The myth of free will

[winner08]

Who believes that there is no such thing as free will. That the rule of law effects everything and everyone. The rule of law when dealing with free will or free choice are as followed. Every choice we make is caused by something. Cause and effect. Plain and simple. The Lord cause's our situations and we choose. One can not,, not do God's Will. Whatever the situation is we choose according to God's Will. There can not be any other choice. If one believes that God is all powerful and knows the end from the beginning, that He is a soveregn God, then His will will always be done. Therefore every decssion we make has already been predetermind by God's Will As in the Our Father prayer. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Darren

 

[lunamoth]

In that case

1) all the suffering we experience really is God's will and he is evil and not worthy of worship

and

2) no one is really responsible for their actions and so there can be no system of ethics

 

[Quahom1]

In that case

1) all the suffering we experience really is God's will and he is evil and not worthy of worship

and

2) no one is really responsible for their actions and so there can be no system of ethics

So, circumstances determine our will? I don't think so.

If that were the case, John McCain would not exist, let alone running for president...

 

[lunamoth]

So, circumstances determine our will? I don't think so.

If that were the case, John McCain would not exist, let alone running for president...

Um, Q, I was disagreeing with the OP. Circumstances effect us, but I do not believe in hard determinism, where every choice we make is inevitable because of the plethora of causes which preceded it.

I think we do have free will. My points were made as arguments against the OP.

Not really sure what this has to do with John McCain though....

 

[winner08]

In that case

1) all the suffering we experience really is God's will and he is evil and not worthy of worship

and

2) no one is really responsible for their actions and so there can be no system of ethics

1) Well lets take a look at God's Will for a moment. God's Will for His only Son whom He LOVED so much, He sent to suffer a brutal beating and a terrible death. Would you still say that God is evil and not worthy of worship. I am sure Jesus would disagree with you.

2) Wrong again. everyone is responsible for their action. How you ask? Well ,God only dictates our situation. WE make OUR own choice reguarding that situation we find ourselves in. hence, cause and effect.

Darren

PS that was a couple of great questions.

 

[lunamoth]

1) Well lets take a look at God's Will for a moment. God's Will for His only Son whom He LOVED so much, He sent to suffer a brutal beating and a terrible death. Would you still say that God is evil and not worthy of worship. I am sure Jesus would disagree with you.

I don't believe that it was God's will that Jesus be tortured & killed.

2) Wrong again. everyone is responsible for their action. How you ask? Well ,God only dictates our situation. WE make OUR own choice reguarding that situation we find ourselves in. hence, cause and effect.

Then it seems you do believe in free will.

Darren

PS that was a couple of great questions.

Thanks.

 

[winner08]

Um, Q, I was disagreeing with the OP. Circumstances effect us, but I do not believe in hard determinism, where every choice we make is inevitable because of the plethora of causes which preceded it.

I think we do have free will. My points were made as arguments against the OP.

Not really sure what this has to do with John McCain though....

You say that you do not believe that every choice you make is inevitable because of the plethora of causes which preceded it.

Think about what you just said. if not for the plethora of causes that preceded your choice how could you even make a choice?

If you are on your way to work and at a certain street you always make a right turn. This time however they have a wreck at that street, so you take a left. You took that left CAUSE of the wreck. making the left turn instead of the right is the effect of the wreck. the (wreck caused you to make that choice) the effect of that choice is a left turn.

It really is simple. It is impossible to make a free choice. IMPOSSIBLE. Nobody can make a choice without something to cause that choice to be made. If this is not true please give me a sample.

 

[lunamoth]

You say that you do not believe that every choice you make is inevitable because of the plethora of causes which preceded it.

Think about what you just said. if not for the plethora of causes that preceded your choice how could you even make a choice?

If you are on your way to work and at a certain street you always make a right turn. This time however they have a wreck at that street, so you take a left. You took that left CAUSE of the wreck. making the left turn instead of the right is the effect of the wreck. the (wreck caused you to make that choice) the effect of that choice is a left turn.

It really is simple. It is impossible to make a free choice. IMPOSSIBLE. Nobody can make a choice without something to cause that choice to be made. If this is not true please give me a sample.

As I said to Q, our situation effects our choice and places limits on it, but it does not determine the outcome. Perhaps by 'free will' you mean completely unlimited choice, which I would agree with you is impossible. We are limited by all kinds of things. But by free will I mean that when facing a situation we are able to make a choice that is not predetermined by all that came before it.

An old lady falls in front of you. Your choices are limited by the situation, but you still choose whether to help her or walk around her. That is free will.

 

[winner08]

I don't believe that it was God's will that Jesus be tortured & killed.


Then it seems you do believe in free will.


Thanks.

If you believe that God is sovergen that His will is always done, then yes it was God's will for Jesus to be tortured and killed. If you believe that Jesus died for all mankind's sins then what happen was the only choice, it had to happen the way that it did.

Like I said Our action and choices that we make our determind by causes. Cause and effect. We make the choice but the choice that we make can only be that choice, because of the causes that made us make the choice that we made.

Simple

 

[lunamoth]

Like I said Our action and choices that we make our determind by causes. Cause and effect. We make the choice but the choice that we make can only be that choice, because of the causes that made us make the choice that we made.

Simple

If we have no choice then there can be no responsibility for our actions, and no ethics.

 

[lunamoth]

If you believe that God is sovergen that His will is always done, then yes it was God's will for Jesus to be tortured and killed. If you believe that Jesus died for all mankind's sins then what happen was the only choice, it had to happen the way that it did.

God is sovereign but free will means that God has limited Godself to allow us real choice, choice to turn to Him or not (among other things).

In the face of God Who loves us perfectly, and shows us that power comes from love, not the sword, we chose to kill God. The evil we created in the face of God's love was perfectly absorbed, and somehow exhausted, by this act. A love so perfect that it conquers death and evil once and for all.

Did it have to happen this way? I don't know. Like for the disciples, it happened and we are left to make sense of it, based upon our experience of God with us in Jesus and the risen Christ.

 

[winner08]

As I said to Q, our situation effects our choice and places limits on it, but it does not determine the outcome. Perhaps by 'free will' you mean completely unlimited choice, which I would agree with you is impossible. We are limited by all kinds of things. But by free will I mean that when facing a situation we are able to make a choice that is not predetermined by all that came before it.

An old lady falls in front of you. Your choices are limited by the situation, but you still choose whether to help her or walk around her. That is free will.

If an old lady falls in front of me the choice I make rather to help or not is already determind by God's will If God will is for me to help then it will happen if not that would happen.

This can keep on going like the entergizer bunny. One more question Do you believe that God is a sovereign God. (sovereign) chief of state, supreme, independent). His will will always be done (always).

Darren

 

[lunamoth]

If an old lady falls in front of me the choice I make rather to help or not is already determind by God's will If God will is for me to help then it will happen if not that would happen.

If an old lady fall in front of you, God wills (commands actually) that you love her however you are able (the most obvious way being to help her get up IMO ). If you choose to turn your heart toward God, if you have practiced a God-centered/love-centered life, you know this. God's will acts on your heart, but you still choose.

This can keep on going like the entergizer bunny. One more question Do you believe that God is a sovereign God. (sovereign) chief of state, supreme, independent). His will will always be done (always).

Darren

Answered above.

 

[ChristineES]

I have a few questions:
If there is no free will, then why are we given choices?
Why do we have experiences to learn by?
What is even the use of having a mind if we can't make choices?

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Who believes that there is no such thing as free will. That the rule of law effects everything and everyone. The rule of law when dealing with free will or free choice are as followed. Every choice we make is caused by something. Cause and effect. Plain and simple. The Lord cause's our situations and we choose. One can not,, not do God's Will. Whatever the situation is we choose according to God's Will. There can not be any other choice. If one believes that God is all powerful and knows the end from the beginning, that He is a soveregn God, then His will will always be done. Therefore every decssion we make has already been predetermind by God's Will As in the Our Father prayer. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Darren

You sounds like the character on an episode of TNG.
Professor James Moriaty (hologram).

here a link....Its a scarry thought.

Read the link and you will understand how it realtes to what you are saying.


James Moriarty (hologram) - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

 

[winner08]

I have a few questions:
If there is no free will, then why are we given choices?
Why do we have experiences to learn by?
What is even the use of having a mind if we can't make choices?

All I have said is that we a will it just is not free.

we all have choices it just is not free.

God gave us a mind in order that we can process the circumstances that will dictate the choices we make.

This is why we have experiences, to learn.

Let's try it this way.

Let say you don't want to be saved, then God is going to make circumstances dictate that you must be saved.
God's will bring about His purpose and plan so that in the end we will all volunteer to choose to be saved.

Is this so hard to understand?

if men and women are free to do right and good and to choose God why haven't they?
Why must God draw(drag) correct translation.us to Christ John 6:44

Look yall it is simmple, All i said is that we do not posess free will or free choices. Cause and effect. Someone causes us to make the decssioins that we make. That is all I said. The Lord does the causes and we make the choices. The choices we make was already in God's Will therefore it is His Will that is done not ours. So our will was not free.

This is fun (yea right)

Darren

 

[juantoo3]

Look yall it is simmple, All i said is that we do not posess free will or free choices. Cause and effect. Someone causes us to make the decssioins that we make. That is all I said. The Lord does the causes and we make the choices. The choices we make was already in God's Will therefore it is His Will that is done not ours. So our will was not free.

I think you are attempting to oversimplify.

First, predestination...which includes preordinated will...negates the Ten Commandments and any need at all for moral and ethical training. In other words, there would be *NO* good and *NO* evil, everything would be fair game. Murder would be fair game, rape would be fair game, theft would be fair game...yet the Bible and most religious texts I am aware of clearly state that these are not fair game.

Second, because our will is limited by circumstances does not negate "free will." Why would I use some obscure ancient Chinese trading contract or a Roman concrete recipe to make a decision today about whether or not to clean my room? You are avoiding the obvious by attempting to confuse with irrelevent details.

Third, G-d (in the Bible) makes it pretty clear that it is an invitation, a choice (otherwise defined as free will), to "listen to Him" or not. While He may provide opportunity for some to "come to Him," it is pretty obvious to anybody with a hint of cross-cultural observation that this is not a given. This premise is based solely from a Western / Christian perspective, completely ignoring a laundry list of other valid cultural perspectives, some of which not only do not recognize the Christian G-d but deny His existence outright.

Fourth, and most importantly, love is nothing if it is not freely given.

Let me say that again to drive it home: love is NOTHING if it is not freely given.

G-d freely gave us love, and He allows us the freedom to return that love, or not.

If our choices are not free, then the love we give to G-d is meaningless. G-d can create all the little minions He desires to march in circles around His throne mouthing "I love you G-d, I love you G-d" for eternity, and it will not be real love.

The love that is freely given, and freely returned, is true love. Anything else is not love.

BTW, welcome to Interfaith, winner.

 

[Quahom1]

You sounds like the character on an episode of TNG.
Professor James Moriaty (hologram).

here a link....Its a scarry thought.

Read the link and you will understand how it realtes to what you are saying.


James Moriarty (hologram) - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

Holograms don't listen either YO. They can't deviate from their programming...but once random chance is introduced into the matrix, then...who knows what could happen? We see this in nature, in our own bodies even (free radicals comes to mind), and it can change everything.

Unlike angels, or matter, humans are free radicals, and unpredictable.

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Holograms don't listen either YO. They can't deviate from their programming...but once random chance is introduced into the matrix, then...who knows what could happen? e see this in nature, in our own bodies even (free radicals comes to mind), and it can change everything.

Unlike angels, or matter, humans are free radicals, and unpredictable.

The ponit I was tring to make was that he became aware of what was going on. Beyond the will of the machine and people that controled him.

 

[Dogbrain]

1) Well lets take a look at God's Will for a moment. God's Will for His only Son whom He LOVED so much, He sent to suffer a brutal beating and a terrible death. Would you still say that God is evil and not worthy of worship. I am sure Jesus would disagree with you.

If there is no free will, then every evil act is done by God's intent to do evil, not the choice of the person who merely appears to do evil.

2) Wrong again. everyone is responsible for their action. How you ask? Well ,God only dictates our situation. WE make OUR own choice reguarding that situation we find ourselves in. hence, cause and effect.

If there is no free will, we do not make our own choices, and therefore have no responsibility for our actions.