by even their own eminent scholars. Debating the minutiae of context of a lie is crass. But for most its better than facing the truth they are doing bugger all to help even their own children. It is cowardice. And I, being here, am as guilty of it as anyone. I'm tired of that. I want to do something that really is not ignoring my deep seated drive to be a truly good and moral man. I cannot see that wasting 5 minutes on discussing religion aids one bit in that regard. This place is a hamsters wheel and its time I jumped off. I do so not with contempt for the people I have met and grown fond of here, whos opinions are almost invariably noble, but because it is all wasted on me. Its not where I am at. And I am tired of listening to it. I came here almost 5 years ago looking for some community that I could develop my knowledge of and spiritual inclinations toward the beauty I see in the world around me. But I am failing to find it here, quite the reverse, if it was not for reading here I would not be the atheist I now call myself. So this place has changed me, it has opened my eyes to the truth, even if it is not the truth one might expect to gain here.

In October I will be leaving the UK for an extended trip, or maybe even permanent move, to southern India. Until then I may well continue to pop in here but I am going to try and avoid doing so, and when I do stay off the religious discussion. It will not be easy as its a fire in my belly to say what I have to say. But hopefully I can muster the reserves of judgement that will be required.

Regards to all


tao
 
Z,

reality may maintain the same regardless of our definitions, but the word G!d is still subject to multiple definitions. It is not possible to discuss the subject of this thread clearly unless we begin with a particular definition.

indeed; if he thinks or acts in anyway then he changes.

or that G!d is separate from the universe and still changes, perhaps without any will at all.

is identical with eternity and within that the world. ...and yes i answered my own question in that sense i.e. i am right, but the idea is to provoke arguments against that idea as i may be wrong or what is meant may be developed.

Well, you are right according to your own definition. That's why I said defining G!d is necessary. According to other people's definitions you are wrong and according to other definitions you are right but for different reasons. If you're going with your definition with G!d then you're right and I don't see much room for discussion. If you're going with a different definition then there may be more room for discussion. I think, however, that once G!d is defined clearly enough there isn't going to be a lot of room to discuss whether or not G!d evolves.

good point! everything is 'it' and the it that is it. is our body us? god is the mind that transcends its form as are we. just as our brains are intelligent but we are not our brain, god is the the being and entity where existence is his brain and body. contrarily we are our bodies and brains and god is his mind and body.

I do not share your views of G!d and was not expanding upon them. I was seeking clarification about whether you mean a universal intelligence or an intelligent universe. By most people's definition I am an agnostic. However, I am glad you were able to draw something of value to you from what I said.

-- Dauer
 
tao

Even if the Universe, or multiverse for that matter, is a living sentient creature it strikes me as being irrelevant to us. From all the available evidence it does not interfere with us as a species let alone as individuals.

the evidence is in the engineered universe which the tree of evolution is of.
it isnt irrelevant if it is interactive, we have but to listen to it telling us we need to change.

i hate to think i am saying all the same old stuff, i thought at least some of it was new or at least new perspectives. bacteria in the gut are part of a greater entity, as are we. but we are more relevant as we make a far greater utility of mind, which in turn makes for more interaction within the whole. i would go so far as to say that humanity is a goal, the human genome is 35% the same as a dafodil but how does evolution know that it can one day be human? the ingineering had to be there in some way to begin with all the way down the line to the very beginning of existence.

Rather than think and act on real issues, pursue truth and progress, we debate crap

i agree we should act on real issues, but we should also understand reality. never before in history have we been in such a good position to understand reality without blinkers on. religion may be out of date but it points to future understandings. when this phaze of human evolution is over your argument will be null and void ~ as we could go back to debating ‘crap’ without the risk of the world being destroyed around us.

what makes me angry these days is that religion is seen as something good when it patently is not
.

well i don’t like religion but it is born out of people wanting to do good and to know what that is. doing right isn’t written in stone, we have to learn it and re-learn it as things change. why does it matter if the world ends and people suffer if we don’t think that is wrong? humanity will grow up because of this phaze.

I came here almost 5 years ago looking for some community that I could develop my knowledge of and spiritual inclinations toward the beauty I see in the world around me. But I am failing to find it here, quite the reverse,

the real world is not always nice and many religious people are middle class and from rich countries with few real problems. there is beauty though and i think we don’t have to go far to find it. our minds are wonders of existence that have taken 16 billion years to be arrived at ~ why not use them in every field!

good luck on your move!

dauer

reality may maintain the same regardless of our definitions, but the word G!d is still subject to multiple definitions. It is not possible to discuss the subject of this thread clearly unless we begin with a particular definition.

my definition then is of a definitionless god. if anyone would care to give us a definition we would soon break it down to either an intelligence of existence or external to it. we just don’t have any evidence of an external god that has an effect, hence i am looking for an internal god of which the effect is self evident ~ perhaps.

I think, however, that once G!d is defined clearly enough there isn’t going to be a lot of room to discuss whether or not G!d evolves.

so god evolves if defined but if not defined then he doesn’t? there appears to be rakes of room for discussion.

I was seeking clarification about whether you mean a universal intelligence or an intelligent universe.

they are both the same thing; how can an intelligent universe not have universal intelligence, and how can universal intelligence not belong to the universe [even if it is also more than that]?

i am interested in what your views of god are? :)
 
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