What would it take?

[17th Angel]

I was just pondering over a cup of coffee... Not sure If I meant this to be a thread of discussion or just a note to think about... (Laymens term I have no idea where I am going with this....)

I know there are many out there already that do have faith in a god, but those that do not, I was thinking of them... And the classic question of what would it take for you to believe?

And millions of ideas seem to rush to our minds (or at least mine) I would want unicorns to come soaring from the skies!!!! Angels to descend with shining white light armor and swords of pure fire. God to peek out from the clouds and let his voice boom over the world! The end to evil! pain! one..... million dollars!!! *puts his small pinky to his mouth and poses*

And then I was thinking... it is interesting you see people make these claims, this large demands of something that would be needed for them to believe, but then can't help but notice in the end for many that did not but now do, it was something on a much smaller scale of things that opens them up to belife.. And what I also find interesting is how it is such a personal level.... I can't recall but someone recently said that god deals with us individually and will reach to us all in different ways. And I kind of understand that now.

I was also thinking about how perhaps somtimes may our lives been endanger, we could of been in serious problems and such.... if this had happened, If i had done this, If I had left the house 2mins earlier... If I hadn't decided to stop and see how my mother was.... And I know life is something truly to be thankful for, but I wonder how aware we are of any guardian/protector/maintance/guide of our lives...

"why doesn't god do this for me!!!! or that for me?"

And hey who knows maybe 30mins before we begin to complain about something if we were not guided perhaps we'd not be alive to complain? Ok I am gonna stop cause I have rambled and I still cannot express what I am trying to lol....

 

[wil]

I think it might not be what but when.

Timing is everything, when the what coincides with the when...ie when the student is ready, things change.

When the student isn't ready, as an anthropomorphic analogy, G!d could sit down to dinner with them, take them on a trip like Enoch and they would explain it away as a hallucination.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Alex,

thank you for the post.

I know there are many out there already that do have faith in a god, but those that do not, I was thinking of them... And the classic question of what would it take for you to believe?

can't say about belief since i don't think beliefs are choices.. that said, the first step for me would be intersubjective evidence of the deity in question.

metta,

~v

 

[mee]

very true , draw close to God and he will draw close to us,

 

[dailogue is the best]

I hope I ve understood what you meant, Alex P.

As a Muslim, I believe that anything happens (except those events which come as a result of my bad doings) is what God permits, and since it is God permits it, there is for sure a wisdom behind it. God is the Wise. Sometimes we learn from our sufferings, and spiritually advnace to get close God.

As a Muslim, I never say:"if", because our prophet Muhamed(pbuh) as
[SIZE=-1]Narrated AbuHurayrah: Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: A strong believer is better and is more lovable to Allah than a weak believer, and there is good in everyone, (but) cherish that which gives you benefit (in the Hereafter) and seek help from Allah and do not lose heart, and if anything (in the form of trouble) comes to you, don't say: If I had not done that, it would not have happened so and so, but say: Allah did that what He had ordained to do and your "if" opens the (gate for the Satan. Sahih Muslim: Book 32, Number 6441.
[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]Also, God teaches us not to say "if" in the sense you meant. He says:"
[/SIZE]
"O ye who believe! Be not like the Unbelievers, who say of their brethren, when they are travelling through the Earth or engaged in fighting: "If they had stayed with us, they would not have died, or been slain." This that Allah may make it a cause of sighs and regrets in their hearts. It is Allah that gives Life and Death, and Allah sees well all that ye do. (3:156)

[SIZE=-1]Of course, here we are not talking about actions we do,transgressing God's teachings.

God is the Protector, but we have to protect our relation with Him by following His teachings:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Ibin Abass narrated that one day he was riding behind Allah's Messenger and he said, "Young man, if you are mindful of Allah, He will be mindful of you, and if you are mindful of Allah, you will find Him before you. When you ask for anything, ask it from Allah, and if you seek help, seek help in Allah. Know that if the people were to unite to do you some benefit, they could benefit you only what Allah has recorded for you, and if they were to unite to do you some injury, they could injure you only with what Allah has recorded for you. The pens are withdrawn and the pages are dry. Ahmad and Tirmidhi (sahih).[/SIZE]

 

[arthra]

Alex wrote:

I would want unicorns to come soaring from the skies!!!! Angels to descend with shining white light armor and swords of pure fire. God to peek out from the clouds and let his voice boom over the world

Of course if that really happened who would doubt there was a God. Too many theatrical displays of miracles are expected... or maybe too much caffeine in your coffee?

The Divine and human interaction is a subtle one not easily portrayed by Charlton Heston.

I suspect that what it takes for some then is not what it would take for others... For me I enjoy history and seeing the odds of some one being able to withstand cruel persecution for years as being a sort of "proof of truth"...

and of course then there are the "fruits" of a life lived in service and certitude that need to be looked at...

- Art

 

[17th Angel]

Dail: Thanks for the post brother!!!

Art: With the unicorn parts and so on.. I think you missed my point.

Vaj: Belife isn't a choice?

Wil: Interesting thoughts, When the student isn't ready? When is a student ready?

 

[seattlegal]

Alex, why don't you just look for evidence that can't possibly be a product of your own mind? Surprises are good!

 

[Tao_Equus]

I remember a character on one of the Star Trek series called "Q", obviously no relation to our own incomparable Q!. He/it was meant to be some kind of highly evolved immortal life form that could at a whim turns planets to dust, juggle with stars or whatever else took his fancy. Now the universe is pretty big, it is possible that out there somewhere there is such beings. Not Gods, just evolved creatures like ourselves capable of biblical scale acts of creation and destruction. But they are still not God.

Every personal story of discovery I hear is precisely that, personal. They can present no proof to a third party that it is not all just a figment of their imagination. It is less concrete even than the fiction of Rodenberry where at least the viewers can have some sort of shared fictional experience.

For a moment lets accept that the 'finding of God' is something real beyond the construct of imagination/longing etc. Then so what! Makes not one blind bit of difference to our daily realities of putting food on the table and paying the bills. Does not, except by the adoption of lifestyle changes you could make regardless of the epiphany, make the bad people good, does not end suffering, injustice, prejudice and hatred. It just makes you feel good. Thats all. Outside of you it is meaningless. Irrelevant.


Nothing would make me accept God is relevant. Every story I hear of 'finding Him' is to my mind someone finding a part of themselves. How they get there is another question I am dealing with elsewhere. That there is no watching, judging, vengeful or merciful God that interferes with life on our planet I am as certain of as the sun will rise tomorrow. All our notions of God are our creations and nothing more.


tao

 

[Bellator]

Vaj: Belife isn't a choice?

Could you choose to believe that the sky is purple? Could you choose to believe that you can walk through walls?

For me, my beliefs about God were not choices any more than these are. I was on the road to atheism for a long time. I didn't want to disbelieve in God, but it just didn't make sense to me. For lack of a better term, it became obvious to me.

 

[17th Angel]

You didn't then choose to begin faith within YHWH? (I am assuming you're christian, sorry if I'm wrong ...) Lacking faith and trust in god, doesn't mean he shall do the same.... Obvious or not I still see it is choice... You must use your freewill... Or it is as pointless as using cheats on a computer game.... (god mode example) there is no reward, there is no point....

Smokings obviously dangerous.... Obviously... It can kill.. So... No one smokes? (not trying to be funny... just trying to put it in perspective....)

 

[Bellator]

You didn't then choose to begin faith within YHWH? (I am assuming you're christian, sorry if I'm wrong ...)

Maybe I worded it poorly. I started out Christian and am now an atheist.


Ok, there is some choice involved in belief, but it's not anywhere near the kind of choice you have for what clothes you wear, what you eat, or what you do for a living. If something is very obviously one way, it is nearly impossible to choose to believe the opposite. Again, using the God example, I became an atheist before I admitted it to myself. I told myself I still believed in God, but whenever I heard someone talk about God, my gut reaction was "I don't believe in that"

I'm afraid I don't understand your video game analogy... or your smoking analogy. .

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Alex,

thank you for the post.

Vaj: Belife isn't a choice?

correct. beings come to hold the beliefs they have through a myriad of processes but none of them are choice. indeed, it could be fairly said that many of these processes are unknown to our conscious mind and thus we have the impression that our new belief is our choice.

of course the whole idea of having a choice in our beliefs is predicated upon the idea that humans have a will which is free and if one lacks this particular view then the idea of a chosen belief simply doesn't come to pass.

on a more pragmatic level we see that beliefs arise in beings due to culture, society, familial and individual influences.

metta,

~v

 

[lunamoth]

Namaste Alex,

thank you for the post.



correct. beings come to hold the beliefs they have through a myriad of processes but none of them are choice. indeed, it could be fairly said that many of these processes are unknown to our conscious mind and thus we have the impression that our new belief is our choice.

of course the whole idea of having a choice in our beliefs is predicated upon the idea that humans have a will which is free and if one lacks this particular view then the idea of a chosen belief simply doesn't come to pass.

on a more pragmatic level we see that beliefs arise in beings due to culture, society, familial and individual influences.

metta,

~v

Hi Vaj,

If there is no free will, then are we still responsible for our actions?

 

[earl]

Where I see these kinds of debates getting hung up is in the very definition of God-when one defines God as a deity or personal being, then "all hell breaks loose."

On the other hand, if we leave God to be some great Otherness which seems to peek out at us from behind our usual small self, a sense of "something more than" our usual sense of self, it's not such a leap. earl

 

[Dogbrain]

Nothing would make me accept God is relevant.

In other words, you are completely convinced of your faith and no evidence at all would ever change that.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste lunamoth,

thank you for the post.

Hi Vaj,

If there is no free will, then are we still responsible for our actions?

from my point of view this question doesn't make much sense.. it's a category error. actions have consequences even if the beings involved do not have free will which is articulated through the Buddhist exposition of kamma and vipaka.

metta,

~v

 

[earl]

Namaste lunamoth,

thank you for the post.



from my point of view this question doesn't make much sense.. it's a category error. actions have consequences even if the beings involved do not have free will which is articulated through the Buddhist exposition of kamma and vipaka.

metta,

~v

Or, you could say we have responsive-ability. Our responses moment to moment represent a sort of feedback loop conditioning each succeeding moment. earl

 

[Nick_A]

Or, you could say we have responsive-ability. Our responses moment to moment represent a sort of feedback loop conditioning each succeeding moment. earl

Yes this is karma. Free will is a function of consciousness. We lack consciousness so consequently are governed by desire. Response to desire is often taken as free will but lacking consciousness it is still a reaction to a choice of continuing daily desires.

Man asleep in Plato's cave is no more responsible than a dog. What can a reactive creature be responsible for? Responsibility begins with sustained conscious awareness and the free will associated with it..

 

[DT Strain]

Answering the original post in this thread:

It's very simple, whether you're talking about gods, spirits, electricity, magnetism, ESP, bigfoot, cold fusion, life on mars, etc - the same principle applies: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Or, to put it another way, the degree of belief/confidence in a proposition should be proportionate to the degree of evidence. And, by 'evidence' I mean empirical evidence reliably verifiable by others (not dreams, feelings, unverifiable anecdotes, or inner experiences some mean by the word).

When it comes to God claim, we have no evidence. Therefore, no belief in that claim is the rational position. Of course, many things are possible and it could just be that we have no evidence yet, or even no way to obtain evidence. Yet, until or unless we do, it would be irrational to hold a belief in such a claim - if that means we don't have a way of knowing certain things, then that's called humble acceptance of our limitations as human beings. We are imperfect and limited in our ability to know things. That seems right to me, anyway - but I'm always open to other lines of thought about the issue.

Oh, and in particular where worship and gods are concerned:
I will consider any being that wants me to worship it. All they need do is apply for worship consideration, along with reasons why I should worship them. But the key thing is, I don't accept middlemen, representatives, or alleged letters - all applications must be made in person.

So far, there have been no applicants, but I will definitely let you all know if there are.

I was just pondering over a cup of coffee... Not sure If I meant this to be a thread of discussion or just a note to think about... (Laymens term I have no idea where I am going with this....)

I know there are many out there already that do have faith in a god, but those that do not, I was thinking of them... And the classic question of what would it take for you to believe?

And millions of ideas seem to rush to our minds (or at least mine) I would want unicorns to come soaring from the skies!!!! Angels to descend with shining white light armor and swords of pure fire. God to peek out from the clouds and let his voice boom over the world! The end to evil! pain! one..... million dollars!!! *puts his small pinky to his mouth and poses*

And then I was thinking... it is interesting you see people make these claims, this large demands of something that would be needed for them to believe, but then can't help but notice in the end for many that did not but now do, it was something on a much smaller scale of things that opens them up to belife.. And what I also find interesting is how it is such a personal level.... I can't recall but someone recently said that god deals with us individually and will reach to us all in different ways. And I kind of understand that now.

I was also thinking about how perhaps somtimes may our lives been endanger, we could of been in serious problems and such.... if this had happened, If i had done this, If I had left the house 2mins earlier... If I hadn't decided to stop and see how my mother was.... And I know life is something truly to be thankful for, but I wonder how aware we are of any guardian/protector/maintance/guide of our lives...

"why doesn't god do this for me!!!! or that for me?"

And hey who knows maybe 30mins before we begin to complain about something if we were not guided perhaps we'd not be alive to complain? Ok I am gonna stop cause I have rambled and I still cannot express what I am trying to lol....